What did KOTCS get right?
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The Man
Well-known member
Udvarnoky said:
Agreed 100%. The 'haters' are dismissed as fickle nitpickers who didn't care for gophers. Yet it runs far deeper. As you've stated, Temple and Crusade had the advantage of actually entertaining beyond certain silliness.
When the audience is not engaged, what is left but to focus on the more ridiculous aspects? In short, Skull was nowhere near up-to-scratch script-wise to merit forgiveness for the more cringe-worthy elements...
The Man said:
Well, in my mind the fact that the problem runs far deeper is the reason people who only gripe about gophers should be dismissed as fickle nitpickers, because it suggests that they don't even understand the franchise they claim to love. The critics of this movie that I take seriously are the ones who cite the real problems, not the things that have appeared countless times in the previous movies that they simply decided to pretend don't exist.
Darth Vile
New member
Udvarnoky said:
And that's the thing right there... and whilst I don't agree that the movie has fundamental issues in terms of quality (within context of the other 2 sequels), I do believe that we have, in some respect, out grown Indiana Jones. Did the world really need another movie? And it's for these more subtle and less tangible reasons why some look to CGI ants or Marion's grin to explain why it somehow doesn't feel the same.
How can we feel the same way about a new movie, watching as adults, when we were first exposed to the other movies as children?
Sankara said:
I agree. But is it for individual moments of "over the topness," or the actual tone of the movie?
Why don't we complain about the fact that Willie remains a few feet from molten lava without getting a single burn or, you know, DYING? Or that a hammer falls on some random guy's head with a Three Stooges sound effect during one of the fight scenes? Or that our heroes' mine cart goes off the tracks, makes an impossible jump, and lands on new track perfectly aligned? Or that Indy tells Willie and Shorty to "get to the bridge" while he's "hanging" on a perfectly flat, wet cliff wall that he could never possibly climb up from?
I'll tell you why, because all that stupid stuff is awesome, because it's all in service of a movie that's ludicrous and nuts and knows it and loves every minute of it. It's a movie that says, "You're going to take whatever goofiness we dish out, because it's all in the name of mindless fun." And we accept it happily. Indy4 isn't giving us much fun, so when we get a third squealing reaction shot from the prairie dogs, we don't have the goodwill necessary to find it amusing.
That said, whenever people complain about specific moments of "silliness" in Indy4, it tells me that they either don't know how to word their real feelings about the movie, or they simply don't know Indiana Jones the way they think they do and have grown out of it. Pound for pound, Indy4 doesn't have any more moments of over-the-topness than the other movies, the problem is presentation.
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Indy's brother
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Well, to stay on topic, I think Harrison is a tremendously talented physical actor. There are subtle things he does that are really great in KOTCS. For example, when Dovchenko Smacks Indy in front of the warehouse, I loved the way Harrison acted like it lifted him off of his feet. In private, I locked the bathroom door at my house and tried to do it myself a few times.
I don't know which is more embarrassing. My inability to duplicate it, or the fact that I was that intent on doing it at all. I'm a dork.
I don't know which is more embarrassing. My inability to duplicate it, or the fact that I was that intent on doing it at all. I'm a dork.Even though Spalko could have benefitted from some more material and villain-like stuff, I really loved her in the film. But then again, Cate is awesome in everything she's in.
The warehouse scene was indeed a lot of fun. It had great action, and Indy was in fine form, combining elements of his characterization in the past with a great, world-weary attitude...something that I think carries through the whole film beautifully...
...which brings me to Harrison Ford nailing the perfect tone to match his age. He is Indy, and successfully sells Indy in his mid-fifties without it seeming utterly stupid.
The stuff leading up to and including the cemetary/tomb sequence worked well for me...while it did drag a tad, it was CGI free and felt like an Indy movie.
I also love the fact that Marion was brought back as the love interest...though she suffers from the same problem that Spalko does in that she isn't given as much to do as she should have been. Still, it beats having yet another female character that's half Ford's age.
And while I wish that the jungle chase sequence was punched up a little more (re: not wasting the Jungle Cutter as a set piece) it is a fun scene that actually uses real stunts. The ant sequence was also really cool, and to me justfied the CGI use (though it does stand out a bit when compared to the gross-out scenes in the other films).
Despite the moments that were glaringly awful (Mutt as Tarzan, Fridge, and Burrowing Rodents) I actually have mostly fond memories of the film, and look forward to picking up the DVD.
The warehouse scene was indeed a lot of fun. It had great action, and Indy was in fine form, combining elements of his characterization in the past with a great, world-weary attitude...something that I think carries through the whole film beautifully...
...which brings me to Harrison Ford nailing the perfect tone to match his age. He is Indy, and successfully sells Indy in his mid-fifties without it seeming utterly stupid.
The stuff leading up to and including the cemetary/tomb sequence worked well for me...while it did drag a tad, it was CGI free and felt like an Indy movie.
I also love the fact that Marion was brought back as the love interest...though she suffers from the same problem that Spalko does in that she isn't given as much to do as she should have been. Still, it beats having yet another female character that's half Ford's age.
And while I wish that the jungle chase sequence was punched up a little more (re: not wasting the Jungle Cutter as a set piece) it is a fun scene that actually uses real stunts. The ant sequence was also really cool, and to me justfied the CGI use (though it does stand out a bit when compared to the gross-out scenes in the other films).
Despite the moments that were glaringly awful (Mutt as Tarzan, Fridge, and Burrowing Rodents) I actually have mostly fond memories of the film, and look forward to picking up the DVD.
Cagefighterkip
New member
the movies of levels of OVER the TOPNESS:
1) Temple of Doom (the black sleep, the voodoo, the hearts getting plucked out, indys sidekick whos like 6 or 7, bridge)
2) Crystal Skull (doomtown, aliens)
3) Last Crusade (the over the top humor more than anything else)
4) Raiders (the only thing i can think of is indy being dragged under and behind the nazi truck)
i love all four Indys give Raiders, Crystal Skull, Doom and Crusade between 9 and 10 out 10 on the rating level, but the indys (for the most part) are always silly and unrealistic
1) Temple of Doom (the black sleep, the voodoo, the hearts getting plucked out, indys sidekick whos like 6 or 7, bridge)
2) Crystal Skull (doomtown, aliens)
3) Last Crusade (the over the top humor more than anything else)
4) Raiders (the only thing i can think of is indy being dragged under and behind the nazi truck)
i love all four Indys give Raiders, Crystal Skull, Doom and Crusade between 9 and 10 out 10 on the rating level, but the indys (for the most part) are always silly and unrealistic
Indy's brother
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Hey, how about that great shot of Spalko grinning slyly as she is driven away with the skull/sack in her arms. That seemed reminiscent of the old stuff, eh?
Benraianajones
New member
Udvarnoky said:
The Willie thing isn't "over the top" - it is just simply an aspect of the movie to thrill you and that stretches her life-time to the limit, to cause..suspense... It isn't outlandishly slappstick nor meant to be funny or cutsey, like the waterfalls, nor the monkeys swinging like tarzan. Also, even though shes surviving the impossible - it isn't quite the same as her being blown sky high in a fridge because of an nuke.
The sound effect of the hammer is a tame piece of humour in the movie - not an outlandish scene that takes over a huge chunk of the movie, that is why it isn't bad or worth complaining about.
Indy may tell Willie/Shorty to get to the bridge whislt hanging on a cliff that looks too wet - but it isn't a huge outlandish scene that points "hey look! he;s hanging on a wet cliff edge!" - like the "Marion's crashed in to a large tree that bounces up and kills the Soviets" in a cartoony fashion. The unrealistic factor isn't the same a what you are saying about them.
The problem with KOTCS is the humour is slap bang in your face and actually makes up an entire scene. The originals had the humour centered around a serious themed plot also, KOTCS never takes the time to build up a serious plot. They had that great scene with Spalko expressing what she wants to do with the skull has Indy stared in to it, then it was dropped.
Can anyone seriously say they found any parts on KOTCS as tense as when Indy was approaching the rip saw blade in The Last Crusade?
Also for the record, I am not a hater. I enjoyed KOTCS, but it could have been done better for sure.
Spalko was very good though, and I liked when she held the skull in the bag towards her chestas Indy/Marion/Mutt approached in the jeep.
Dr._Jones_Jr.
New member
Take the CGI and flush it down the toilet. When you have a series of movies with special effects (Star Wars IV-VI) and then you make new films decades later and use CGI instead, it makes the movies not seems that they are of the same series. KOTCS just feels out of the place strickly on the special effects. We go from amazing face melting to CGI monkeys and aliens. Imagine Jaws with CGI. I wouldnt be able to watch it to the end.
WHAT KOTCS GOT RIGHT:
It was funny,had good fights,left you guessing, IMO a good new sidekick in Mutt. I donno I saw it 3 times but just still long for something else by the end. Kinda like the semi-good new Star Wars. George Lucas is kinda not that sweet anymore.
WHAT KOTCS GOT RIGHT:
It was funny,had good fights,left you guessing, IMO a good new sidekick in Mutt. I donno I saw it 3 times but just still long for something else by the end. Kinda like the semi-good new Star Wars. George Lucas is kinda not that sweet anymore.
Darth Vile
New member
Benraianajones,
I can't agree with the above as I still find TOD to be the most cartoon like and slapstick of the series. KOTCS may have the worst offenders in the fridge and the Tarzan swing scenes, but TOD is more consistent (IMHO) in its cartoony and outlandish nature.
Also, it's difficult to refute someone else's feeling as to why disbelief is suspended or not. If someone can't get past a CGI gopher (as bad a choice as it was on the moviemakers part), then who am I to question?
But for me, TOD opened with the biggest unbelievable act in any Indiana Jones movie i.e. a Busby Berkley dance routine that's neither a dream or reality... but takes place in some alternative Indy universe. Now don't get me wrong, I think the opening to TOD is very creative and clearly a lot of effort went into it (and I love Williams music)... but how can anything in KOTCS be questioned after viewing the chorus line of "Anything Goes" doing impossible splits in an alternative reality backlot? Please someone tell me, what is actually occuring in that scene?
I can't agree with the above as I still find TOD to be the most cartoon like and slapstick of the series. KOTCS may have the worst offenders in the fridge and the Tarzan swing scenes, but TOD is more consistent (IMHO) in its cartoony and outlandish nature.
Also, it's difficult to refute someone else's feeling as to why disbelief is suspended or not. If someone can't get past a CGI gopher (as bad a choice as it was on the moviemakers part), then who am I to question?
But for me, TOD opened with the biggest unbelievable act in any Indiana Jones movie i.e. a Busby Berkley dance routine that's neither a dream or reality... but takes place in some alternative Indy universe. Now don't get me wrong, I think the opening to TOD is very creative and clearly a lot of effort went into it (and I love Williams music)... but how can anything in KOTCS be questioned after viewing the chorus line of "Anything Goes" doing impossible splits in an alternative reality backlot? Please someone tell me, what is actually occuring in that scene?
Luke Skywalker
New member
What did KOTCS right?
The most important thing: Making the Expanded scores of the original trilogy released...
Without this entertaining movie we would not have gotten that now.
The most important thing: Making the Expanded scores of the original trilogy released...
Without this entertaining movie we would not have gotten that now.
Benraianajones
New member
Darth Vile said:Benraianajones,
I can't agree with the above as I still find TOD to be the most cartoon like and slapstick of the series. KOTCS may have the worst offenders in the fridge and the Tarzan swing scenes, but TOD is more consistent (IMHO) in its cartoony and outlandish nature.
Also, it's difficult to refute someone else's feeling as to why disbelief is suspended or not. If someone can't get past a CGI gopher (as bad a choice as it was on the moviemakers part), then who am I to question?
But for me, TOD opened with the biggest unbelievable act in any Indiana Jones movie i.e. a Busby Berkley dance routine that's neither a dream or reality... but takes place in some alternative Indy universe. Now don't get me wrong, I think the opening to TOD is very creative and clearly a lot of effort went into it (and I love Williams music)... but how can anything in KOTCS be questioned after viewing the chorus line of "Anything Goes" doing impossible splits in an alternative reality backlot? Please someone tell me, what is actually occuring in that scene?
The CGI Gopher's didn't bother me in the slightest to be honest.
As for the dance, it is just simply an opening number - and they do dance in a room where nobody will see them for some reason, and they do a crazy split with their legs, but it isn't part of the main plot - just showcasing Willie's glamour life style and the things she is in to. It could also be said that the dancing on that part is just taking to an extreme to show exactly how over the top and attention seeking Willie enjoys to be in life. The outlandish nuked fridge, flying off a cliff on to a rubber looking tree and THEN going down 3 waterfalls and pixar version of jungle book-like tarzan monkey swing are actually part of the action plot and make up a core of the film and generaly nothing like an obscure dance in a room where no one will see them - the dance also isn't death defying. That is why as obscure as the dancing is - and the cartoony gophers, I can easily look past them because they don't take up the film's core.
I agree, TOD and KOTCS are the most cartoony of the Indy films. I find Temple of Doom to generally be very humrous and it has its a couple stretching the realms of reality portions - all Indy movies do. However what it does do, is take itself serious enough to develop a plot, and lives do feel at stake. The bridge scene when Indy is being cornered at each end was quite a tense moment - I don't recall being tense at all during KOTCS - because in general it doesn't seem to take itself serious enough - bascially it doesn't mix humour and seriousness well enough like the other 3. I actually like KOTCS and want it on DVD, but I wish they don't think they needed several large outlandish stunts. I mean, I enjoy the jungle chase, even the sword fighting on the jeeps - then, once again, we go too far - Mutt becomes tangled in vines that for some reason hoist him up in to the trees, and any grit the jungle chase did have, becomes totally trashed by the fantasy child-like monkey swinging to come.
TOD had a "Taking it too far moment" when the rubber dingy went off a cliff after falling from a plane, however, TOD only ever employs this method on such a large scale once - where as in KOTCS you have a fridge nuked - driving off a cliff then down 3 waterfalls. I would have been fine with just the fridge, I'd have been fine with just the cliff, I'd have been fine if they went down 3 waterfalls - but not all shoved in to the same movie. Again concerning the serious factor, as humouress as TOD was at times - thing did feel heart pumping at times - such as on the bridge. In KOTCS, nothing is heart pumping - even the waterfalls are presented as a joke. My friend said to me after he saw the film "You know what - Indy felt like he was in no danger in that film at all".
I just feel KOTCS deserved to be taken more serious than it actually was put across on screen, and heaven knows it could and should have been (esp. as it was dealing with something as eerie and mysterious as alien life), they had that great scene like I say with Indy glaring in to the skull - then they totally dropped the seriousness. The jungle chase was fun and good and full of action - then shove us in to jungle book. True also TOD had the screamish humrouress meal scene - but there is some backbone to it and it isn't all out outlandish gag - we actually are learning from Indy about the thugee an even learning about Indy himself - we also get a plot development during the Willie/Shorty food gags that something isn't quite right concerning the palace they are at. I did like the ants on KOTCS, however.
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Darth Vile
New member
Benraianajones said:
But I think you are excusing the unreality in one and not the other. Now if you find the unreality in KOTCS more troubling than TOD, then that is of course your prerogative? but as Udvarnoky previously stated, there are a myriad of things in TOD where credibility is stretched in very much the same way.
Also, I don?t find TOD to be serious/realistic at all (and there is certainly little or no character development). Sure ? not every second is played for laughs, but it?s always underscored by jokey, jokey humour or preposterous scenarios. For example, the spike chamber scene (which could have been as dramatic as the idol temple in Raiders) is reduced to a comedy scene. Now don?t get me wrong, KOTCS suffers from the very same things in its set pieces (particularly the jungle chase)? it?s just that, IMHO, TOD has more of these moments.
I agree with you about the serious tone? in that I would have preferred KOTCS to be more rooted in realism a la Raiders, but ultimately it?s closer to the sequels? and that in itself, I believe, is no reason for it to be regarded inferior to the other sequels.
emtiem
Well-known member
Benraianajones said:
I'd agree with that- I don't mind the film being outlandish, but if I could change anything it would be to have more danger and tension (City of the Gods felt very similar to KOTCS but with more danger and risk for Indy, which I did prefer) and to use more actual locations.
I really enjoyed KOTCS for what it was so I feel it got most things right: I think it's easier to name the things it got wrong as there's less of them. I'd like more risk, more locations and I'd have liked a slightly more original setup: foreign army going after a thing who get killed by the thing at the end of the film after a chase on moving vehicles at the end of the third act: Indy's been there too many times- at least ToD doesn't follow this strict formula.