holy grail, does it exist?

Kill Cavalry

New member
lol, "Indiana Jones and the Plauge of the Web"

Back you frenchmen! *whips them* Back dutchies! *whips them*

Anyway, yes the artifact may exist, but it certainly wouldn't have immortality powers. It's a Christian artifact, and Christianity practically revolves around the thought that we'll all get it in the end.
 

Genevieve

New member
Sorry, Tim... I am American. But I have been to England and have relatives there, if that is any consolation. And I have been having emmense cravings for a traditional tea with scones, jam, and lovely clotted cream, which I have much difficulty in finding here! Why do ask? Are you English? Anyways, I am going to have to say that my favourite indy movie would have to be...Its a hard cross between the lost ark and the last crusade, and if i had to pick I'd go with the ark. Sorry! I am assuming yours is the Crusade? Have you read any of the indy novels? I can only find a couple here. They are not all that popular. I ordered one from Barnes and Noble a month ago... It seems that the publisher has to reprint the book, just for me and its taking a Very long time... Bah. I cant wait until the new movie comes out... And the playstation game for that matter...

And in regards to Kill Cavalry~ I am afraid that you have Christianity terribly mistaken. Not that I want to get into a theological argument, but Christianity does not revolve around the fact that everyone recieves immortality, if you will. Rather it centers upon the belief that Christ died and rose again to save everyone from their sins and eternal damnation. Salvation has nothing to do with an earthly immortality, but an eternity in heaven found through the belief in Christ's death and resurrection. Therefore, a single artifact such as the mythified grail in the last crusade does not prove to encapsulate Christianity. It holds no consequential significance in the scheme of things. Tim had said earlier that the makers of indy wrote the screenplay under the assumption that people knew something of the topic. I thought that to be an adequette guess. But in reality, unless someone actually knows the facts before they view the movie or does not approach a topic half heartedly or with assumption, there is bound to be some misunderstanding on the side of the veiwer or subject that cannot be prevented.
Dont get me wrong... I love the indy movies to death. They sparked my love of history and archeology as a young child, and feed my imagination to this day. I am sure it is one of the reasons that i am minoring in anthropology and am split between going to medical school or digging in the sand of egypt for the rest of my life, both of which suit my passions well. I am a die hard fan to the end and will continue to be so forever. I just think that someone should know all the facts before they sahre an assumption disguised as fact.

Sincerely,
Genevieve
 

Tim

New member
Easy there boys and girls, lets not start world war three here.
Genvieve, yes I am an Englishman, and proud of it. I haven't read any of the Indy novels... I know, I'm evil and should be struck down. I simply can't find them. And I must agree scones wouldn't be right without jam and clotted cream. I still don't get jelly and peanut butter.
Back on to subject, I'd have to sit on the fence for this little one. I agree with Kill in that in Christianity everyone is expected to die. But to the same extent, what's heaven if not eternity. You may not neccessarilly be 'alive in the normal sense of the word, but it is an immortal existence.
The Indy Jones films turn the myth into fact, and the myth a myth of the Grail is that it would give the possessor immortality.
 

Kill Cavalry

New member
I think you misunderstood, Genevieve. I was rather vauge. When I said "get it in the end" I meant that judgement is passed down in Christian beliefs at the end of a life. There is no earthly or material immortality, but there is a spiritual one after death. So, living eternally on earth would be a way of cheating the diety. Basically I agree with you!
 

Genevieve

New member
Reading over my post, I did sound a little grouchy. Forgive me, I only got about 3-4 hours of sleep within a 48 period at that time. I am sure that you meant well when you said that Kill, No hard feelings? And Tim, Dont feel bad about the novels. I can barely find them here. Like I said before, they are really not in popular demand. And how can you not enjoy peanut butter and jelly?! *lol* I guess its like clotted cream and jam here. When i say it, people think that I am nuts!!! Oh, and I know that this is off the subject... But if you had to choose between Oxford and Cambridge, which would you recommend as a better school? Thanks alot!
~Genevieve
 

Tim

New member
It all depends what you want to go there for. Cambridge has always been thought of as the science institute, where as Oxford is the English, history type institute. If you choose to go to Med school I'd recommend Cambridge. But for archaeology I'd recommend Swansea. Best school in the world for archaeology!! With out a doubht.
Are you thinking of studying here in sunny ol' England?
 

Genevieve

New member
Yeah, I am, actually. The University that I am going to lets me study abroad for a semester to two years. There's a bunch of places that you can choose, but I have relatives in England, and I actually really enjoyed going there. And besides, its central enough that I can fly out of the country for a few days to visit other places. I think that I can pretty much pick where I want to go. The tuition is the same either way, I just loose my scholarships for that time period. Ill just take out loans, I guess. in regards to medical school or archeology... I will probably major in biomedicine with a minor in cultural or physical anthropology. I am not sure yet. I dont think that they will let me combine the archeology minor with the biomed. I will have to wait and see. I am really quite split with the decision though. I would love to go to Egypt and work there for the rest of my life, but again I will just have to wait and see how everything works out... What part of England are you from? Anywhere I've been? Oh, and here's another fun England question... Can you find Charles Dickens house? You'd be suprised how many people a block away from it had no clue what so ever! Anyways, I feel as though I am babbling on... and on... and on... And very off the subject of indy I might add. Have you ever seen teh movie the majestic with Jim Carrey? The idol used in the opening scenes of The Raiders of the Lost Ark, is used in a clip of a reproducation of an old movie that is shown in the Majestic and unless you really noticed it, you would never know that it was there... Well, I must go. Kwaheri! (Goodbye in swahili)
~Genevive
 

Tim

New member
No I'm affraid I've never seen that film, but I'll certainly keep me eyes peeled. Charles Dickens house is in Portsmouth, which is about a thirty minute drive from me. But I've never actually been there.
I've known a few American students that have done what your doing and they had a great time.
You don't have to be an archaeologist or have any archaeological training to get on a dig, you could be the medical or anthropological (blimey, ain't that long??!) specialist.
Let me know how things go.
~Tim
 
Where in the Bible...

...is there an inanimate object that gives the possessor a wonderous power?

Give me chapter and verse. I know of no such allusion.

Even the Ark of the Covenant is NOT described in that way, the way it is described in the flick. This stuff about religious relics and their mystical powers came centuries afterwards and could be described as left-handed idolatry.

I think Mark Twain or someone once said you could build a cathedral of two out of all the splinters of the True Cross.
 
Actually, Solomon's son stole the Ark of the covenant and crossed the border to Bethshemesh with it. They were so inflicted with boils rashes and death that they brought it back to Solomon. But he had ordered a fake ark built so that people wouldn't revolt. So, the real Ark went missing...(Ethiopia?) And the FAKE was buried in Tanis...
 
Darn close

thegreatimposter said:
And what about the Horn of Jericho?

Good suggestion.

But, is it written anywhere that who possesses the horn of Jericho can make walls fall down? I think it was Joshua rather than the horn that was key.

If, say, Goliath, had used the horn, would it have worked for him? My guess not. You had to be favored. Not just anyone could use the horn or Moses' staff, David's sling, Sampson's jawbone of an ass,etc. The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object.
 

Von Beck

New member
Actually, Solomon's son stole the Ark of the covenant and crossed the border to Bethshemesh with it. They were so inflicted with boils rashes and death that they brought it back to Solomon. But he had ordered a fake ark built so that people wouldn't revolt. So, the real Ark went missing...(Ethiopia?) And the FAKE was buried in Tanis...

Why would the FAKE then have all those supernatural powers then? Maybe the real one not only had the powers but with those bonus 10 Commandants and radio as well. :D
 
I was under the impression that you were starting a commentary on what the Bible actually says, and what it doesn't. Where is it written that "The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object."??

And as for the Fake Ark having power? Religious artifacts may retain power. Even if you try to fake one. So, maybe the fake Ark brings death and the real Ark brings... oh, wait, different artifact...
 
No, no magical trickets with eveready batteries

thegreatimposter said:
I was under the impression that you were starting a commentary on what the Bible actually says, and what it doesn't. Where is it written that "The miracle was in the chosen user, not in the chosen object."??...

It doesn't. But where in the Bible does it say Joshua used the horn and the walls came tumbling down. Then a decade later Waldo used the horn and the walls came tumbling down. Then Brittany picked it up several decades later and she made the walls come tumbling down.

All these miraculous items are all one-shot deals, they deal with a single occasion, a single crisis. They are not handed over to others and surely not others outside of the tribe or religion. Nor are they found, stumbled on, won in a poker game, or unearthed.

Nope it doesn't say expressly, but no where do magical props do magic for whomever possesses them. At least not in the Bible as translated into English. I'm not as familiar with the Pentauch as written.

[Edited by Broomhandle Davis on 05-01-2003 at 08:41 pm]
 

DrJones56

IndyFan
I have a theory...

The theory is, people in Biblical times were all from Missouri, they had to see it to believe it. So God had to pull a few tricks to get these people's attention, that's why there were a lot of Visions back then. Anywho, just a possible explanation. ;)

As far as whether it's real or not, I know it exists one way or another, it could be a chalice, or it could be a blood line, more practical theory, you never know. But some of you guys have it wrong, the Grail doesn't have healing powers, Spielberg took the Bible's talk of 'Blood of Jesus Christ giving you eternal life', he simply took the spiritual facts and made them into a cool visual feast. So you see, it didn't have powers, Jesus could have used it at the last supper, but you never know. Over time it has been mixed with myth to where nobody knows for sure.

Now, if it weren't an actual object it would be the blood line, shoot, I forgot all these names, been so long since I really studied it, but there was a Rabbi who wrote a book, he talked a lot about stuff like this, made sense, I'll have to search around for the title, but he laid it out. And he was a Jew who believed Jesus was the Messiah, so he was coming from a true believer's perspective. Anyway, it's one of those mysteries, but if we did ever find out the grail was a real object and it existed and we could prove what it was, it wouldn't do a thing, just make for a very cool cup. ;)

As far as God giving powers to an inanimate object, look at the Ark, it's what the Bible says he did, he 'lived' in the Ark, now I know, God is everywhere, this is one of those things that gets tricky, it's God's way of playing with our heads I guess, but that's what he says. We got a guy in Ethiopia who claims to have the Ark, he says that he can only approach it. Why is this bogus? Cause when Jesus died, the covenant was complete, and the veil was rent, and the Ark was then just a gilded box. If you still don't have a clue about what I'm talking about, try reading Luke 24, that talks about the death of Jesus.

But anyway, just my thoughts.
 
If you found an object, or was "given" an object that could destroy city walls, or wipe out whole armies, would YOU leave it lying around for others? Or would you hide it? Hence the Indy movies.

PS - the Ark DID do damage to others, 'cause they didn't know how to carry it, remember?
 
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