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Old 10-14-2009, 05:13 PM   #76
Insomniac
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Mark Hammil!

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Hell he would make a great washed up desperate Russian that would do anything to win back the respect of his comrades!
Basically a more sane Bond villian!



Last edited by Insomniac : 10-14-2009 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:01 PM   #77
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I have always wanted to see Indy in Argentina, battling with underground Nazis who escaped to South America in order to build a new Reich..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODESSA
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:04 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by San Holo
I have always wanted to see Indy in Argentina, battling with underground Nazis who escaped to South America in order to build a new Reich..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODESSA
Can someone say Temple of Doom!
Nice but I don't think so!
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:41 PM   #79
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They did something with a Reich-in-hiding in the Danger Girl comics.

Basically you need an enemy you can beat the crap out of and not feel bad about it. It's impossible to make them sympathetic.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:47 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ironclaw
They did something with a Reich-in-hiding in the Danger Girl comics.

Basically you need an enemy you can beat the crap out of and not feel bad about it. It's impossible to make them sympathetic.
May I ask why you should not a have a villain you can feel sympathy for?
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:36 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Insomniac
Mark Hammil!

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Old Check
Otherstuff Check

Hell he would make a great washed up desperate Russian that would do anything to win back the respect of his comrades!
Basically a more sane Bond villian!




Hahahahaha!

That's a great choice. I would actually not mind seeing this, it would be interesting if nothing else to see these two together on-screen again. It began with Star Wars, and it ends with Indiana Jones.



On second thought...
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:44 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by AlivePoet

On second thought...
It's a good idea!
Trust Me!


How 'bout this!

Main Villain: Liam Nesson
Secondary Villain: Tim Curry
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:39 PM   #83
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May I ask why you should not a have a villain you can feel sympathy for?

Because you're supposed to have clear-cut villains and heroes in pulp. If you have villains you can sympathize with, it makes the hero look like a bully when he beats the crap out of them. At least in this type of fiction, you have to have morally reprehensible characters/forces; it makes it all the more rewarding when they lose.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:45 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironclaw
Because you're supposed to have clear-cut villains and heroes in pulp. If you have villains you can sympathize with, it makes the hero look like a bully when he beats the crap out of them. At least in this type of fiction, you have to have morally reprehensible characters/forces; it makes it all the more rewarding when they lose.

The problem is that the Indy series hasn't gone along with this throughout the series. We've got Belloq, Elsa, and Mac as clear evidence of this - the first is charismatic and constantly pushing against the easily hated Nazis, while the other two are torn between their loyalties and ultimately have good feelings towards Indy, being more weak-willed and greedy than evil.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:47 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironclaw
Because you're supposed to have clear-cut villains and heroes in pulp. If you have villains you can sympathize with, it makes the hero look like a bully when he beats the crap out of them. At least in this type of fiction, you have to have morally reprehensible characters/forces; it makes it all the more rewarding when they lose.
I completely understand what the typical ironcast serial is but I was thinking of the few well thought out misunderstood villains of cinema (Darth Vader, Frankenstein, Prince Nuada, Tuco Picifico Juan Ramirez...) most work beautifully and I think Lucas and Spielberg could pull off a nice one with the help from a good writer but that is just my opinion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
The problem is that the Indy series hasn't gone along with this throughout the series. We've got Belloq, Elsa, and Mac as clear evidence of this - the first is charismatic and constantly pushing against the easily hated Nazis, while the other two are torn between their loyalties and ultimately have good feelings towards Indy, being more weak-willed and greedy than evil.
BRAVO!
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:07 AM   #86
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(Scratches head)

I thought we were (at least at this point in the forum) discussing villainous forces as a group, not specific bad guys. It stemmed from San Holo's mention of ODESSA.

I was getting to the point that the group Indy's against has to be despicable and motivated by either greed or thirst for power. To make an (extreme) counter-example, let's say that Indy's trying to find a mystical artifact that is being pursued by an enemy culture that needs it to survive (for whatever reason). And this enemy group will do whatever it takes to acquire said MacGuffin.

So they're killing/kidnapping/hurting people, but without said MacGuffin, they'll die out. So by "graying" the audience interpretation of the intention and actions of said enemy group, the hero is seen as less than heroic. We want a certain "lift" by Indy bringing down the tyrannical bad guys, not sitting there wondering "is he even doing the right thing?"

Call it what you will, but the Indiana Jones films have always been about good vs. evil, and it's been pretty clear-cut who's who. Indy may fight dirty, but he's still the white knight in the saga.

There are varying degrees of evil, but Belloq, Mac, and Elsa all fit into that camp. Belloq places the artifact and acquisition of such above all things (to which Indy doesn't by placing Marion first). Mac's a traitor, to which Indy's patriotism and loyalty is beyond reproach. And Elsa, like Belloq, places the possession of the item above what it's supposed to represent; although she's not as bad as Belloq, she made the choice to ally with the Nazi party.

Again, trying to make the point that you can understand why the bad guys are doing what they're doing, but we're not supposed to identify or sympathize with them.
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Old 10-15-2009, 04:07 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Hey, Col. Detritch. Check out these threads:

Thanks Stoo! I just though of one problem with my list, Communist China (Red China) is still around, and even though they were a U.S. adversary in the Cold War they haven't done much wrong. Plus something (don't quite remember the detailes at the moment) George Lucas said or did didn't go down well with the chinese and might prevent this from happening. And North Korea, well it to is was/ and still is a U.S. adversary but the back lash of using them as a villain might not be good. The Russian's had a bit of a back lash by using the Soviet Union saying it was "provoking another Cold War!" It's sad people have such negative back lash against a movie because they are the enemy (I think it would be pretty cool if done right)

Quote:
Originally Posted by San Holo
I have always wanted to see Indy in Argentina, battling with underground Nazis who escaped to South America in order to build a new Reich..

Wasn't that the basis of the Iron Phoenix point and click game that was cancelled?
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Old 10-15-2009, 05:41 AM   #88
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About time he met the mafia, isn't?

Plus there's always the fun underground secret society conspiracy-type stuff in a Da Vinci Code kinda-way. That needs to be done at some point; where it turns out the men at the FBI are really devil worshippers by night!

And no Nazis, please. It's old and hackneyed and there's no real point in even talking about it because Spielberg would never treat them like comic book villains again.
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Old 10-15-2009, 07:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by emtiem
About time he met the mafia, isn't?

Plus there's always the fun underground secret society conspiracy-type stuff in a Da Vinci Code kinda-way. That needs to be done at some point; where it turns out the men at the FBI are really devil worshippers by night!

And no Nazis, please. It's old and hackneyed and there's no real point in even talking about it because Spielberg would never treat them like comic book villains again.

I'd really like it if a new Indy movie showed the Dan Brown and the National Treasure movies how to do the "good guy up against Capitalist Western secret society". Also, it's a bit cliche, after the Mission Impossible and Bourne movies, to do the corrupt officials thing.... nevertheless, I'd still really like an Indy movie to take a stab. I also like your mafia idea...
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:03 AM   #90
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Definitely like the idea of corrupt government coming after Indy. IMO, that was a sorely missed opportunity for Indy IV. I was always expecting that the US Govt. was after him under suspicion that he was a communist and that would tie into the general story. But it wasn't really about that other than a small side story blurb.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:35 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I'd really like it if a new Indy movie showed the Dan Brown and the National Treasure movies how to do the "good guy up against Capitalist Western secret society". Also, it's a bit cliche, after the Mission Impossible and Bourne movies, to do the corrupt officials thing.... nevertheless, I'd still really like an Indy movie to take a stab. I also like your mafia idea...

Well, Indy movies are sort of supposed to do the cliches, aren't they? Restless natives, evil foreign generals... the characters aren't really supposed to break any boundaries! Corrupt officials; yeah, I'd like to see that. They should all wear little lapel badges of evil, too so we know that even when Indy meets a friendly policeman he's still in trouble!
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:42 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by No Ticket
Definitely like the idea of corrupt government coming after Indy. IMO, that was a sorely missed opportunity for Indy IV. I was always expecting that the US Govt. was after him under suspicion that he was a communist and that would tie into the general story. But it wasn't really about that other than a small side story blurb.

I'd agree. KOTCS had the promise of a story involving Indy clearing his name... but it was nothing more than aside in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emtiem
Well, Indy movies are sort of supposed to do the cliches, aren't they? Restless natives, evil foreign generals... the characters aren't really supposed to break any boundaries! Corrupt officials; yeah, I'd like to see that. They should all wear little lapel badges of evil, too so we know that even when Indy meets a friendly policeman he's still in trouble!

Oh I agree... Indy movies involve a wealth of cliché (I wouldn't want it any other way)... It was more to do with that the Indy movies have a tendency to borrow from the past, rather than borrow from the present/what's current. In our cynical age, it's easy to understand the plethora of movies that centre around being f**ked over by those who should be protecting us. Indy movies have always been quite comforting in their lack of cynicism and general black and white portrayal of good and bad.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:38 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
I'd
Oh I agree... Indy movies involve a wealth of cliché (I wouldn't want it any other way)... It was more to do with that the Indy movies have a tendency to borrow from the past, rather than borrow from the present/what's current. In our cynical age, it's easy to understand the plethora of movies that centre around being f**ked over by those who should be protecting us. Indy movies have always been quite comforting in their lack of cynicism and general black and white portrayal of good and bad.

Oh I take your point, yes.
Still, I suppose we are getting into the time of spies, so a bit of double crossing and undercover stuff could work okay- that's pretty Hitchcock, after all! In fact, spies would be pretty good baddies too.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:21 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by emtiem
Oh I take your point, yes.
Still, I suppose we are getting into the time of spies, so a bit of double crossing and undercover stuff could work okay- that's pretty Hitchcock, after all! In fact, spies would be pretty good baddies too.

Yep... I think that would be great.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:52 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Ticket
Definitely like the idea of corrupt government coming after Indy. IMO, that was a sorely missed opportunity for Indy IV. I was always expecting that the US Govt.
Ya have it like Fugitive only across seas!
Might work!


I really like Ironclaw's idea of a ruthless desperate faction to go against it being the Mc Guffin being the depending factor!
I can't really think of a strong enough force that would still dying off!
__________________________________________________ ______________

Communists might be the only political force Indy could go against ....

Mao Zedong and Stalin are the only two dictators up their with Hitler (death toll wise) and both where head of the their communist regime at the same time!

Stalin will do anything to keep himself in power even if it means death to thousands of soviets!

Mao will do anything to unify the world as long so they can use his way of life!
So maybe we could have a face off of Communists both looking for the answers to make a global communist system!
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:10 PM   #96
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How about the KKK during the Civil Rights fight in the 60’s. There could be an evil Grand Wizard who is hell bent on overthrowing the Government, played by someone substantial like Russell Crow, and he could have direct ties to the Nazis that fled to South America after WWII. Indy could have adventures in the swamps of Louisiana, the Mississippi Delta and the back woods of Alabama. One person on an earlier post stated that Indy movies had to have a villain that no one would feel sorry for, and I can’t think of a villain that is hated more that the KKK and Indy’s old foe the Nazis.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:45 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Nelligan
How about a rouge revolutionary in the early 60’s from a small island just off the coast of Florida. He could wear army fatigues, a little flat topped army hat and have a beard. Indy could be saving treasures from a museum that he didn’t want to be lost to a new communist Dictator?????

It works with the time line if we keep moving forward.


It is a very close match to Nazis!
But I'd find it hard for Spielberg and Lucas to put it into an Indy film!
I think I like the Cuban idea a bit more than the KKK!

So maybe Indy must break into a museum crawling with guards to shoot anyone not in uniform in Cuba or Russia or China he must get an artifact to point him to the Relic he is going after a similar mission to acquiring the headpiece from the Raven.


Make it like an old jail break scene!
Ya. It will feel like the Last Crusade moment when they are getting out of Brunwald!

Like the prison films of the day...
Spot lights...
Sneaky tactics...
Being clever with the little option he has...
Pure Fun!

Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) - One of the best war movies as well.

The Great Escape (1963) - 1963 epic that featured an ensemble cast of near heroes.

Stalag 17 (1960) - William Holden as a prisoner in a WWII German POW camp. Inspired the hit television series, Hogan's Heroes (1965)
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Insomniac
It is a very close match to Nazis!
But I'd find it hard for Spielberg and Lucas to put it into an Indy film!
I think I like the Cuban idea a bit more than the KKK!

So maybe Indy must break into a museum crawling with guards to shoot anyone not in uniform in Cuba or Russia or China he must get an artifact to point him to the Relic he is going after a similar mission to acquiring the headpiece from the Raven.


Make it like an old jail break scene!
Ya. It will feel like the Last Crusade moment when they are getting out of Brunwald!

Like the prison films of the day...
Spot lights...
Sneaky tactics...
Being clever with the little option he has...
Pure Fun!

Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) - One of the best war movies as well.

The Great Escape (1963) - 1963 epic that featured an ensemble cast of near heroes.

Stalag 17 (1960) - William Holden as a prisoner in a WWII German POW camp. Inspired the hit television series, Hogan's Heroes (1965)



Cuba circa 1959ish...

There could be sea planes and submarines, car chases through downtown Havana, and maybe even some Russians on the island. They could even work in JFK.
He could be trying to re-rescue some of the artifacts that he has unearthed over the years that were on loan to a museum in Havana for an exhibit, but have been taken over by Fidel and his revolutionaries. Havana of the early 60’s was a beautiful place and would make a great backdrop for an adventure film. There could me mobsters, casinos, and they could even bring back Willie Scott who has been working as a singer in a Havana casino, and Short round who I believe was taken in by Willie after TOD.
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:39 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Jack Nelligan
Cuba circa 1959ish...

There could be sea planes and submarines, car chases through downtown Havana, and maybe even some Russians on the island. They could even work in JFK.
He could be trying to re-rescue some of the artifacts that he has unearthed over the years that were on loan to a museum in Havana for an exhibit, but have been taken over by Fidel and his revolutionaries. Havana of the early 60’s was a beautiful place and would make a great backdrop for an adventure film. There could me mobsters, casinos, and they could even bring back Willie Scott who has been working as a singer in a Havana casino, and Short round who I believe was taken in by Willie after TOD.

Sounds good to me!

DEEP IN THE HEART OF RUSSIA - FIDEL CASTROS ISLAND HAVANNA - THE ANTARCTIC this would be nice places for an "Indiana Jones"-movie
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Hanselation
Sounds good to me!

DEEP IN THE HEART OF RUSSIA - FIDEL CASTROS ISLAND HAVANNA - THE ANTARCTIC this would be nice places for an "Indiana Jones"-movie


All three of those locations could be worked into the story nicely! Maybe even Washington D.C.
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