Kingdom #1 on Total Film 50 most disappointing list

JP Jones

New member
Dr.Jonesy said:
What sucks is I'm on another forum trying to defend 'The Dark Knight Rises' from the same 'majority thinks it sucks, that includes fans, filmgoers and critics' argument that people all over the net are saying.

Aye yai yai...
:p
What forum is that? I've been wanting to talk about that film, and only a handful of people here seem to care.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
JP Jones said:
What forum is that? I've been wanting to talk about that film, and only a handful of people here seem to care.

Oh, I was on YouTube's comments section and the IMDb forum. Also on AICN.net. Check the IMDB forum, if you want. If you want intelligent discussion about the film, go to SuperHeroHype's forums and join. Alot of great people there and it's always active.
:)

But I'm over at IMDb doing damage control. Alot of people on there giving TDKR a wrath of crap and trying to make it seem like everyone (majority opinion) is let down/hates it. Grrr. I love talking about what worked/didn't work with a film as long as it's courteous and with good intentions, I hate outright bashing and downright trolling. If I say I love the film I gotta deflect blows over there. I just want some intelligent discussion dang it! :p
 
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The main problem, especially with members of an Indiana Jones fan site, is trading nostalgia for quality.

By and large here at the Raven, disappointing is an accurate description of the majority opinion.
 

kongisking

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
You're so moved to deride and simply label "haters" I'd love to read something substantial from you. Obviously the film appeals to you but who would know why?

I was just giving haters a hard time when I said that, dude. I really wasn't trying to sound pompous with it. I like to poke at people I don't agree with, but I usually just do it in good fun. Just ask my buddy Stoo. He despises Batman, but I'm constantly giving him hell for it.

And I'll post here what I've discussed with Jonesy, as I think it's a good point:

I think its just that the haters are louder and more obnoxious, and therefore they tend to drown out the calm, reasonable voices of the lovers. That's why people have deluded themselves into thinking KOTCS is considered an all-round awful film, when it really is nothing of the sort, and most critics agree.

And let's not forget that when it first came out, reviews were quite warm. But once the fan backlash started, critics, in a desperate attempt to regain credibility with the fanboys, went back on what they said and began to bash it as well. Aint it Cool News is a particular example of that.

Yeah, it's quite tragic how some can bring themselves to hate a Jones adventure, as the Indy films really do represent the epitome of the medium's possibilities for making simple, fun, jolly good entertainment.
 
kongisking said:
I was just giving haters a hard time when I said that, dude. I really wasn't trying to sound pompous with it. I like to poke at people I don't agree with, but I usually just do it in good fun. Just ask my buddy Stoo. He despises Batman, but I'm constantly giving him hell for it.

Whoops! Stepped in the middle of a "fake fight"...sorry! :eek:

Please continue
 
<iframe src="http://blip.tv/play/AYOCqBUC.html?p=1" width="100%" height="100%" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Moles
animal reaction cut shots
CGI
Aliens
Overly self reverent
Nuke the Fridge
New impotent characters
Exposition to exlain the logic problems
CGI
Exposition to explain why we should care
CGI
Exposition instead of illustration
Graveyard Ninjas
Indiana Jones vs Crystal Skull:The Staring Contest
Mary "Disappointment" Williams
Mutt:King of the Jungle
Rubber Tree
3 Drops
Indians waiting in the walls
+ CGI
______________________________________________
Disappointment.333333333333333333333333333333333
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Moles
animal reaction cut shots
CGI
Aliens
Overly self reverent
Nuke the Fridge
New impotent characters
Exposition to exlain the logic problems
CGI
Exposition to explain why we should care
CGI
Exposition instead of illustration
Graveyard Ninjas
Indiana Jones vs Crystal Skull:The Staring Contest
Mary "Disappointment" Williams
Mutt:King of the Jungle
Rubber Tree
3 Drops
Indians waiting in the walls
+ CGI
______________________________________________
Disappointment.333333333333333333333333333333333

Agreed!! While I like the film enough to watch it, it was extremely disappointing and for most of the reasons listed by Rocket. It is not the worst movie ever but for what it should have been it was a major let down.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Listening to the critique on Rocket's post, I felt hate for CS, more extreme emotion than I might normally feel. The critic's mockery was apt, funny and tragically effective at making CS more diminutive than ever. I thought "How?" and "Why?" in regard to how or why they made it that way. I suppose when you concentrate all the bad bits in one long exposition it seems really bad, but to have that many bad bits is really....bad.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Mickiana said:
Listening to the critique on Rocket's post, I felt hate for CS, more extreme emotion than I might normally feel. The critic's mockery was apt, funny and tragically effective at making CS more diminutive than ever. I thought "How?" and "Why?" in regard to how or why they made it that way. I suppose when you concentrate all the bad bits in one long exposition it seems really bad, but to have that many bad bits is really....bad.

I'm not wasting my time with the video, to me it's pandering to a niche audience, as simple as that. All I will say if someone can feel genuine hatred and such strong negative emotions to a simple piece of entertainment even four years after the fact...well to me that is not normal. Normal people let it go and move on.

Bad bits = always subjective/opinion.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Dr. Gonzo said:
As you are pandering to the "true believers" ?

People who are dissatisfied with a film forget about it and move on. Nobody harps on about how bad it is for years to the point where they'll watch someone tear it to shreds in a video; that is a small niche group, yes.

I don't pander to anybody. And with the few people left posting as frequently as I have lately being bitter towards my opinion and the data I share, there's nobody for me to pander to anyway if I wanted to.
 
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Dr. Gonzo

New member
Dr.Jonesy said:
People who are dissatisfied with a film forget about it and move on. Nobody harps on about how bad it is for years to the point where they'll watch someone tear it to shreds in a video; that is a small niche group, yes.

Clearly this must be your first time on the internet.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Dr.Jonesy said:

People who are dissatisfied with a film forget about it and move on. Nobody harps on about how bad it is for years to the point where they'll watch someone tear it to shreds in a video; that is a small niche group, yes.

I don't pander to anybody. And with the few people left posting as frequently as I have lately being bitter towards my opinion and the data I share, there's nobody for me to pander to anyway if I wanted to.

I didn't watch the video but the film is not well put together and to me, while I enjoy it, I find tons of things wrong with it and get why it is considered a disappointment. I can also see why many out there disliked it as well. I expected it to be a whole lot worse and was pleasantly surprised it was decent. But compared to it's predecessors it is very flawed. Some peoples hatred for the film is a bit extreme after 4 years and Jonesy has a point that maybe it's time to move on. I had a huge "hate on" for The Phantom Menace when it came out but over time I have realized "it is what it is" and I can accept the prequels or ignore them. They have grown on me over time and now I enjoy TPM. It's not great, but it is entertaining and now part of SW. KOTCS is the same, it's not great but it is entertaining. But all the points made by the haters are usually valid.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Henry W Jones said:
I didn't watch the video but the film is not well put together and to me, while I enjoy it, I find tons of things wrong with it and get why it is considered a disappointment. I can also see why many out there disliked it as well. I expected it to be a whole lot worse and was pleasantly surprised it was decent. But compared to it's predecessors it is very flawed. Some peoples hatred for the film is a bit extreme after 4 years and Jonesy has a point that maybe it's time to move on. I had a huge "hate on" for The Phantom Menace when it came out but over time I have realized "it is what it is" and I can accept the prequels or ignore them. They have grown on me over time and now I enjoy TPM. It's not great, but it is entertaining and now part of SW. KOTCS is the same, it's not great but it is entertaining. But all the points made by the haters are usually valid.

I don't think all their points are usually valid. It's not often that I agree with their complaints and when I do...it's agitating because it exposes the same issues with the previous two films because they're usually present in those as well. I love what I love about these movies and sure their flaws have crossed my mind. At this point, I've really stopped picking all of them apart. That was 2008. I'm enjoying them to enjoy them now. Whenever I over analyze TOD, TLC or KOTCS I just end up having less fun. Some analytical nitpicks are fine and there's nothing wrong with criticism or discussing it. It's all in how you go about it and I'll discuss it every blue moon. But there comes a time just accept something as it is and either decide to enjoy it in spite of or simply ignore the thing entirely. Either way the fan needs to end up happy and harping on something you didn't like never leaves on happy.

(I'm not directing this at you, Henry); As I always say, if you've got time to feel hurt and angry over a film (no matter what film), then I'd love to have your problems. Everyone should make time for enjoyment of entertainment, nobody should make time to hate something about it, much less for four years.

I understand your point Henry, and it is your opinion and I do respect it.
:hat:
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Dr.Jonesy said:

I don't think all their points are usually valid. It's not often that I agree with their complaints and when I do...it's agitating because it exposes the same issues with the previous two films because they're usually present in those as well. I love what I love about these movies and sure their flaws have crossed my mind.


Just for conversation, what do you agree with as far as the flaws of KOTCS? Like I said I enjoy the movie, flaws and all, so I am just picking your brain. I don't hate the fridge personally or the alien factor. I do dislike the whole delivery of the jungle chase through til they reach the aliens. It's too much CGI and too much outlandish material at once. A little disbelief here and there is fine, but that whole section is ridiculous. I do like the fight by the river in that sequence though ants and all. The ants should have been the little disbelief during that part of the film like the fridge is the disbelief moment in the opening sequence. But the monkey swing, the delivery of the sword fight, vehicles cut in half by huge blades and still run, Spalko driving/crashing over the hero's and no one is hurt, 3 times it drops, the rubber tree, natives hiding in the walls and the over use of CGI was too much in one sequence. They also could of cut back on the references to the first three films throughout the film. Otherwise I find the rest to be decent material.

By the way, does anyone know why Russian soldiers don't have a compass?
 
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Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
I'm gonna keep it brief. My posts have been a tad long winded as of late so I'll just do bullet points. But don't think I think you're trying to be a turd by asking; this is what I like. Good discussion! Flaws are not off limits and I'm happy to discuss it.

Flaws? Hm, well let's see;

-Spalko's psychic powers are left undeveloped.
-We didn't have much stake in Mac exactly.
-Mutt being Indy's son. Would've worked better if he wasn't.
-Indy has a posse after the Jungle Chase. 'Crusade' had this issue as well.
-CGI is a bit dodgy in parts.
-Second act isn't as strong as the first.
-The rubber tree thing. It's not as ridiculous as some other scenes in the series like the raft falling off a 6,000 foot cliff but still. Like the monkey scene, it's how it's shot that is the problem.
-Monkey scene. 'Kingdom' is my 2nd favorite of the series...but hot damn that is horrid! It's not exactly the concept...it's that first shot of Mutt swinging. It's just an awkward shot and so blatant/horrible. It's just terribly directed...I cannot believe it made it off the cutting room floor and into an actual motion picture. The second swing is so much better and tolerable; if the first shot was like that it would have been no big deal.
-After looking into the Skull, Indy should've had some moments of psychosis. Maybe seeing things every once in awhile, trying to keep his head on straight. It turned Oxley insane, it should've made Indy at least a bit trippy.
-Marion's not so great portrayal. They nailed it some parts, failed in many others. Like Marcus and Sallah in Indy III.
-Sets sometimes look like sets. Other times they're amazing. 'Temple' and 'Crusade' suffered from this, as well.
-Spalko should've killed Oxley or Mac on screen; she needed to use that sword!
-Mac should've been redeemed at the end by pushing Indy to safety then dying; thus making his death make sense. I'm still confused as to what happened there.
-Wedding scene is way too overlit and white.
-I loved seeing the Alien; but I think for mystique they should've left him out.
-Spalko's death should've been more gorey like the concept art.
-The 'Indy accused of being a Communist' thing should've been further pushed. That was a great angle. Not done badly at all, but undercooked big time.
-I really love the Jungle Chase as it turned out and it's one of my favorites, but the Jungle Cutter was wasted; could've been an amazing part of the scene.
-I love that Indy got married to Marion but I don't think we should've seen it. It's a big jump of unestablished time; they reunite, argue, save the world and get married? There's alot of issues they would've had to get through. Plus, we don't know when it took place. At least give a "6 months later" thing.
-Humor. I really dislike forced humor in an Indy film. 'Crusade' was even worse at this and I hate that 'Kingdom' tried to carry that on.
-Akator. Should've looked far more advanced and we should've seen more of it. This place should've been jumping! We get glimpse of it before the place gets destroyed and it looked 10x better from the far away angle.
-Sand pit scene wasn't really needed.
-It should've made clear that the Skull/Aliens spoke to Oxley and Indy because they admired teachers/seekers of knowledge. This was in one of the drafts, I believe.
-The film should've shown Indy being a bit self-loathing for not having been a father to Mutt. His father while present failed to be a father and Indy resented him for it. Indy should've resented himself for not even being present.
-I think the "room full of treasure" thing was done already by other films too much. But I get why it was there and appreciate the point it was there to make.
-A good angle I think they missed is that Indy should've been left with all his beliefs torn apart. He had faith validation with the Ark/Grail and now Aliens are proven to him. He could've been torn that his faith is now at odds with truth.
-The stairs and a few other parts of the temple that were left over are remnants of Akator and validation that a city/settlement DID exist there that was previously unknown, so they could've hinted that Indy reported this as his discovery. That would still mean something to archaeologists.
-How in the flying hell did they get back to the States?

That's all I can think of as of now. Looking at my list, someone could go "Holy crap, if that's the Indy film he loves second best, I can't imagine the complaints for the other two films he has!" and I understand that. The list would be just as long for those films but despite their flaws it doesn't bother me. They are what they are for better or worse and to me, 'Kingdom' is everything an Indiana Jones film should be plus some new elements. It summed up what makes the series fun and adventurous and whilst not worth a 20 year wait, it was still awesome and it fits. I always have had a great time watching it just like the others and that's what is important to me.

But yeah, those are the flaws/nitpicks/complaints I have for 'Kingdom'. Guess I didn't keep it brief after all but thanks for asking!
:hat:
 
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kongisking

Active member
Dr.Jonesy said:
I'm gonna keep it brief. My posts have been a tad long winded as of late so I'll just do bullet points. But don't think I think you're trying to be a turd by asking; this is what I like. Good discussion! Flaws are not off limits and I'm happy to discuss it.

Flaws? Hm, well let's see;

-Spalko's psychic powers are left undeveloped.
-We didn't have much stake in Mac exactly.
-Mutt being Indy's son. Would've worked better if he wasn't.
-Indy has a posse after the Jungle Chase. 'Crusade' had this issue as well.
-CGI is a bit dodgy in parts.
-Second act isn't as strong as the first.
-The rubber tree thing. It's not as ridiculous as some other scenes in the series like the raft falling off a 6,000 foot cliff but still. Like the monkey scene, it's how it's shot that is the problem.
-Monkey scene. 'Kingdom' is my 2nd favorite of the series...but hot damn that is horrid! It's not exactly the concept...it's that first shot of Mutt swinging. It's just an awkward shot and so blatant/horrible. It's just terribly directed...I cannot believe it made it off the cutting room floor and into an actual motion picture. The second swing is so much better and tolerable; if the first shot was like that it would have been no big deal.
-After looking into the Skull, Indy should've had some moments of psychosis. Maybe seeing things every once in awhile, trying to keep his head on straight. It turned Oxley insane, it should've made Indy at least a bit trippy.
-Marion's not so great portrayal. They nailed it some parts, failed in many others. Like Marcus and Sallah in Indy III.
-Sets sometimes look like sets. Other times they're amazing. 'Temple' and 'Crusade' suffered from this, as well.
-Spalko should've killed Oxley or Mac on screen; she needed to use that sword!
-Mac should've been redeemed at the end by pushing Indy to safety then dying; thus making his death make sense. I'm still confused as to what happened there.
-Wedding scene is way too overlit and white.
-I loved seeing the Alien; but I think for mystique they should've left him out.
-Spalko's death should've been more gorey like the concept art.
-The 'Indy accused of being a Communist' thing should've been further pushed. That was a great angle. Not done badly at all, but undercooked big time.
-I really love the Jungle Chase as it turned out and it's one of my favorites, but the Jungle Cutter was wasted; could've been an amazing part of the scene.
-I love that Indy got married to Marion but I don't think we should've seen it. It's a big jump of unestablished time; they reunite, argue, save the world and get married? There's alot of issues they would've had to get through. Plus, we don't know when it took place. At least give a "6 months later" thing.
-Humor. I really dislike forced humor in an Indy film. 'Crusade' was even worse at this and I hate that 'Kingdom' tried to carry that on.
-Akator. Should've looked far more advanced and we should've seen more of it. This place should've been jumping! We get glimpse of it before the place gets destroyed and it looked 10x better from the far away angle.
-Sand pit scene wasn't really needed.
-It should've made clear that the Skull/Aliens spoke to Oxley and Indy because they admired teachers/seekers of knowledge. This was in one of the drafts, I believe.
-The film should've shown Indy being a bit self-loathing for not having been a father to Mutt. His father while present failed to be a father and Indy resented him for it. Indy should've resented himself for not even being present.
-I think the "room full of treasure" thing was done already by other films too much. But I get why it was there and appreciate the point it was there to make.
-A good angle I think they missed is that Indy should've been left with all his beliefs torn apart. He had faith validation with the Ark/Grail and now Aliens are proven to him. He could've been torn that his faith is now at odds with truth.
-The stairs and a few other parts of the temple that were left over are remnants of Akator and validation that a city/settlement DID exist there that was previously unknown, so they could've hinted that Indy reported this as his discovery. That would still mean something to archaeologists.
-How in the flying hell did they get back to the States?

That's all I can think of as of now. Looking at my list, someone could go "Holy crap, if that's the Indy film he loves second best, I can't imagine the complaints for the other two films he has!" and I understand that. The list would be just as long for those films but despite their flaws it doesn't bother me. They are what they are for better or worse and to me, 'Kingdom' is everything an Indiana Jones film should be plus some new elements. It summed up what makes the series fun and adventurous and whilst not worth a 20 year wait, it was still awesome and it fits. I always have had a great time watching it just like the others and that's what is important to me.

But yeah, those are the flaws/nitpicks/complaints I have for 'Kingdom'. Guess I didn't keep it brief after all but thanks for asking!
:hat:

Excellent list, and all are true. But like you, I don't let them stop me from still having a grand old time with KOTCS.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
kongisking said:
Excellent list, and all are true. But like you, I don't let them stop me from still having a grand old time with KOTCS.

Thanks, and I think most fans would agree with at least a few things on my list. It is a long list, but like I said, if I were to make a list for 'Temple' and 'Crusade' they would be the same length.

After awhile of talking about what you liked/disliked, you just gotta ask yourself if you love and enjoy the film. You ask this as you leave the theater and if the answer is yes, then that's all that matters.
:)
 

Henry W Jones

New member
Dr.Jonesy said:

-The rubber tree thing. It's not as ridiculous as some other scenes in the series like the raft falling off a 6,000 foot cliff but still. Like the monkey scene, it's how it's shot that is the problem.
-Monkey scene. 'Kingdom' is my 2nd favorite of the series...but hot damn that is horrid! It's not exactly the concept...it's that first shot of Mutt swinging. It's just an awkward shot and so blatant/horrible. It's just terribly directed...I cannot believe it made it off the cutting room floor and into an actual motion picture. The second swing is so much better and tolerable; if the first shot was like that it would have been no big deal.

I respect your opinion :hat: but I have to say, while the raft in TOD is far-fetched, the rubber tree looked corny while the raft scene looked cool. Unbelievable, yes, but cool.:cool:

Also, and I am asking out of curiosity, what about the concept of a guy swinging through the jungle with monkey that long of a stretch seem good even in concept?
 
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