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Old 02-14-2018, 07:01 PM   #26
Dr. Gonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I don't really want to argue the point any further. You have your opinion, I have mine, and neither one will sway the other's.

Seems to be the zeitgeist in America (and even abroad) these days.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:24 PM   #27
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Dr. G, it's nice to see you. We should get some bourbon together. I'm in Anaheim all the time.

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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
It's just called bad writing and character butchery. ...



You're correct, if you assume that Luke is a white knight hero. But he's not. And the evidence is strewn through the whole saga from IV on.

He failed in his rescue of the princess in IV, he failed in the cave in V, he failed to rescue Han in Bespin again in V, he failed at Jabba's palace in VI, he failed in his challenge before the Emperor in VI,...and like Yoda said in V, "If you end your training now… if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did… you will become an agent of evil." Yoda is never wrong. And sure enough, Luke even admitted his failure to Kylo, in VIII.

He's a 1/2 assed Jedi who had to tuck tail after his fathers death, because he realized his whole life is a failure. Hence his cynicism in VIII, and his mantra that the Jedi should end. (they really don't have that good of a track record of maintaining peace in the galaxy).

It's a profound character study of what it takes to take ownership of when you're wrong. No wonder the rebellion has lost it's way.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:34 PM   #28
Raiders112390
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Dr. G, it's nice to see you. We should get some bourbon together. I'm in Anaheim all the time.





You're correct, if you assume that Luke is a white knight hero. But he's not. And the evidence is strewn through the whole saga from IV on.

He failed in his rescue of the princess in IV, he failed in the cave in V, he failed to rescue Han in Bespin again in V, he failed at Jabba's palace in VI, he failed in his challenge before the Emperor in VI,...and like Yoda said in V, "If you end your training now… if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did… you will become an agent of evil." Yoda is never wrong. And sure enough, Luke even admitted his failure to Kylo, in VIII.

He's a 1/2 assed Jedi who had to tuck tail after his fathers death, because he realized his whole life is a failure. Hence his cynicism in VIII, and his mantra that the Jedi should end. (they really don't have that good of a track record of maintaining peace in the galaxy).

It's a profound character study of what it takes to take ownership of when you're wrong. No wonder the rebellion has lost it's way.

Again, you have your views, I have mine. You seem to agree with the scorched earth, "BURN THE PAST" theme of that stupid film. Harrison Ford has Alzheimer's and he is forgetting more and more every day - and he deserves it. Kill the past. Nothing matters. Luke Skywalker is and always was an incompetent failure and villain. Buy Disney stock.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:38 PM   #29
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Sorry I've been so combative about this. I just feel very disillusioned with a lot of things and have become quite the pessimist. I know you may like Last Jedi - and that's your right - but that film depressed me. KOTCS depressed me. The new KQ game brought me down. Basically, things I had an emotional attachment to and waited a long time for just all turned to crap I just feel like I picked the wrong things to love or grew up in the wrong time and that combined with other (real life) things just brings out a sense of bitterness I suppose. At one time I was open to the idea of an Indy V but I feel like it's a lose-lose proposition. If Harrison stars alone, they'll have to tone down the action and sense of adventure and if you do that it might as well not be an Indy film. If someone else stars and Harrison is left to bookend the film it'll feel dissatisfying and sort of a tease. If someone else stars alone I'll probably not like them (outside of Chris Hemsworth and Pine I haven't really seen any action stars under 40 who live up to those of old), and I really and truly don't trust Disney to get it right. They from all accounts utterly failed at casting a "Young Han" for the Solo movie, why should I have faith they'd do a Young Indy good? Disney also seems to have a very feminist agenda and I really don't want that inserted into what are period films set in the early-mid 20th century.

My way of doing it would just be go totally over the top and cast Harrison alone, use a stunt man and CGI Ford's face over him, and ignore his age completely, but that's never gonna happen.

I guess I'm just of the mindset now of just let it go. Let sleeping dogs lie. We had three classic films that, if we're being honest, couldn't be made today. Many elements of the original three would be termed "problematic" (God I hate that word) at best.

They're not only period pieces within the films, but they came from a certain mindset, time, and place (two dorky guys who idolized 1930s-1950s serials) that is very different from today. The original trilogy were the independent products of two nerds with a lot of creative freedom; the new film will be a product sculpted by committee and will please everyone and offend no one and probably not have much in common with pulp serials.
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Old 02-15-2018, 07:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
...nor would I want him confined to the role of narrator, and less so would I want some new guy.

...Why do we need more? Can't we let something die?

...sometimes it's just best to "let it go"...To let something die rather than selfishly ask for 'more, more, more.'
EXACTLY the way I feel except for your term of letting it "die". I'd prefer for the movie series to STOP after #5. Stop rather than "die". (There's a difference.)

The selfishness within fans has always made me chuckle, too. A returning Ravener recently wrote about Lucas & Spielberg "dragging their feet" between 1984-1989. It's a ridiculous complaint...made by somebody who was, obviously, not around at the time. "Crusade" was a surprise bonus rather than an expected thing. The desire for more is understandable but the whining is not. Be happy with what you already have.

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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I also have reservations due to the way Disney has handled Star Wars. I don't want Indy's character ruined or have it be some feminist thing where Indy has to "check himself" from "mansplainin" and have him be one-upped in his own film by a female sidekick in 1968 who can do everything he does better, man, because she's an empowered woman...

...Disney also seems to have a very feminist agenda...

...a product sculpted by committee and will please everyone and offend no one and probably not have much in common with pulp serials.
The BIGGEST issue of all. (Nevermind who is going to play Indy, it's the political correctness that I'm concerned about.)
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Old 02-15-2018, 09:27 AM   #31
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... just meant to be entertainment, not life-altering, angst-producing, and soul-crushing. If you think you’ll be entertained, go, get the big popcorn, escape... if not, go see the Incredibles 2, that looks like great fun too.
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Old 02-15-2018, 10:47 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
You're correct, if you assume that Luke is a white knight hero. But he's not. And the evidence is strewn through the whole saga from IV on.

He failed in his rescue of the princess in IV, he failed in the cave in V, he failed to rescue Han in Bespin again in V, he failed at Jabba's palace in VI, he failed in his challenge before the Emperor in VI,...and like Yoda said in V, "If you end your training now… if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did… you will become an agent of evil." Yoda is never wrong. And sure enough, Luke even admitted his failure to Kylo, in VIII.
I'd argue not all of those were failures (Jabba in particular was pretty clearly planned for, the lightsaber in R2 for example) but even assuming those were all failures, those were failures of running towards danger, running to help his friends (and later, family), running to help. Episode 7/8 Luke ran away and let his friends and family suffer. That doesn't track.

Not that the story couldn't be told that way, but they didn't lay enough foundation to make it work. 30 years passed and the audience is told "Luke's like this now, accept it". No, tell me why Luke is that way, and not through 3 minutes of flashbacks where he tries to kill his nephew. I can believe he's scared to train Jedi because of those flashbacks, I can't believe he's willing to let Leia, Han, Chewie, etc. die and the First Order to rule the galaxy because of them. Even without being a Jedi Luke is a crack pilot, Rebellion general, and leader and could help the Resistance.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I don't see a guy who was willing to lay down and accept being tortured to death with the slight hope of redeeming his father who has done untold crimes being willing to kill an unarmed sleeping boy due to a vision. This is a guy who went on basically a one man suicide mission with the hope of redeeming his father's soul, and he has a vision of Ben maybe doing horrible things and thinks he should kill him? Where were Yoda, Obi-Wan and such? How was Ben already 'turned' by Snoke? It just doesn't add up.

I also don't see a guy who risked everything for his friends leaving said friends p*ssing in the wind like a coward for 30 years because of one faulted action he did. He let the galaxy fall into ruin rather than accept his own failure; again, not something I see as being part of Luke's established character. Then for some reason he leaves a map to find him if he was needed, but then says he came to that planet to die and didn't want to be found.

It's just called bad writing and character butchery. I don't really want to argue the point any further. You have your opinion, I have mine, and neither one will sway the other's.

While I don’t always agree with your thoughts and opinions regarding all things Indy, I think you’ve absolutely nailed The Last Jedi. My thoughts exactly. (Although we are getting off topic I suppose)
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:42 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMa
I'd argue not all of those were failures (Jabba in particular was pretty clearly planned for, the lightsaber in R2 for example) but even assuming those were all failures, those were failures of running towards danger, running to help his friends (and later, family), running to help. Episode 7/8 Luke ran away and let his friends and family suffer. That doesn't track.

Not that the story couldn't be told that way, but they didn't lay enough foundation to make it work. 30 years passed and the audience is told "Luke's like this now, accept it". No, tell me why Luke is that way, and not through 3 minutes of flashbacks where he tries to kill his nephew. I can believe he's scared to train Jedi because of those flashbacks, I can't believe he's willing to let Leia, Han, Chewie, etc. die and the First Order to rule the galaxy because of them. Even without being a Jedi Luke is a crack pilot, Rebellion general, and leader and could help the Resistance.

Solid discourse. Solid. And well understood. (emphasis added)
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Old 02-15-2018, 05:50 PM   #35
Dr.Jonesy
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Originally Posted by Stoo
The selfishness within fans has always made me chuckle, too. A returning Ravener recently wrote about Lucas & Spielberg "dragging their feet" between 1984-1989.

It's less of a selfish thing and more of a point that the series had more in it than 3 or 4 films over a period of 35 years.
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