Dietrich vs. Vogel vs. Dovchenko?

Von Stalhein said:

He didn't pour all of his effort into neutralizing his enemy as quickly as possible and instead couldn't restrain himself from extracting pleasure from his position relative to the enemy during his attacks from behind. He should instead have surrounded himself with more competent men to scream commands at, who would have incapacitated Jones so that the Standartenführer could have pleasured himself in a more secure situation.

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So you're saying he failed due to lack of trying rather than incompetence? God, he looked to me like he was trying his damnedest the whole time (except when stamping on Indy's fingers as he hangs off the side of the tank - he was just having fun there).

oki9Sedo said:

So you're saying he failed due to lack of trying rather than incompetence? God, he looked to me like he was trying his damnedest the whole time (except when stamping on Indy's fingers as he hangs off the side of the tank - he was just having fun there).

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Von Stalhein is dead-set on his hobby-horse interpretation of Vogel, I'm afraid. As ever, though, your interpretation of fight scenes is the most solid and thorough.

And I agree with you on the overall question, incidentally: Dovchenko is certainly the toughest of the colonels.

Attila the Professor said:

Von Stalhein is dead-set on his hobby-horse interpretation of Vogel, I'm afraid..

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You think so? Vogel looked to me like he was doing his best to kill Indy, he didn't look to me like he was doing the cat toying with its prey thing, except for that moment when he smiles and stamps on Indy's fingers as he hangs off the side of the tank. He looks like he's taking things very seriously when trying to strangle him with the chain, beat him with the shovel etc.

As ever, though, your interpretation of fight scenes is the most solid and thorough

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Thanks Attila. I'm a big film fight scene fan generally, particularly of these films. I love the little details.

oki9Sedo said:

You think so? Vogel looked to me like he was doing his best to kill Indy, he didn't look to me like he was doing the cat toying with its prey thing, except for that moment when he smiles and stamps on Indy's fingers as he hangs off the side of the tank. He looks like he's taking things very seriously when trying to strangle him with the chain, beat him with the shovel etc.

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No, I agree with you. But Von Stalhein has this notion of Vogel's sexual proclivities that colors his interpretation, right through to his "orgasmic screams."

Attila the Professor said:

No, I agree with you. But Von Stalhein has this notion of Vogel's sexual proclivities that colors his interpretation, right through to his "orgasmic screams."

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Ha! I certainly got the impression Vogel is sadistic and takes pleasure from hurting people, but never got the sense that this was sexual in nature!

Wonder what was going through his mind here...

I never had the impression that Dietrich liked to get his hands dirty. He must have been a capable and trusted officer, but Hitler had the SS on hand as enforcers. It was handy that Toht also had the key to Well of Souls on his palm, since he became doubly useful once in Egypt.

Vogel, another SS, was also portrayed as a sadistic enforcer. And in the 1950s the role is taken by a Soviet special forces officer.

Dietrich is the odd one out. Campbell Black was given the freedom of distancing Dietrich from the "black suited clowns" in Berlin. I see him as a soldier undertaking a serious duty, and not prone to getting personally involved in scrapping.

oki9Sedo said:

You think so? Vogel looked to me like he was doing his best to kill Indy, he didn't look to me like he was doing the cat toying with its prey thing, except for that moment when he smiles and stamps on Indy's fingers as he hangs off the side of the tank. He looks like he's taking things very seriously when trying to strangle him with the chain, beat him with the shovel etc.

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Had he been serious about strangling him with the chain, he would have crossed its two ends and pulled them in opposite direction.

Montana Smith said:

Maybe they first met in the Sturmabteilung?

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That is a reasonable conjecture.

Montana Smith said:

In that case Vogel would win hands down!

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Who would win a glove-slapping fight between the Standartenführer and General Patton?

I voted for Vogel because I thought he seemed like the smartest and the meanest out of those three.

Montana Smith said:

He's very fond of his black leather gloves.

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I only just realized that "Vogel" is an anagram of "Glove"!

I'm tempted to say Dov old boy just to show my support for KOTCS elements again...