holy grail, does it exist?

British_Lion_2003

New member
I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.
 

bob

New member
British_Lion_2003 said:
I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.

A grail maybe, but not THE grail as it doesnt really exist as a relic.
 
Okay, you budding archaeologists, get real

bob said:
British_Lion_2003 said:
I couldnt be bothered to read all the posts but I have seen the Holy Grail on the news.

Its in some Church in Italy and behind like some bulletproof glass.

A grail maybe, but not THE grail as it doesnt really exist as a relic.


The son of a carpenter in about 30 AD would not, I believe, have drunk out of anything fancy enough to be called a "grail." It might have been a carved wooden mug or a dried gourd or some pottery or crockery.

The wood or gourd wouldn't have survived. What do you find a good amount of in archaeologic sites? Broken pottery and crockery. Shards. They wouldn't have survived.

Statistically there were at least 13 people present. Who would have even remember which cup/mug was his? If it had magical curative powers how would those magical curative powers have been discovered?
 

bob

New member
Well i think that IF anything like the story in the New Testemant ever happened i would imagine that the Chalice would become something of central importance to them. However as far as i can see there was no culture of collecting relics until centuries after, and the early Christians were a very unwidely mob full of different sects it would be likely that a Grail would have been lost.

Also the fact that our sole source talking about the Grail is a work of Fantasy starring a Legendary King written over a thousand years later.
 
Actually our sources are a little more acurate than the Arthur fables. The grail cup is one of the central artifacts to the Cathar beliefs and also plays a symbolic role in Freemasonry. I suspect that although the bible is vague and embellished there are secret societies that do maintain the items of worship. Heck, if we see a celebrity now people want their signature on a piece of paper, as arbitrary as it is. So why not keep the cup that caught the blood of some guy who people think is a man of prophecy and who sacrificed himself for thousands. Sure beats a signature...
 

bob

New member
thegreatimposter said:
Actually our sources are a little more acurate than the Arthur fables. The grail cup is one of the central artifacts to the Cathar beliefs and also plays a symbolic role in Freemasonry. I suspect that although the bible is vague and embellished there are secret societies that do maintain the items of worship. Heck, if we see a celebrity now people want their signature on a piece of paper, as arbitrary as it is. So why not keep the cup that caught the blood of some guy who people think is a man of prophecy and who sacrificed himself for thousands. Sure beats a signature...

The Cathors werent around until around 1000 years after the Grail was lost (i think at least?)
The Freemasons did not turn up until 17th Century or so

The idea that the Grail caught the Blood of Jesus is a Legend and not mentioned in the NT or any of the heretical gospels.
 
Freemasons were knights templar who were hermetic order of the golden dawn...

They were around...

The origins of the Cathars began AT THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH. The church started killing 'em off about a thousand years later....
 

bob

New member
thegreatimposter said:
Freemasons were knights templar who were hermetic order of the golden dawn...

They were around...

The origins of the Cathars began AT THE TIME OF JESUS DEATH. The church started killing 'em off about a thousand years later....

The Freemasons have made up a lot of rubbish about themselves the fact is that they are a rich and influenticial persons club essentially; there is no line between a warrior monk order of Knights and Freemasons, the sucsession of the Templers runs through the Hospitilars.

Even so the Templers are still 1000 years after the time of Jesus

As far as i understand it the Cathars were a neo-gnostic group and there is no tradition of the Grail through them. These cults popped up and they fell only for their ideas to appear again hundreds of years later; there is no unbroken line of continuity between the Cathars and early christianity.
 
It was my understanding that the Cathars were responsible for the Grail art seen in stain glass windows in the olde churches speckled across europes countryside. These churches were also fronts for Hermetic orders.

But you mentioned Hospitilars? Can you give me more info about them, I've never heard of 'em...
 

bob

New member
thegreatimposter said:


But you mentioned Hospitilars? Can you give me more info about them, I've never heard of 'em...

They were a bit like the Templers except without the power and the mystery; the Hospitilars were a lot more closely linked to the state structure than the Templers were. They existed from around the 13th or so to the 16th century when Monastic orders of Knights melted away.

The last direct link with the Templers and the Monastic orders were the Knights of St.John who resisted out numbered 10 - 1 by Turks when they besieged Malta; the Knights ruled Malta until the time of Napoleon.
 

Sankiesh

New member
As an historian, I can tell you there isn't definetively any REAL evidence of templar continuity after the order's desolution. All templars who survived became hospitallers or, as Desmond Stewart puts it "peniless men."

All the myths of templar-massonery connection are false, as are all the other "facts" people seems to know. The templars being a diabolic congregation, the templars as a modern-day institution of power and treasure-hunting (as is suggested in the novel: Tresure of the templars, a western story"), all those things are false. But Phillip the fair created so many lies to be able to judge them (including general homosexuallity), that the popular imagination began to fly. Even today many "official" templar orders exist, and many esoteric books and groups take their spiritual ideas form the templars' false mysticism. Even Umberto Eco wrote a book about it, accepting later that he just wanted to prove how people can be fooled with historic myths.

About the holy objects and great treasures, I can only say the following. The Arc of the Covenant was supposed to be kept on Salomon's Temple. That's why it is said it was kept by the templars. There is no evidence of these. Even Salomon's temple was destroyed and the Templar's headquarters wa not the temple itself. About the holy grail, I do not doubt the templars may seen it or keep it in a time, but there is little probability of this. The Arthurian knighty mithology shows the cup of Christ as an unreacheable goal. Only one of the great number of knights searching it actually found it, and that was because he had a pure heart, Percival if I remember well. At the end of the day, medieval writers would not write of the grail as such unreachable object if it was in the templar's grasp.

Finally, the templar treasure, I think, is also a post-medieval myth. I dont believe that a plan so well made as the arrest on Friday 13th would go without reaching its principal goal: to refill the royal chests. Phillip the fair would not create such an intrincate plan to let go part of the money.

Anyway, all this objects have been great inspiration for novels and movies, such as Indiana Jones, "The Templar Treasure", "Treasure of the Templars", and many others.
 

Venture

New member
In reference to the Grail, there is no biblical record of a cup catching the Lord's blood. And since the belief in the Grail stems from Christianity, wouldn't the Bible be the final authority?
As to the location of the Ark of the Covenant, Revelation 11:19 says:
"And the temple of God which is in heaven was
opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared
in His temple, and there were flashes of
lightning and sounds and peals of thunder
and an earthquake and a great hailstorm."

Sounds like bad news for us earth-bound treasure hunters. I've also heard rumors that a group of Israeli archaeologists actually located the Ark with imaging equipment underneath the Temple Mount. Supposedly, resident rabbinical leaders were aware of its presence since the time of Manasseh, when it was hid in tunnels and chambers within the Mount. This area is presently under Palestinian control, and so the archaeologists were called out by the Israeli government to keep from making a stink. Take it or leave it.
 

westford

Member
Cain said:

"And the temple of God which is in heaven was
opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared
in His temple, and there were flashes of
lightning and sounds and peals of thunder
and an earthquake and a great hailstorm."

Isn't "which is in heaven" referring to God rather than to the temple? I know by modern grammatical standards that would be incorrect, but isn't there a version of the Lord's Prayer that begins "Our Father, which art in heaven..."?
 

Venture

New member
If you read about the construction of the tabernacle in Exodus, you'll find that God said that the earthly schematics were a reflection of a heavenly temple. This was the reason the Lord was so specific with the dimensions. The ark was the place of God's earthly manifestation, and was therefore a typology of his throne. As to the specific Scriptures, I'll post them at a later date. Good call, though.
 
Hey Cain, what temple mount are you talking about? The one you said was in HEAVEN?!?!? Can you clear that up by giving the name of the temple that rabbinicle leaders say is buried there, and maybe a link to the official story...
 

Venture

New member
The temple mount is the one in Jerusalem that the Dome of the Rock now stands on. The temple mount isn't in heaven , God has a temple in heaven mirrored by the one on earth. As far as the information about the tunnels and chambers underneath said mount, an evangelist/Hebrew scolar named Billie Brimm (sp?) has stated that information, and her web site should have the full disclosure.
 
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