Williams' score

Darth Vile said:
TOD even starts with an orchestral version of ?Anything Goes?? not even an original composition! KOTCS is a far superior soundtrack in every respect.



KOTCS starts with Elvis Presley. Not even an original composition.
 

Crack that whip

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Indeed, though the Elvis tune isn't on the soundtrack album. It's also worth pointing out that if one wants to get really technical, there are several seconds of original Williams scoring (for the Paramount logo / "mountain" transition) prior to the appearance of Elvis.

But then again, the specific version of "Anything Goes" used in Temple of Doom was done for that movie - not just the performance / recording, but the arrangement (and even a lyrics translation), whereas "Hound Dog" is just the classic vintage track plunked right into place; "Anything Goes" does even incorporate some fleeting moments of original scoring in its own beginning (and blurring the diegetic and non-diegetic elements, for a fusion of score / source).

But still again, there's also plenty of original Williams music in both scores, both on the albums and as-yet-unreleased. Both are highly thematic and clearly "Indy" scores, though both are also quite characteristic of Williams' scores in general at those two different points in his career. They can certainly be compared and contrasted any number of ways, but in the end both have their own distinctive strengths, as well as a few they share. There's no reason one can't enjoy one, the other, both (or neither!), and one's personal preferences really don't require justification - if one likes one score more than the other, both equally, or whatever, then so be it.
 

Darth Vile

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herr gruber said:
KOTCS starts with Elvis Presley. Not even an original composition.

As Crack that Whip states... It's not on the OST and it's not the same thing.

Williams spent time, effort and money orchestrating "Anything Goes" for TOD. I'm pretty sure Williams had no input to the cover of "Hound Dog" used at the start of KOTCS.
 
Darth Vile said:
As Crack that Whip states... It's not on the OST and it's not the same thing.

Williams spent time, effort and money orchestrating "Anything Goes" for TOD. I'm pretty sure Williams had no input to the cover of "Hound Dog" used at the start of KOTCS.


Exactly my point. I'm pro TOD.
 

Crack that whip

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I love 'em both. I do have somewhat different connections to them, as I can't help but do so given how one is a longtime favorite I grew up with and have enjoyed for decades while the other is something virtually brand new that I'm still exploring, but certainly, both are more than merely worthwhile to me.

I will say that Temple of Doom is the one more direly in need of an expanded release, since there's so much great music that didn't make it to the OST; Crystal Skull isn't complete, either - none of them are (not even with the 1995 expansion of Raiders), but Temple of Doom is the one with the greatest gulf between the total body of music composed for the film and the amount of that represented on its soundtrack album, and we simply must get a more comprehensive release of this one day. I really want complete new editions of all of them, but if I could have just one, it'd be Temple of Doom, since that's the one for which a complete presentation would be the greatest improvement over what we've gotten so far.
 

Niteshade007

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Since Marion's Theme was my favorite song in the original trilogy, I was glad to see it back. I haven't bought the soundtrack, so I don't know if it's on there, but it was in the movie, so that had me happy.

I like Irina's theme, although I feel like we don't hear very much of it. I heard it when we comes out of the car in her first scene, and I don't remember hearing it again. I haven't heard the song all the way through, but I liked the brief bit I did hear.
 

Crack that whip

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Marion's theme is in two tracks on the soundtrack album - the concert arrangement of "The Raiders March" (aka the Indy theme) that begins the album, and the "Finale" track, both during the wedding scene and again in the credits sequence. It also appears a few times in the movie during the jungle sequence, but none of those instances made it to the album.

Irina's theme actually appears quite a bit in the movie, although sometimes just briefly, and sometimes when competing with sound effects and/or dialogue for attention. This excellent cue list and analysis at jwfan.com should let you know in exhaustive detail what themes are heard in what cues, what cues go where in the movie, and what music is on the album and what's not (and here's another such analysis, just in case the first doesn't get the job done).
 

Cagefighterkip

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the Indy 4 soundtrack was the weakest of the 4 movie soundtracks, but it was still a fantastic score.
the Jungle Chase track is particularly stirring and fun, the FINALE is stupendous and almost tear inducing. nothing beats the RAIDERS MARCH mos def, but Irinas Theme and the Russian music is genius and sounds like classic Indy. the reuse of the old music rules of course (Map Room/Ark, Raiders March, Marions theme and a couple other cues)...

its good but the weakest (8.5 out of 10)--

1) Temple of Doom score
2) The Last Crusade score
3) Raiders score
4) Crystal Skull score

(y)
 

No Ticket

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robisindy said:
Excellent post. Zimmer isn't a bad composer, and I would agree that the score for the Dark Knight does fit the movie very well. It is not the kind of score that is great to listen to on its own, though. I think he probably could have created a more memorable theme for the Joker and still had it fit in the film, but obviously that didn't matter too much.

That being said, I don't think that John Williams score fit KOTCS any worse than Zimmer's fit TDK. They both accented the movie they were made for quite well. Zimmer's score is dark and in a way harsh, like the movie. Williams' score is light and fast paced, like the movie.

It is interesting that Nolan had the score to listen to while making the movie. A different approach, but it's hard to argue with the results - it's a great film.

Actually, after Ledger died Zimmer said he almost went back and re-did the Joker's theme to be more thematic to give it a more grand feel, but decided against it because he felt the "chaotic" nature of it was fine the way it was.

... I think TDK's worked better than Williams on Indy. Williams is KNOWN for his very memorable themes, and nothing in this film was up to snuff. Nothing we hadn't heard before. I would sit around the house humming the themes of TOD or LC, but I can't recall (even after seeing it more than once) any particular new theme from KOTCS.

That's too bad. I think the score works fine with the film, my problem lies mainly in that it's just not as good as the other Indy scores as it brings nothing grand to the table. And there's no excuses there. You can't say "He couldn't possibly top himself" or "You were expecting too much" because I don't think music works the same way. I write music myself and it's largely just hit or miss, you really don't know what you're going to come up with. I think we were all with-in the right to expect something great. If nothing else TPM gave us Duel of the Fates... which IS up to par with the older trilogies music if you ask me.
 
No Ticket said:
... I think TDK's worked better than Williams on Indy. Williams is KNOWN for his very memorable themes, and nothing in this film was up to snuff. Nothing we hadn't heard before. I would sit around the house humming the themes of TOD or LC, but I can't recall (even after seeing it more than once) any particular new theme from KOTCS.

That's too bad. I think the score works fine with the film, my problem lies mainly in that it's just not as good as the other Indy scores as it brings nothing grand to the table. And there's no excuses there. You can't say "He couldn't possibly top himself" or "You were expecting too much" because I don't think music works the same way. I write music myself and it's largely just hit or miss, you really don't know what you're going to come up with. I think we were all with-in the right to expect something great. If nothing else TPM gave us Duel of the Fates... which IS up to par with the older trilogies music if you ask me.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the KOTCS score. I like it, I think it worked well, I thought the themes were memorable, and I enjoy listening to it just as much as the other soundtracks. And I don't really understand the criticism that there is nothing in it that we haven't heard before. There is a new theme for Mutt, a theme for the skull (which is the one theme that I would agree falls well short of the themes for the ark and the grail), an awesome new action arrangement on the Ants! track, a latin arrangement on the Journey to Akator track that we haven't heard in past Indy films - I just think there's some very good material there. It's instantly identifiable as an Indiana Jones score, but has enough new material to distinguish it from the others. Obviously, you don't share that opinion, but as someone that listens to all four scores at least two or three times a week, I feel that the new one is on par with the others.
 

Darth Vile

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No Ticket said:
Actually, after Ledger died Zimmer said he almost went back and re-did the Joker's theme to be more thematic to give it a more grand feel, but decided against it because he felt the "chaotic" nature of it was fine the way it was.

... I think TDK's worked better than Williams on Indy. Williams is KNOWN for his very memorable themes, and nothing in this film was up to snuff. Nothing we hadn't heard before. I would sit around the house humming the themes of TOD or LC, but I can't recall (even after seeing it more than once) any particular new theme from KOTCS.

That's too bad. I think the score works fine with the film, my problem lies mainly in that it's just not as good as the other Indy scores as it brings nothing grand to the table. And there's no excuses there. You can't say "He couldn't possibly top himself" or "You were expecting too much" because I don't think music works the same way. I write music myself and it's largely just hit or miss, you really don't know what you're going to come up with. I think we were all with-in the right to expect something great. If nothing else TPM gave us Duel of the Fates... which IS up to par with the older trilogies music if you ask me.

I think the most damning thing about the TDK score is that you could mute it and it wouldn?t make the slightest difference to the movie i.e. it?s mostly background noise that just adds to the overall volume of the movie. Still, it has its moments.

I think KOTCS brought plenty ?to the table?? at least 3 new thematic pieces, which may or may not be better/worse than Williams more well known pieces, but which are very welcome nonetheless.
 

No Ticket

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robisindy said:
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the KOTCS score. I like it, I think it worked well, I thought the themes were memorable, and I enjoy listening to it just as much as the other soundtracks. And I don't really understand the criticism that there is nothing in it that we haven't heard before. There is a new theme for Mutt, a theme for the skull (which is the one theme that I would agree falls well short of the themes for the ark and the grail), an awesome new action arrangement on the Ants! track, a latin arrangement on the Journey to Akator track that we haven't heard in past Indy films - I just think there's some very good material there. It's instantly identifiable as an Indiana Jones score, but has enough new material to distinguish it from the others. Obviously, you don't share that opinion, but as someone that listens to all four scores at least two or three times a week, I feel that the new one is on par with the others.

I didn't say there was nothing new. I said there wasn't anything new that was up to par with the themes presented in previous Indy flicks. I found nothing as catchy as Escape from Venice in LC. I couldn't even begin to tell you how Mutt's theme goes... but walking out of the theater I'm sure I'd remember the grail theme.

This is my point. "instantly identifiable as an Indiana Jones score" ??? ... "but has enough new material to distinguish it from the others" ... do you know how generic you just made the score sound? I don't care if it sounds like it's Indy... the music just wasn't as good. The trek theme in TOD is much better than anything in this one.

And Mr. Vile, that was the point of TDK's score. It's supposed to add moodyness to the film. It is not thematic. Do you know what I mean when I say thematic? It does make a great deal of difference to me if you just mute it... I think the "hum" build-up to the scene where Joker is chasing down Harvey works ridiculously well to add to that scene. This is not a film with a triumphant march.

That being said, I still agree Williams can score films better. The way his music flows throughout, say, the opening of Raiders... is great. Again though, this is not what Zimmer was trying to do. So you cannot really compare these two except on which you feel added to the film more. I felt like Williams score didn't add as many musically memorable moments that accentuated the film as well as Zimmer's.
 
No Ticket said:
I didn't say there was nothing new. I said there wasn't anything new that was up to par with the themes presented in previous Indy flicks. I found nothing as catchy as Escape from Venice in LC. I couldn't even begin to tell you how Mutt's theme goes... but walking out of the theater I'm sure I'd remember the grail theme.

This is my point. "instantly identifiable as an Indiana Jones score" ??? ... "but has enough new material to distinguish it from the others" ... do you know how generic you just made the score sound? I don't care if it sounds like it's Indy... the music just wasn't as good. The trek theme in TOD is much better than anything in this one.
I don't think that it makes it generic if the tone and style match that of the score from the previous films. I think all of the three original scores have a similar style which ties them together, while the new themes in each help to play up the differences. Does that mean I'm making the first three sound generic now? I can understand if you don't care for the new themes in this movie as much as you did the old ones. Clearly, whether or not you care for the new music is subjective - I can like it just as easily as you can dislike it. And like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It seems that the problems people have with the score are directly related to their problems with the movie. Is the problem really that the themes aren't memorable to you, or that the scene in the movie which goes with it isn't memorable enough (or, perhaps more appropriately, is a scene you're trying to forget)? :)
 

No Ticket

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robisindy said:
I don't think that it makes it generic if the tone and style match that of the score from the previous films. I think all of the three original scores have a similar style which ties them together, while the new themes in each help to play up the differences. Does that mean I'm making the first three sound generic now? I can understand if you don't care for the new themes in this movie as much as you did the old ones. Clearly, whether or not you care for the new music is subjective - I can like it just as easily as you can dislike it. And like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It seems that the problems people have with the score are directly related to their problems with the movie. Is the problem really that the themes aren't memorable to you, or that the scene in the movie which goes with it isn't memorable enough (or, perhaps more appropriately, is a scene you're trying to forget)? :)

No it has nothing to do with the movie or any particular scene. I could appreciate the theme all by itself if they were truly that great. But they are not. They may be of the same "style and tone," but that does not make them equal or better pieces of music. I don't need anyone to tell ME what GOOD music is. I know. And I know this is okay music while some of the themes in the previous flicks were MUCH better.

I am not even thinking about the context of the film, but I'm looking at it merely from the standpoint of the music itself. And yes, music is subjective, but that's a cop-out. Right now I can think of a bunch of themes off the top of my head from any of the other Indys and they are all much more memorable than anything I can recall hearing in KOTCS.

But I also don't think Williams writes themes as well as he used to. Heck, Home Alone had better music than anything I heard in this one.
 

Darth Vile

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No Ticket said:
And Mr. Vile, that was the point of TDK's score. It's supposed to add moodyness to the film. It is not thematic. Do you know what I mean when I say thematic? It does make a great deal of difference to me if you just mute it... I think the "hum" build-up to the scene where Joker is chasing down Harvey works ridiculously well to add to that scene. This is not a film with a triumphant march.

Of course that's how they'd try and justify it? but I just don't think Zimmer is that good at it. This was not an exercise in experimental cinema, the score was borne out of pretension and lofty musical values. If the score adds little, it has little value... For everything that TDK got right, there was limited palpable tension or emotion in the entire movie... and Zimmer has to take some responsibility for that (as that is the raison detra of a score).

Also, I've heard enough Zimmer music to compare and contrast outside of TDK, and I just don't rate him. Whilst he does have some merits, I don't think he'll ever be in the list of great movie composers.
 

Darth Vile

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No Ticket said:
No it has nothing to do with the movie or any particular scene. I could appreciate the theme all by itself if they were truly that great. But they are not. They may be of the same "style and tone," but that does not make them equal or better pieces of music. I don't need anyone to tell ME what GOOD music is. I know. And I know this is okay music while some of the themes in the previous flicks were MUCH better.

I am not even thinking about the context of the film, but I'm looking at it merely from the standpoint of the music itself. And yes, music is subjective, but that's a cop-out. Right now I can think of a bunch of themes off the top of my head from any of the other Indys and they are all much more memorable than anything I can recall hearing in KOTCS.

But I also don't think Williams writes themes as well as he used to. Heck, Home Alone had better music than anything I heard in this one.

You are sort of contradicting yourself here… Are you stating that your word is the law and you can scientifically prove that, for example, “Irina’s Theme” is not as good as “Short Round’s Theme”? Or are you simply stating that in your opinion you don’t think they are as good? If it's the former, I'd like to see some musical evidence to support the argument. If it's the latter... then it's just an opinion right? And all opinions are valid... even if our opinions differ.
 
No Ticket said:
No it has nothing to do with the movie or any particular scene. I could appreciate the theme all by itself if they were truly that great. But they are not. They may be of the same "style and tone," but that does not make them equal or better pieces of music. I don't need anyone to tell ME what GOOD music is. I know. And I know this is okay music while some of the themes in the previous flicks were MUCH better.

I am not even thinking about the context of the film, but I'm looking at it merely from the standpoint of the music itself. And yes, music is subjective, but that's a cop-out. Right now I can think of a bunch of themes off the top of my head from any of the other Indys and they are all much more memorable than anything I can recall hearing in KOTCS.

Darth Vile said:
You are sort of contradicting yourself here? Are you stating that your word is the law and you can scientifically prove that, for example, ?Irina?s Theme? is not as good as ?Short Round?s Theme?? Or are you simply stating that in your opinion you don?t think they are as good? If it's the former, I'd like to see some musical evidence to support the argument. If it's the latter... then it's just an opinion right? And all opinions are valid... even if our opinions differ.

Thank you, Vile. Well stated and exactly what I was thinking.

I'm not trying to tell YOU what GOOD music is, No Ticket. I'm just stating that in my opinion this score doesn't rate as low as it does in yours. But I didn't realize that you don't have opinions about music. Instead you are apparently the beacon of absolute truth and perfect judgment in music.

Stating that musical taste is subjective is a "cop-out?" The last time I checked, I can like a piece of music that you don't, and neither one of us is wrong. It's taste. It's subjective. And because of that I've never implied that you are wrong, attacked your viewpoint, or attempted to give the impression that I felt my opinion was better than yours.

I happen to find the themes from this movie memorable. I can recall Irina's Theme, Mutt's Theme, The Jungle Chase, A Whirl Through Academe, and Journey to Akator as easily as I can the themes from the other films.

You have every right not to like the score to this movie, and to feel that the themes in the previous movie were much better. But I don't need someone to tell me what good music is. I'll listen to it, and then I will have my opinion of it.

And, on a side note, I completely agree with you about The Dark Knight score being perfect with the movie.
 
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