The Tomb of Sir Richard

ClintonHammond said:

Especially given that the term "True Christian" is given as one of the best examples OF said logical fallacy.... (I can only assume that's one more thing you refused to read) Any more than if I said, "I'm a 6'5", 250 pound porn king", would change the fact that I'm a 6', 170 pound folk-singer...

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No, I read...I just don't see a valid point. You've yet to make a quantifiable statement outside of jocularity or sarcasm that refutes "True Christianity."

ClintonHammond said:

I think your best course of action would be to stop digging, cause you're not doing yourself any favours in the least...

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Only because you don't like the answers.

ClintonHammond said:

...but you sure are making my points well

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To quote you yet again, you keep saying that and not backing it up.

"I just don't see a valid point"
Then I suggest a good Critical Thinking course... because it can't be stated any plainer than the url I already posted, why it's a flawed concept.

"A common one which is often heard when a religion or religious group is criticized is:

3. Our religion teaches people to be kind and peaceful and loving. Anyone who does evil acts certainly isn?t acting in a loving manner, therefore they can?t really be a true member of our religion, no matter what they say.

But of course, the exact same argument can be made for any group ? a political party, a philosophical position, etc.... "

If you need help understanding that, then you need more help than I am willing to give....

ClintonHammond said:

the exact same argument can be made for any group

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CH, do you consider evolutionism to be a group? Because they seem to avoid group status or the claim to do good, slippery behavior indeed. Writes Michael Crichton, "after WWII, nobody was a eugenicist, and nobody had ever been a eugenecist." Weasels. Not that eugenics is the same as evolutionism. But with transitional theorists (and atheists) like HG Wells and GB Shaw, I'll say the evolution from one belief to another was rather natural.

In addition to Lysenko, consider John Money, the shrink who tragically suggested John become Joan after a botched circumcision. Because gender is a social construct. Hey, it was the 60's. He had the scientific community's consensus. These are people so desperate to witness biological change instead of sifting for evidence, they ruin lives. Why not group and classify them?

Moedred said:

Not that eugenics is the same as evolutionism.

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Actually, they're hauntingly similar. Eugenics, at it's base, is just coerced evolution...a sort of premeditated "natural" selection.

clintonhammond said:

"A common one which is often heard when a religion or religious group is criticized is:

3. Our religion teaches people to be kind and peaceful and loving. Anyone who does evil acts certainly isn’t acting in a loving manner, therefore they can’t really be a true member of our religion, no matter what they say.

But of course, the exact same argument can be made for any group — a political party, a philosophical position, etc.... "

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Yeah, it couldn't be because their are actually people who would try to justify their actions with a particular philosophy...like Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin did with evolution. "We're just making the world a better place for those whose bloodlines are pure..."

clintonhammond said:

If you need help understanding that, then you need more help than I am willing to give....

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You're operating under a false assumption. I neither asked for nor require your help. I have a Helper.

"Writes Michael Crichton"
What does Science Fiction have to do with this conversation?

"I have a Helper."
Ya... the guy in the group home across the street see and hears things that aren't there either. V.A. Ramachandran has some very interesting science that links the so-called "Religious Experience" (The euphoria, the sense of connection, the voices or the sense of a presence) with the same changes in the brain that occur during events like Grand Mal epilepsy.... I find the idea of "Religion as symptom of Mental Illness" very compelling...

"people who would try to justify their actions with a particular philosophy"
Like Christians....

"John Money"
Is a prime example of why science wins.... Science is able to look at its past and point out "we were wrong", "We're still right", "We don't know" as more information is gathered, and processed.... Science doesn't blindly cling desperately to dogma that's thousands of years out of date.

From the article you linked to
"It should also be pointed out that the Johns-Hopkins University no longer performs the kind of research and surgeries pioneered by Money due to their lack of a valid scientific basis."

So, what's your point Moedred?

ClintonHammond said:

I find the idea of "Religion as symptom of Mental Illness" very compelling...

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That's only because relegating faith to a symptom would justify your lack thereof...not very scientific of you...

ClintonHammond said:

"people who would try to justify their actions with a particular philosophy"
Like Christians....

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You're pounding an invalid point. If someone's a true follower of Christ, atrocities aren't compatible with said philosophy. To quote Kierkegaard, "Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it." I take no responsibility or association with denominationalism...I simply read His Book, believe it, and do what He says to do.

"relegating faith to a symptom would justify your lack thereof"
Not in the least.... It's not justification I'm after.. justification requires preconcieved expectations... The world would be a MUCH more interesting place if there were gods and ghosts and bigfoots and locness monsters... but there's no evidence to support their existance.... I keep waiting for you to present any, but you are unable.

"If someone's a true follower of Christ"
Already dismissed...

ClintonHammond said:

I keep waiting for you to present any, but you are unable.

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What about the power of 10?

And just how that does that support the existence of any Flying Spaghetti Monster?

ClintonHammond said:

So, what's your point Moedred?

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That evolutionists are free to wash their hands of Lamarckism, eugenics, and sex reassignment surgery instantaneously (as if blessed by Christ's forgiveness, hmm?) ...but "your so-called True Christinas have been responsible for some of the most horrific things in history."

Pale Horse said:

What about the power of 10?

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"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20

moedred said:

That evolutionists are free to wash their hands of Lamarckism, eugenics, and sex reassignment surgery instantaneously (as if blessed by Christ's forgiveness, hmm?) ...but "your so-called True Christinas have been responsible for some of the most horrific things in history."

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Well put, Moe...men can make a 'crusade' out of anything. I mean, you can even kill a baby if you 'recognize' that it's just a lump of multiplying cells...survival of the 'fittest', I suppose.

And just how that does that support the existence of any Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Nothing you haven't heard before, I'm sure. Design implying a Designer...

And I noticed you suavely avoided the retort of Christian atrocities...pots and kettles spring to mind...

Where's the 'design' in "Powers Of 10"???

Sorry...intuitive jump from the galactic to the subatomic...

To wax mystic for a moment, the orbit of smaller particles aroung a central, more significant mass, again from a macro- to microscopic viewpoint.

A 'jump' without evidence.

So, that's not proof at all. That's just one thing happening to look like another thing.

ClintonHammond said:

That's just one thing happening to look like another thing.

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Right...a pattern repeated throughout the universe, from groups of galaxies to atoms is just a coincidence...kinda like just the right chemical compositions, environmental conditions, stellar placement, and cellular colligation over billions of years is a coincidence. I was wrong about you, CH...you may have more faith than I do.

But there is no pattern

ClintonHammond said:

But there is no pattern

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Come on now, you saying there is no discernable pattern to all of this? I can stand on a different cliff then you shouting all sorts of opposites at each other, I can accept you are Canadian, I can even tolerate that you may like Guinness more then Bass, but I can't believe that you can suggest with a seriousness of attitude that there is no repeating patterns reflected in the physical universe. Come on CH, your better then that.

Plain willful ignorance.

And you've still yet to address the 'atrocities.'