The Frank Darabont Script

Peacock's-Eye

New member
The Man said:
If the Indy movies - certainly the first three - were merely dispensable popcorn movies, I doubt this forum would exist. Indiana Jones is an indispensable treasure in all departments. Why else would so many be aggrieved at what they see as a disappointing fourth?
Where/when did I say "disposable"?
I said "brilliant".
Huge difference.
 

Cagefighterkip

New member
koepps was better than darabonts

i saw very few differences w/Darabonts script and Koepp's and in earnest as interesting a read as Darabonts was, the ending w.Oxley moving the spoons and some of the crazy stuff (like the airplane chase, Indy vine swingning) was dumb... I like Mutt swinging but NOT indy... i preferr Koepps version and love INDY 4 as a whole
 

Rococo

New member
James said:
I think that's largely because it is a pretty unrealistic development. Most people don't talk and act exactly the same when you meet them 5 or 10 years later- let alone 15 or 20. You usually find that they have undergone some growth and change.

Look at where Marion is in life when we first meet her in ROTLA. She's in the middle of nowhere, completely alone, and reduced to surviving any way she can. She doesn't hate Indiana Jones. She has learned to hate him over a period of years, mainly because there's no one else to blame. Why should she be back at this exact same place 20 years later, especially considering how quickly she adjusted in ROTLA?

Also, compare this to where we find her in KOTCS. When Indy left her as a teen, she ultimately found herself with nothing and she resented him for it. But when he walked out in 1938, he left her with everything. She likely came to view Mutt as her entire world, which could explain why Mutt in turn felt such a strong need for independence. The great irony in KOTCS is that Indy is now the one who is completely alone, and headed into isolation as an expatriate.

Thank you for putting what I was thinking down, much more eloquently than I could have explained it. Yes, the lack of change is ultimately the problem- it felt like Darabont was trying to hit upon as many little character points, quotes, moves, and Iconic scenes as he could possibly cram into one script. The fun in KOTCS is the little nods to the originals, that aren't in your face, are easy to miss- but a lot of fun when you find them.
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
James said:
I think that's largely because it is a pretty unrealistic development. Most people don't talk and act exactly the same when you meet them 5 or 10 years later- let alone 15 or 20. You usually find that they have undergone some growth and change.

Look at where Marion is in life when we first meet her in ROTLA. She's in the middle of nowhere, completely alone, and reduced to surviving any way she can. She doesn't hate Indiana Jones. She has learned to hate him over a period of years, mainly because there's no one else to blame. Why should she be back at this exact same place 20 years later, especially considering how quickly she adjusted in ROTLA?

Also, compare this to where we find her in KOTCS. When Indy left her as a teen, she ultimately found herself with nothing and she resented him for it. But when he walked out in 1938, he left her with everything. She likely came to view Mutt as her entire world, which could explain why Mutt in turn felt such a strong need for independence. The great irony in KOTCS is that Indy is now the one who is completely alone, and headed into isolation as an expatriate.

Darabont was asked to write a story about an older Indiana Jones that paid tribute to B movies of the 1950s. Instead, what he turned in was essentially an issue of The Further Adventures of Indiana Jones that could've been written in the mid 80s.

You make a good argument, and I think I probably see the crux of our disagreement in this sentence:
James said:
But when he walked out in 1938, he left her with everything.

I think those who know me know that I try to be a pretty forgiving, empathetic guy; most things are explicable, in my view. However, the one thing I absolutely <I>loathe</I> and willingly condemn is walking out, running away, abandoning one's obligations - and while Indy did not know that Marion was pregnant in '38, Marion certainly knew, and would have been justified in her resentment. So, while you see "the everything," and are right to, I can't help but be preoccupied with the "he left her."

Now, of course, the fact of Indy's leaving isn't quite so big a deal in Darabont's version because there isn't a son in the picture complicates this somewhat, and on my second viewing of the film based on Koepp's script I wasn't <I>quite</I> so bothered by what I still see, to some degree, as a lack of character development, but I still feel that Darabont's exploration of a Marion who's pretty bitter towards Indy and even vaguely opportunistic in a treasure-hunting sort of way, after their reconciliation so many years ago, is richer in the idea, even if somewhat lacking in the execution.

An aside: I do quite agree with those who complain about too many references to the trilogy in Darabont's script. Henry Jones Sr., shouldn't sing, Indy and Marion shouldn't rephrase lines from years ago to each other, and Indy <I>probably</I> shouldn't steal the Chacopoyan Idol (the Cross of Coronado, perhaps).
 

Peacock's-Eye

New member
Attila the Professor said:
You make a good argument, and I think I probably see the crux of our disagreement in this sentence:


I think those who know me know that I try to be a pretty forgiving, empathetic guy; most things are explicable, in my view. However, the one thing I absolutely <I>loathe</I> and willingly condemn is walking out, running away, abandoning one's obligations - and while Indy did not know that Marion was pregnant in '38, Marion certainly knew, and would have been justified in her resentment. So, while you see "the everything," and are right to, I can't help but be preoccupied with the "he left her."

Now, of course, the fact of Indy's leaving isn't quite so big a deal in Darabont's version because there isn't a son in the picture complicates this somewhat, and on my second viewing of the film based on Koepp's script I wasn't <I>quite</I> so bothered by what I still see, to some degree, as a lack of character development, but I still feel that Darabont's exploration of a Marion who's pretty bitter towards Indy and even vaguely opportunistic in a treasure-hunting sort of way, after their reconciliation so many years ago, is richer in the idea, even if somewhat lacking in the execution.

An aside: I do quite agree with those who complain about too many references to the trilogy in Darabont's script. Henry Jones Sr., shouldn't sing, Indy and Marion shouldn't rephrase lines from years ago to each other, and Indy <I>probably</I> shouldn't steal the Chacopoyan Idol (the Cross of Coronado, perhaps).
You didn't have a problem with Marion leaving Indy in the Darabont script and then using him, and then going back to him? What's the difference?
 

James

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
while Indy did not know that Marion was pregnant in '38, Marion certainly knew

And this is why I don't think Marion would've- or even could've- maintained a grudge for a span of two decades.

I guess I'm just not really sure how denying someone their son/father is any more honorable than deciding you're not quite ready for marriage. I could understand if Indy had known about Mutt, yet still refused any contact.

Marion had an obligation to Mutt as well. Karen Allen has echoed this sentiment, suggesting that Marion's relationship with Colin Williams was more about Mutt than herself.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I think the social stigma of a bastard child in 1938 would certainly fuel a grudge match. No matter how world traveled the Ravenwood's could be. In fact, think about it. Esteemed college professor, with an unwed pregnant daugher, in 1938? Well, it's almost....Brudibar!
 

James

Well-known member
I think you'd still need Indy to actually have knowledge of the child to justify Marion holding a 20-year-old grudge.
 

SterankoII

New member
I don't think Marion had a still grudge with Indy over him leaving when they were reunited in the movie. She felt it justified her not telling him about their son and she was already married to Colin. They were both wrong to do what they did. She obviously couldn't not think about Indy, raising his son all those years.
 

The Man

Well-known member
Perhaps we're digging where little, if any, is required. Spielberg and Koepp were planning and writing War Of The Worlds. Darabont's Indy 4 draft was rejected around the same time. They have a brainwave: take the Ray and Robbie Ferrier scenario from Worlds (absent, none-too-committed father - resentful, resourceful son brought close by extraordinary events) and paste it into the Indy 4 script. Ta-Da!

That's either as inspired or as lazy as you want it to be.
 

SterankoII

New member
Hey, I cared a lot about Indy and Mutt more than the father and son in War of the Worlds! I could give a crap whether Tom Cruise connected with his son. Or whether Dr. Grant liked having kids iwith Laura Dern n Jurassic Park or whether Dr. Malcolm got back with his ex- girlfriend in Lost World. KOTCS is like the first Koepp screenplay where I liked the personal relationship stuff waaaaaaaaaaay more than the spectacle! Some people probably didn't.
 

dmaster

New member
Frank Darabont must have been smoking pipe.

The script is filled with way out there over the top moments and totally disrespect for character in many ways.

Come on, all of you Lucas haters say it... you know you have to:

"George Lucas come back. You are forgiven."
 

khoral

New member
My 2 cents...
To my opinion Lucas kinda saved Indy4 (sorry Lucas-haters;))
While arguably better than the early Indy4 drafts, the Darabont script is inferior in every way to the KOTCS one.

To be concise, the prologue is quite uninteresting (I do believe the magnetic alien coffin to be a funnier idea) and far-fetched (Indy being kidnapped by the russians makes a lot more sense than that "old friendship gone wrong" thing)
Marion does indeed have a bigger part, but she becomes quite annoying as the film goes on, and I think the lost son story works better than the jealousy subplot.

The dialog is either dull or really bad
(My favorite line, which kinda sums up how ridiculous the action is :
TURNER
Jones! You just stomped the
president of Peru!)

On several occasions, it?s just a copy-paste from previous movies
(For instance :
ESCALANTE
I have two dozen rifles aimed at
you and your men. I'm not afraid to
die. Are you?)

The villains are quite uncharismatic (can really anyone prefer Yuri to Irina Spalko?) and while John Hurt is a great actor, I?m not sure he could have saved the Mental Apeman characterization of Oxley.

The plot is quite unbalanced : we don?t get to know what the damn skull is supposed to do anyway before half of the movie, and the alien plot pretty much pops out of nowhere at the end (then we are presented with a VERY lengthy explanation)

There?s a thin line between the over-the-top comic-book-style action we?ve come to expect from Indy movies and the ludicrous plotting of the Darabont script
To name but a few : Indy eaten by the giant snake and the President of Peru (what the hell with that President of Peru character anyway????) turning into a frog?

Well, I could go on and on;)
Suffice to say I?m glad Lucas turned it down and while the KOTCS script isn?t perfect (may I remind you of the numerous plot holes and inconsistencies in the original trilogy?), it?s a lot funnier and exciting story, with better drawn characters and snappier dialog

(As a side-note, I understand and sympathize with Darabont?s resentment about the whole process, but he?s hardly the first professional script writer to have worked on an unused script)
 

agentsands77

New member
khoral said:
The villains are quite uncharismatic (can really anyone prefer Yuri to Irina Spalko?)
No, but I do prefer Yuri to Mac. And I do think Belasco and El Presidente together are a more interesting source of villainy than the poorly fleshed out Spalko.
 

eshine

Guest
Even Indys entry into the movie is weak.

He's blowing dust out of his face and says "damn kids", then walks into a diner where absolutely nothing happens, aside from watching his Russian freind poor Ketchup onto french fries...

exciting.

:sleep:
 

Royce

New member
Ok, I read it from start to finish.

Here's what i thought:

- The dialogue was much better. I thought it was more witty and less blunt with the humor. More dry... more like Last Crusade. I liked the interaction.

- There was more cheese in this one by far. Some of the scenes that Darabont wrote I could just see myself rolling my eyes in the theater. Stealing the fertility goddess all over, swinging on vines, landing on the tree and FOUR (that's right four) waterfalls. This was one was much more over-the-top I think. It may not have come off that way on screen but knowing how Skull actually looked, I'm picturing crazy scenes in my head.

- The alien ending was too much. As much as I disliked Koepp's ending, I love it compared to this one. Indy and the alien actually talking and interacting? No thanks. The saucer is still there and it seems to be much more pronounced.

- I like the character Yuri much more than Mac. He seems smarter and more defined about what his goals are. I like the USA/Soviet matchup the whole way through. Mac was British that was just a traitor. Yuri had dedication to his country. I didn't like the fact that Indy was so forgiving of him though. For a guy that was trying to kill you for two hours, Indy seemed to really let that go at the end.

- I hated the incorporation of Henry Sr. First, Connery wouldn't have done it, but that scene immediately brought back memories of National Treasure when Nick Cage was at his dad's house. It was almost the exact same scene.

- Marion was MUCH, MUCH better in this. This is what she should have been. The tough, witty, mean Marion that was in Raiders. She meant something to this movie unlike in Skulls where she did nothing.

- I wish Mutt were in it. I really liked Shia and think he could've added a huge dimension to this. He could've been a major tie between Marion and Indy and yet still had Marion married to Peter. But Mutt is there and Indy and Marion know their tie to each other.

- If you didn't like Skulls' wedding, this one would make you puke. Too much cheese, too much love. No good there.

- I love the airplane scene. I can just picture it so well. If they made Indy's transition from plane to plane believable, that would be an amazing scene.

- The snake scene? Come on. That would be ridiculous. First, saying Indy has changed and got over his fear of snakes? That stupid. And to have it swallow him because it's some mutant snake? That's too much.

- I like the opening. Seems like that worked pretty well. Much like the warehouse scene in Skulls but it gives more of an explanation how Indy got involved. Indy is there not by choice but because his hand was forced, much like Last Crusade. I think I like Skulls' opening better though.

- Using Temple of Doom's tagline once was pretty stupid. But TWICE? Come on.

- There's still WAY too many characters. I could just see a monster mess of people racing through the jungle. Indy, Marion, Escalante, Peter,Von Gruben, Yuri, Marion, Porfi (whoever the heck that is), Hama (whoever that is) and Oxley and Owald Turner. That's an insane amount of people.

- All in all, I think we got a better movie with Koepp's. If you could keep Darabont's witty but clever dialogue and combine that with Koepp's sequences and scenes I think we'd have a "B" movie instead of a "C." What would have made the movie great are a few changes. The script was decent but I can see why they passed it over. It wasn't near as wonderful as I anticipated and I think anyone that just loves it is nuts. It was ok, but I prefer the movie we got over what would have been if it were this one.
 

eshine

Guest
Royce said:
- Marion was MUCH, MUCH better in this. This is what she should have been. The tough, witty, mean Marion that was in Raiders. She meant something to this movie unlike in Skulls where she did nothing.
Hmm - I have to completely disagree.

For one thing, Marion isn't "mean". She's fiesty but I wouldn't consider her a mean character - and I could never imagine her becoming as humorless as she is in Darabonts script.

As far as her doing nothing in Skulls ?

She sends her son to find Indiana Jones and come help her in the jungle after being Kidnapped by Russians, basically setting the story in motion.

She reuinites with Indy in a helarious unveiling, berates him for walking out, escapes with him and Mutt and reveals that Mutt is their son while sinking in quicksand.

She has a very funny exchange with Indy in the back of the truck before hopping behind the wheel of another truck and being chased through the jungle, in the process coaching Mutt on his fencing, getting wacked in the head, ducking machine gun fire from spalko, plotting an escape (albiet a silly one) into the river via rubber tree and piloting down three waterfalls.

From then on out she is off and running through the rest of the film before marrying Indy at the end.

For someone who does nothing in the film, I sure am tired typing it all out ;)
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
agentsands77 said:
No, but I do prefer Yuri to Mac. And I do think Belasco and El Presidente together are a more interesting source of villainy than the poorly fleshed out Spalko.

Well, Yuri and Mac are rather different beasts. Mac has this interesting self-loathing thing going on, while Yuri is a magnificently dashing bastard, with a regrettable bit of Yakoff Smirnoff thrown in. I prefer Mac, personally.

I did like Belasco and El Presidente quite a bit though. Not sure whether I prefer them or Spalko. They're all rather different beasts than we've seen before, although Belasco is sort of a cross between Belloq and Victor Laszlo. El Presidente is a great trope who would definitely fit in an Indy film. Spalko, a mystic ideologue, is also a great fit. If there is an Indy V, I'd love to see a rendition on a tinpot dictator like Darabont had.
 

Way of the dodo

New member
On film Yuri would have been an annoying Russian Jar Jar Binks. And the biplane thing would have required even more phony greenscreen than the jungle chase. And really, there's too much Marion, (in the script and the movie. A cameo would have been plenty, there's too many characters). In the trilogy, Indy's character interactions were very deliberately designed to be NEW every time, because it's more dynamic. Mutt served the movie better.

On the other hand Darabont's ending did a much better job, with Indy actually DOING something.
 

James

Well-known member
eshine said:
For someone who does nothing in the film, I sure am tired typing it all out

Marion does get to be a little more proactive in KOTCS, especially compared to ROTLA, where she just kept getting captured (even by an airplane!).

She not only sets the adventure in motion, but later gets a chance to save Indy with a reckless plan of her own. And ultimately, she also helps him to regain the life he had lost in the beginning of the film.
 
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