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Old 06-10-2008, 08:04 PM   #51
Peacock's-Eye
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The fridge doesn't bother me.

In LC Indy is garroted with a chain for like 5 minutes straight on top of a moving tank - he pops up without even a scar! He then gets his face rubbed against the pleated wheels of the tank!!! No scar! Nothing! He launches himself from a plane on an inflatable raft in TOD and cures himself of terminal poisoning in about 5 seconds flat thanks to a fictional "antidote". In Raiders he recovers from the truck chase in a single night - and hey, he even finds time to make love to Marion - and then he rides a submarine periscope for untold miles! How do you avoid divine wrath by closing your eyes?? Isn't that a little childish if considered critically? How can someone have their heart ripped out & still go on living? Why does fire free you from psychedelic hypnosis? How can the Hebrew religion, the Hindu religion, Voodoo & medieval Christianity all be literally true?

There is nothing realistic about this character.

In Young Indy he meets every famous person in existence between 1908 & 1920.

No incarnation of this character could possibly exist!

Hey, that's what I like about him.
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:33 PM   #52
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Movie reality...

Peacock - the trilogy established a reality within reality (or movie reality) but I never questioned what was going on in that reality. I'm not comparing fictional events with life as you and I know it. What I'm saying is that the new movie violates its own reality and crosses over into cartoon land -- where Indy feels no pain, encounters no real danger (he survives a nuke for heaven's sake), and no real jeopardy is felt. At least in the trilogy there was tension, drama, action -- all driving the films forward. But the new film falls flat for me. But that's me.

If you found KOTCS as good or better than that's your prerogative. I'll stick with the trilogy. In fact, I think it's time for another viewing of Raiders... just to cleanse the palette.
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:43 PM   #53
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Indy sure looks like he's in pain when Dovchenko's knocking him around in Area 51 or the jungle. And when he rolls out of the 'fridge. And a dozen other places. I just don't see how this one is different from the others. It seems like people are going out of their way to separate it out.
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:46 PM   #54
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What can I say...

let's agree to disagree.
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:17 PM   #55
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Heh heh.
Sure you want to be screenwriter?
Just look at these boards - it's like being shark bait!
Maybe it's better to remain 'safely anonymous'...
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:26 PM   #56
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Nuke in SOD...

compare the nuke scene in KOTCS with SOD - mine comes at the end (another little similarity). My nuke scene emphasizes the power and destructive force of an atomic weapon and becomes a REAL danger to Indy and the world. But the nuke scene in KOTCS was set up as a site-gag, or comic relief.

Sorry... but the new movie doesn't live up to its predecessors and Lucas and Spielberg - IMHO - forgot what excited them about the Indy character in the first place.
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:59 PM   #57
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I finished SOD. This is just my opinion, but...

1. Was the pagination correct? 177 pages? Dude, that's like a 4 hour movie! 90 pages is average for a feature film of about 1hr 45mins.

2. I'm sure you learned alot writing this & that you're more recent, original stuff is head & shoulders above this. It's impressive for its ambitious scope. But the characters seemed flat to me, and there was way too much dialogue.

3. The story takes far too long to wind up to the pitch.

IMO, KCS is a far more polished entertainment, very sure of its footing (even when it goes places some of the audience don't want to follow). SOD is an interesting experiment, and daring to try and break into screen writing with a spec script for an established series (pretty much a huge no-no). But I can't see Lucas coveting a 200 page fan script for 12 years and seeding a huge production with references to torment a single freelance writer!
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:09 PM   #58
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Mate...

of course the new movie is polished entertainment... they spent 20 years developing it and another 185 mil to produce it... my script was a second draft written 12 years ago, and it certainly doesn't reflect my abilities today...

re: page count - the film would've been about 3 hours at that page count - a minute per page is approximate. With trimming... it would've sat at 2.5 hours... isn't that the running time of the new film.

Thanks for the great feedback though.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:16 PM   #59
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Clarification...

I'm NOT in anyway suggesting Lucas took my screenplay and produced it page by page... I'm simply putting forth the idea that he paid homage to my script because of our sordid history and because the new movie shares elements with my script... that's all.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:21 PM   #60
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Um, "1 minute per page" just doesn't work in the real world - ever. Sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less. And you don't count for cuts in a screenplay - that's for the shooting script. 177 pages gets you a heap o' movie, like "Lawrence of Arabia"!

>>I'm simply putting forth the idea that he paid homage to my script because of our sordid history and because the new movie shares elements with my script.<<
That's what I said, dude. "Seeding references"...
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:23 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
With trimming... it would've sat at 2.5 hours... isn't that the running time of the new film.
Nah, KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL was just 2 hours.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:31 PM   #62
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Mate...

Seriously, I've been at this game 20 years now... I think I know a little bit about this business and what goes on in it... so c'mon... gimme a break. I'm impressed with your comments but I'm not interested in debating these points to death. Thank you for your feedback, and good luck with your own writing.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:33 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
compare the nuke scene in KOTCS with SOD - mine comes at the end (another little similarity). My nuke scene emphasizes the power and destructive force of an atomic weapon and becomes a REAL danger to Indy and the world. But the nuke scene in KOTCS was set up as a site-gag, or comic relief.

Sorry... but the new movie doesn't live up to its predecessors and Lucas and Spielberg - IMHO - forgot what excited them about the Indy character in the first place.

Yes, but.... SMFM happened in 1995 and had the Doomtown sequence (yeah, the fridge and rocketsled too and it was believe it or not, more serious in that version, Indy has a conversation about the A bomb with a general in the script). I have now pretty much read SoD. I do like the biblical take, but frankly I prefer the way Mutt was handled in the film, than 11 year old Abner. You've better off sueing the people who made Mummy Returns. They had an 11 year old in that, who did that kind of stuff. The script got better as it went along, but all the Abner staying over at Indy's and the way Indy treats him, I'm not quite sure about. Indy really quickly changes his mind about the kid, yeah I get the feeling sorry for him angle, but even so....

Marion isn't an alco either. Could you imagine how much Marion would have to drink before getting to that stage? As a Marion fan, I feel compelled to defend her by saying she did what she did in Nepal because that was a way of getting by. And if I know the Marion character well enough, I'd say she's too strong a woman to get herself that way. She may love Indy, but she has never let that sort of stuff get in her way. She spent 10 years in Nepal and got stronger for it and didn't break, so why break down now just because she's got no man?

In any case, yes I do agree that Lucas probably seeded some references from SoD, but there was a heck of a lot more in the case of SMFM.
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:37 PM   #64
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Violet Indy...

Great feedback. Thank you.
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Old 06-10-2008, 11:02 PM   #65
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Only 2 hours?

Agent... really... only 2 hours? It felt like an eternity.

I kid coz I love.

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Old 06-11-2008, 02:36 AM   #66
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Let's apply a little logic...

Firstly, the mound of sand... why does it exist?

Was it concocted to set up the prairie-dogs? Or were the prairie-dogs invented to justify the mound of sand? Naturally, Lucas wouldn't match dissolve to a mound of sand for the sake of a mound of sand... so he had to justify the mound with the prairie-dog addition.

In my script, the mound of sand was symbolic of Mt. Ararat and in keeping with the religious theme of my screenplay, and to further drive this home I have a child place a dried-out piece of wood on top to represent Noah's Ark. And that's how I justified the mound of sand in SOD.

So... did Lucas have a brainstorm one day and think how clever it would be to match dissolve to a prairie-dog mound because they're just so darn cute, or did he need to justify the mound when he decided to give SOD a nod?

Secondly, there is another possible reason for the mound of sand in the new movie, and it occurred to me just after I finished my script in 95...that the mound of sand in SOD was MY nod to Lucas' and Spielberg's first Indy meeting on the beach in Hawaii in the 70s.

With that new information, the mound of sand could very well be Lucas paying homage to their first meeting on the beach. But if that were the case... then why not match dissolve to a sand castle/mound, which could easily have been incorporated into the American Graffiti-style opening sequence...?

Furthermore, the alien resurrection scene can't be simply coincidence -- and yes I know so many here have said it is -- but you haven't convinced me yet.

So once again I find myself back at the beginning... and wondering... is the mound of sand a nod to SOD?
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:33 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
Was it concocted to set up the prairie-dogs? Or were the prairie-dogs invented to justify the mound of sand?
The former, I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
Furthermore, the alien resurrection scene can't be simply coincidence -- and yes I know so many here have said it is -- but you haven't convinced me yet.
Well, now that we have the Darabont draft, we can clearly see the origins of the "alien resurrection" scene. And its origins are different enough from your draft that I think it demonstrates that Lucas wasn't raiding your script. At least during that scene.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:00 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agentsands77
The former, I believe.


Well, now that we have the Darabont draft, we can clearly see the origins of the "alien resurrection" scene. And its origins are different enough from your draft that I think it demonstrates that Lucas wasn't raiding your script. At least during that scene.

Was the Darabont draft leaked recently? Where is it? And what does Darabont's draft have to do with my script written 13 years ago? Darabont could have easily read my script if it was source material during the writing of his script. This isn't about what came first, the chicken or the egg... the alien resurrection scene mimics my Unclean Son resurrection scene. The Unclean Son resurrection scene was first - written 13 years ago. So... I don't think it demonstrates anything other than Darabont wrote the alien resurrection scene.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:23 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
Was the Darabont draft leaked recently? Where is it?
Check the KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
And what does Darabont's draft have to do with my script written 13 years ago?
Read it. The alien resurrection scene in Darabont's draft isn't anything like yours, but it still plants the seeds for how it would later evolve in Koepp's final form. So much so, that there doesn't have to be any involvement from SONS OF DARKNESS to explain away the similarities in the finished product... it could just have naturally evolved out of what Darabont wrote.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:40 PM   #70
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Good point...

But it could have naturally evolved out of what I wrote as well... and we're not talking about just a scene here, but actions within the scene. I understand your point... but there's still nothing saying my script wasn't sourced over the years, and remnants remain in the final product. Clutching at straws perhaps... but I'm still not convinced.
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Old 06-11-2008, 08:47 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Rob Smith
I understand your point... but there's still nothing saying my script wasn't sourced over the years, and remnants remain in the final product.
Actually, there's plenty suggesting your script would never have been involved in any sourcing whatsoever. Largely because of legal issues. There's no real reason to believe it was read by anyone other than Lucasfilm's legal division.

Quote:
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Clutching at straws perhaps... but I'm still not convinced.
There's no real reason to believe it *was* sourced. So the burden of proof is on you, and so far, you've provided nothing other than improbable speculation.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:01 PM   #72
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Roundabout...

Your points are just as speculative as mine, because they are assumptions on your part. There's no hard and fast evidence that the only people to have read SOD were Lucas' legal team -- that is your assumption based on no real evidence other than what you believe. I know for a fact that the lawyer I spoke with did read the script because he told me he did, just to verify its contents. And who's to say that my script wasn't re-examined once the dust settled? Or years later?

Sorry... still not convinced.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Rob Smith
Your points are just as speculative as mine, because they are assumptions on your part.
But they're logical assumptions to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
There's no hard and fast evidence that the only people to have read SOD were Lucas' legal team -- that is your assumption based on no real evidence other than what you believe.
It's based on evidence on how these kinds of situations work. Any lawyer worth their salt, as Lucas would have had, would have clearly advised Lucas not to read your script because of the potential entanglements.

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Originally Posted by Rob Smith
I know for a fact that the lawyer I spoke with did read the script because he told me he did, just to verify its contents.
Well sure. It's obvious the legal team would examine it. That's their job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
And who's to say that my script wasn't re-examined once the dust settled? Or years later?
Because of the legal problems involved, which would still be present years later.

And I highly doubt there would be any interest once the dust settled. I doubt Lucas would ever give a damn about a fan script, no matter how big the phenomenon was. It's wishful thinking indeed to think that SONS OF DARKNESS ever really caught GL's attention to begin with beyond a few memos from his legal division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Smith
Sorry... still not convinced.
It's not my job to convince you. I'm not making the positive statement. The burden of proof is on you. Why on earth would Lucas have read your script?

Last edited by agentsands77 : 06-11-2008 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:41 PM   #74
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Fair enough...

and your logic is sound... but I gotta go with my gut on this. It could be all wishful thinking as you say... but stranger things have happened. And until Lucas says either way, it's all speculation, theory, or delusions of grandeur on my part.

Food for thought. Thanks for the logical rebuttal.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:08 PM   #75
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Darabont script...

where the heck is it?

I looked through the KOTCS thread -- but it's like wading through an ocean of words. Can someone please point me in the right direction? Grassyass.
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