Favorite Fight Scene

What's your favorite fight scene?

  • Flying Wing (German Mechanic)

    Votes: 33 51.6%
  • Rock Crusher (Thugee)

    Votes: 9 14.1%
  • Tank Fight (Vogel)

    Votes: 15 23.4%
  • Big Damn Ants (Dovchenko)

    Votes: 7 10.9%

  • Total voters
    64

Peru1936

New member
Montana Smith said:
Dovchenko was also a much stronger opponent. He might not have been as bulky as Pat Roach, but the actor was a former member of the Cirque du Soleil, and they know how to use their strength.

I'm curious what Igor Jijikine being a former member of Cirque du Soleil has to do with Dovchenko being stronger than the mechanic.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Peru1936 said:
I'm curious what Igor Jijikine being a former member of Cirque du Soleil has to do with Dovchenko being stronger than the mechanic.

Somebody mentioned that he didn't look as strong as Pat Roach, and was therefore less threatening. I was just making the point that strength comes in different forms. Though, I agree, it's not really that relevant. Only that Indy was in great danger from both opponents, and that his methods of escape are inventive.
 

Peru1936

New member
Montana Smith said:
Somebody mentioned that he didn't look as strong as Pat Roach, and was therefore less threatening. I was just making the point that strength comes in different forms. Though, I agree, it's not really that relevant. Only that Indy was in great danger from both opponents, and that his methods of escape are inventive.

I see.

Anyway, the way I see it, Indy knocked Dovchenko down but didn't do the same to the mechanic, even though Indy was twenty+ years younger when he fought the mechanic.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Peru1936 said:
I see.

Anyway, the way I see it, Indy knocked Dovchenko down but didn't do the same to the mechanic, even though Indy was twenty+ years younger when he fought the mechanic.

Yeah, the mechanic was brick-like. Punching him was like punching a brick wall. That's why, a while back I wrote that if they ever made a remake of Raiders, the Pat Roach role could be taken by Nikolai Valuev. The much shorter and lighter David Haye broke his hand against Valuev's face early in the fight, but eventually won on points.

http://www.grcade.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13877

Dovchenko was strong, but not brick-like.
 

JP Jones

New member
avidfilmbuff said:
Now don't get me wrong, I love the fight scenes in the first 3 films, but when I first saw Indy's fight with Dovchenko by the ants, I was just amazed. The fight between Indy and the German mechanic was extremely well done, for it really showed Indy in over his head, and it was in that scene were you can really see the influence that Buster Keaton had in Indy's character. Consequently, it really isn't a fight scene as it is just Indy trying to get away from this guy, this is in no way a criticism as this is what makes the scene unique. The fight with the thugee overseer is also well done, but I was always a little disappointed that Harrison's back injury prevented him from filming the entire fight scene himself. The fight with Vogel isn't really brought into the main focus as the scene has far more emphasis to Indy trying to survive on the tank, not to mention Vogel isn't nearly strong enough to pose a real challenge to Indy. What I really loved about the fight with Dovchenko is that he was far more in the middle between Pat Roach and Vogel when it came to strength. He is obviously much stronger than Vogel and is able to cause an incredible amount of pain and discomfort, but he isn't so strong that Indy isn't able to cause any damage. And consequently, we have a far more frantic and brutal free for all with these two men trading blow after blow. The music playing during the scene really sends chills down one's spine and really caused my heart to beat incessantly. The final blows Indy lays upon Dovchenko holds nothing back, with each blow made even more brutal with Ben Burtt's magnificent punching sound, and a stream of blood dripping out of Dovchenko's mouth. This of course culminates in what has to be one of the most disturbing death scenes in the Indiana Jones films since the scene where Toht's face melts and the scene where the Hindu's heart is ripped out from his chest by Mola Ram, played by a fantastic Amrish Puri. The scene with the German mechanic was a better scene when it comes to portraying Indy in over his head, but the ant fight scene was just a better fight scene overall, and one of Harrison's best action scenes since the Truck Chase in Raiders of The Lost Ark.
That was very well said. It's not like the other fights are boring, they're just different. The reason I like the ants is because of the pacing. The music, the ants, and the fight at the same time make it one of the great scenes in Indy history IMO.
 

Sharkey

Guest
Evenly matched, Indy kicked the ass of the first german mechanic. Maybe the monkey wrench gave him the advantage.So I guess Indy was the underdog for both fights.

The rock crusher fight was a vehicle for more voodoo mumbo jumbo than a great fight.

They didn't take the fight on the tank seriously either. It was fun but goofy.

The Dovchenko fight was pretty serious and satisfying. The idea of a confined arena to fight in was fine, it helped the fight, but it would have been much better if it weren't caused by more voodoo. If they had fallen to a ledge which protruded from the wall of a waterfall would have been more to my liking. The rushing water could have saved them from the ants but also would send them crashing to their deaths against the rocks.

I guess that would have made the falling three times bit even more foolish though.
 

Indysolo12

New member
JP Jones said:
This might have been done before,but what's your favorite fight scene.
Mine is the Big Damn Ants! It was sheer brilliance and people give it no credit. It was a fast paced, edge of your seat, thrill ride. with a very satisfying ending.
1.Big damn ants
2.Flying wing
3.Rock crusher
4.Tank fight


1.German Mechanic
2.Vogel Tank Fight
3.Thugee Rock Crusher
4.Dovchelnvo (Spelling?)
 

bonoferox

Active member
The Flying Wing fight is my favorite hands down. I was just amazed by it when I was a kid and it made me fall in love with the character.
A close second would have to be Indy vs Dovchenko. Waling away from KOTCS, it was the part that stood out the most to me. I had been waiting for the showdown with the soldier villain fight and it didn't disappoint at all. Would I have wanted a couple of changes? Yes of course. I was hoping it would have taken place on the jungle cutter vehicle with a more realistic sense of danger. Still, I loved it and re-watch it more than any other scene in the film.
 

Walton

New member
German mechanic fight, hands down.

pellman said:
I also have similar reservations about the nameless Germans during Desert Chase, but as for nameless enemies in general, these are always participating in a greater conflict, such as the stormtroopers, or are themselves acting as aggressors. Individually, there may be a decent fool among them who has chosen the wrong side, which is unfortunate. But the point is that they have chosen sides.**

The mechanic is part of a standing army during peacetime (1936) and has not aligned himself with any aggressor. It is Indy who is the aggressor in that scene. The soldiers are just defending themselves and doing their duty.

It is an example of how American films are prejudiced against Germans. If you have a German bad guy, you don't have to establish that he is bad. Being German is enough.

The German soldiers are part of the Nazi army, aligned with Adolf Hitler; by association -- they're getting the Ark so Hitler's army can march across the face of the earth, wiping out all who oppose him (never mind that some among his opponents may be good people) -- they are evil.

pellman said:
Opposing the hero is not enough. The hero has to have moral justification to be a hero. But maybe I should start another thread about that.

The moral justification is that madman Hitler wants world domination, and these Nazi soldiers (who also happen to be German) are helping him attain his ambition. These movies (RotLA and TLC) are not about Indy vs. Germans. They're about Indy vs. Nazis. There is a distinction, one that might have been cleared up by having one of Indy's allies be a German native.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Walton said:
...these Nazi soldiers (who also happen to be German) are helping him attain his ambition. These movies (RotLA and TLC) are not about Indy vs. Germans. They're about Indy vs. Nazis. There is a distinction...
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general). The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

Pellman is right in what he says. Again, Walton, you don't know what you're talking about.:rolleyes:

On Topic: Favourite fight? German mechanic!(y)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general). The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

This is one of my pet bugbears, as you'll know (my point in this thread dating back to November last year!) It's a common misconception.

The non-Nazi status of Dietrich's men is a factor that gives Raiders more depth: there are the normal German soldiers (who may or may not be sympathetic to the Party); Dietrich who has orders direct from the Fuehrer; Toht who is a Party member; Belloq, who has no allegiance to anyone but himself. Amongst all these there's Indy who's on a mission of supreme importance, where murder becomes an acceptable means to preventing Hitler gaining the Ark, and the kudos it would add to his power.

As explained in other threads, I see Indy as more the anti-hero type, than the traditional hero. An anti-hero has greater freedom of action. He has a reckless ambition. Therefore, it's as much about preventing Hitler gaining the Ark as it is about claiming the prize for himself, or at least before Belloq can.

Stoo said:
On Topic: Favourite fight? German mechanic!(y)

It's the fight that has everything: from real danger to humour to dirty fighting to an assist via propeller!
 

Walton

New member
Stoo said:
The only unquestionable, bona-fide Nazi in "Raiders" is Toht because we see his party pin.

Looks like he's wearing the Gold Party Badge...the one issued to party members with an active, uninterrupted membership whose registered number is under 100,000, by decree of Adolf Hitler in Oct of 1933. So Toht has been a member of the party for a while. He's elite among Nazis...you are correct, but Dietrich's remarks throughout the film mark him as a Nazi as well, never mind that's he's wearing a Parteiadler.

Stoo said:
The 'distinction' is: the soldiers are not Nazis. This is probably the largest misconception about "Raiders" (and WW2 history in general).

The rest of these Germans were probably not be registered Nazis, true, but that has nothing to do with their ideological beliefs. In the 1930s, political involvement was prohibited by the Wehrmacht. And if a Nazi is not wearing a Gold Party Badge, all that means is their registration number is over 100,000. Regardless, their allegiance to bona-fide Nazi agents is enough to justify Indy's actions against them.

The badge was eventually used to coerce membership into the NSDAP.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
but Dietrich's remarks throughout the film mark him as a Nazi as well, never mind that's he's wearing a Parteiadler.

The Parteiadler was made the official eagle for all institutions, including the Wehrmacht. It was simply part of the uniform.

Walton said:
The rest of these Germans were probably not be registered Nazis, true, but that has nothing to do with their ideological beliefs.

Do we know what each soldier believes in? I suspect that if Dietrich's unit were real, then the soldiers wouldn't even know what their real mission in Egypt was. In a sense they were pawns who stood in the way of Indy's own mission.

Walton said:
In the 1930s, political involvement was prohibited by the Wehrmacht.

Yes, the Wehrmacht High Command forbade membership of the NSDAP, and this was only overturned by Hitler after the 20 July 1944 Stauffenberg bomb. So, technically neither Dietrich nor his men can be registered Nazis.

Walton said:
And if a Nazi is not wearing a Gold Party Badge, all that means is their registration number is over 100,000. Regardless, their allegiance to bona-fide Nazi agents is enough to justify Indy's actions against them.

The badge was eventually used to coerce membership into the NSDAP.

I don't understand the significance of the emphasis on just the Golden Party badge. There were many different badges produced. None of Dietrich's men should technically have been able to wear one, since they weren't permitted to be involved politically.

It signifies that Toht was among the first 100,000, who were members before Hitler came to power in 1933. Toht's laughter when the Ark is opened and apparently nothing is inside, is another example of the questionable allegiances within ROTLA.

The occupation of the German Mechanic has also been debated here - whether or not he was just a Feldgendarme doing his duty in preventing Indy getting to the aircraft.

It all adds up to a situation with an interesting dynamic with regards to Indy's battles throughout the film.

Indy has a clear purpose, and he isn't afraid to do whatever it takes to accomplish it.
 

michael

Well-known member
I know I voted for the Tank fight, but after thinking about it some more, I'm more partial to the Giant Thuggee fight. It's the one I acted out the most when I was a kid on the couch (the end of the couch was of course the rock crusher).;)

Montana Smith said:
It's the fight that has everything: from real danger to humour to dirty fighting to an assist via propeller!
I'd say they all have that (except for the Ants! fight, not as much dirty fighting as the previous 3) just insert how the death of the villain comes, that's all.
 

dr.jones1986

Active member
I would have to say the "Flying Wing" scene is the best. The tank and rock crusher are tied for second.

Good point made about the German soldiers in Raiders all being Wehermarcht, except for Toht (although Dietrich seems very sympathetic to the Nazi ideology). Interestingly enough most of the Germans in TLC are SS. I believe the guy Indy steals the uniform at the book burning rally was Wehmarcht though.
 

oki9Sedo

New member
michael said:
I'd say they all have that (except for the Ants! fight, not as much dirty fighting as the previous 3) just insert how the death of the villain comes, that's all.

They saved the "dirty" move for the end, when Indy pretends to crawl towards his hat and goes for a great big dirty log. That was very a very satisfying moment!

While Dovchenko doesn't pull any dirty tricks or use any weapons, he doesn't exactly play by the Marquis de Queensbury rules himself. Kicking Indy on the ground, pulling him up by his ear and hair etc
 

Walton

New member
Montana Smith said:
The Parteiadler was made the official eagle for all institutions, including the Wehrmacht. It was simply part of the uniform.

It represents the Nazi party.

Montana Smith said:
Do we know what each soldier believes in? I suspect that if Dietrich's unit were real, then the soldiers wouldn't even know what their real mission in Egypt was. In a sense they were pawns who stood in the way of Indy's own mission.

None of us definitively knows each soldier's beliefs either way. But we do not need to. Indy doesn't. They are associated with the Nazi party (and its agenda to bring the Ark to Hitler), and knowing that is enough for him.

And we as an audience have to assume that the soldiers are intelligent and competent men who knowingly aligned themselves with the Nazi party. To me, they seemed to be a threat to Indy, but if you're suggesting they were ignorant of what they were getting involved in, well that makes Indy seem less of a hero and more a bully picking on a bunch of dummies.

If they joined the military but didn't believe in Nazi ideals, they'd have stayed out of the way. Conscientious objectors always end up at the back of the line pulling kitchen duty. All the soldiers you didn't see Indy pound on...we can make that assumption about them.

Yeah, pawns...in Chess, pawns have an allegiance. And they happen to be powerful pieces, not just throwaway barriers.

Montana Smith said:
Yes, the Wehrmacht High Command forbade membership of the NSDAP, and this was only overturned by Hitler after the 20 July 1944 Stauffenberg bomb. So, technically neither Dietrich nor his men can be registered Nazis.

We agree, they're not registered. But that doesn't stop them from believing what registered members believe, in part if not in whole. Whether they're "bona-fide" members like Toht is irrelevant. I think that if those who didn't believe in Nazi ideals wouldn't have joined a military associated with the Nazi party.

Montana Smith said:
I don't understand the significance of the emphasis on just the Golden Party badge. There were many different badges produced. None of Dietrich's men should technically have been able to wear one, since they weren't permitted to be involved politically.

It signifies that Toht was among the first 100,000, who were members before Hitler came to power in 1933. Toht's laughter when the Ark is opened and apparently nothing is inside, is another example of the questionable allegiances within ROTLA.

The occupation of the German Mechanic has also been debated here - whether or not he was just a Feldgendarme doing his duty in preventing Indy getting to the aircraft.

It all adds up to a situation with an interesting dynamic with regards to Indy's battles throughout the film.

Indy has a clear purpose, and he isn't afraid to do whatever it takes to accomplish it.

The distinction is that the film is not saying "all Germans are evil." However, a German who is part of the military at that time likely believes as registered Nazi members do. Or at least he's likely to be classified as a Nazi by those around him; he is wearing the uniform. Seems Indy saw it that way. But perhaps you're suggesting Indy should have interviewed each one before engaging in combat.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Walton said:
It represents the Nazi party.

So does every other official uniform of the time.

Walton said:
None of us definitively knows each soldier's beliefs either way. But we do not need to. Indy doesn't. They are associated with the Nazi party (and its agenda to bring the Ark to Hitler), and knowing that is enough for him.

And we as an audience have to assume that the soldiers are intelligent and competent men who knowingly aligned themselves with the Nazi party. To me, they seemed to be a threat to Indy, but if you're suggesting they were ignorant of what they were getting involved in, well that makes Indy seem less of a hero and more a bully picking on a bunch of dummies.

If they joined the military but didn't believe in Nazi ideals, they'd have stayed out of the way. Conscientious objectors always end up at the back of the line pulling kitchen duty. All the soldiers you didn't see Indy pound on...we can make that assumption about them.

So every German or Austrian soldier in 1936 is a Nazi?

Early 1930s Germany was in a state of chaos with massive inflation and poverty. Being part of the 100,000 man Reichswehr wasn't something a soldier would give up.

If they wanted to be a Nazi they would volunteer for the SS or SA.

Walton said:
Yeah, pawns...in Chess, pawns have an allegiance. And they happen to be powerful pieces, not just throwaway barriers.

They're also on the frontline.

Walton said:
We agree, they're not registered. But that doesn't stop them from believing what registered members believe, in part if not in whole. Whether they're "bona-fide" members like Toht is irrelevant. I think that if those who didn't believe in Nazi ideals wouldn't have joined a military associated with the Nazi party.

In that case there wouldn't be much employment available anywhere in the state.
 
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