TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > The Films > Indiana Jones Trilogy
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-04-2010, 12:01 AM   #1
mrbender
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21
Question Why does everyone hate Temple Of Doom?

I have noticed a lot of people complaining about it. But personally its my favorite.

Why does everyone hate Temple Of Doom?
mrbender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 12:19 AM   #2
Rocket Surgeon
Guest
 
Rocket Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,872
Special effects instead of Stunts.

The "Moonraker" of Indiana Jones movies.

Lawrence Kasdan's comments "I just thought it was horrible. It's so mean. There's nothing pleasant about it. I think ''Temple of Doom'' represents a chaotic period in both their [Lucas and Spielberg] lives, and the movie is very ugly and mean-spirited."

Spielberg: "Indy II will not go down in my pantheon as one of my prouder moments."

Many critics believed it lacked the wit and nerve Lawrence Kasdan had managed to provide in the first film.

Willie Scott.

Last edited by Rocket Surgeon : 09-04-2010 at 12:30 AM.
Rocket Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 12:56 AM   #3
kaokan123
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 36
I wonder the same thing...Temple of Doom is my favorite also.
kaokan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 02:15 AM   #4
Matt deMille
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 490
I think it's about the dark side of fandom. As a fan myself, I see these minds at work often. We tend to overthink and worship movies. They are our gospels, our Greek myths, our religion. But, humans still being human, we also have a sheep mentality. See, nobody really complained about Temple Of Doom UNTIL Last Crusade came out. Suddenly, there were two movies very similar (given how much of a rip-off LC was of ROTLA), so TOD simply seemed "wrong" because it was "different". It's pack-animal mentality. We fans (yes, *we*, meaning I too) tend to viciously defend our stories because they are so important to us. Unfortunately, that oftentimes turns us against who and what we should love, too (welcome to religion).

Now, TOD does tend to hinder itself a little bit, leaving itself open for criticism. Mostly, unlike Empire Strikes Back (the oddball compared to the other two Star Wars movies), there isn't an overriding we-can-latch-onto-it mystical element. Probably because it's basically about Hinduism, whose underlying themes are off-key to the larger audience. Western audiences and their preferred feel-good stories are generally based on Christian themes. Heck, even The Force is basically a "faith" as we simplify it. So, TOD doesn't give us that "feel-good-magic" like Yoda's teaching does (I know, technically it does, but we're talking about peer pressure from the mass audience here). In addition, TOD simply suffers from having to follow-up ROTLA -- it's a tough act to follow!

When LC came out, everyone (rightly) praised Connery's chemistry with Ford. That tended to blind them to how much LC was lacking in so many other areas. The sheep-mentality kicked in -- "The stars are great, we're saying it's great, so the whole movie must be great, and Raiders was great and it's the same, so that must be what great is, so, um, TOD, you're different, so you suck". That's pretty much where this general thinking came from. IMHO.

I believe, however, that TOD is vastly superior to LC. In many ways, it's the best Indy movie of them all, the most "pure Indy". Indy's in his element. No school, no family crap, no being in a suit. It's hat, whip and chaos from start to finish. To me, that's what Indy is all about. It's a pity so many people can't bring themselves to enjoy it simply because there aren't Nazis (again) or classrooms (again) or soap opera (again). TOD has a variety that was sorely lacking until KOTCS came out.
Matt deMille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 02:42 AM   #5
mrbender
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21
That makes sense its get picked on for being different .
mrbender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 04:14 AM   #6
indyswk
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
No school, no family crap, no being in a suit. It's hat, whip and chaos from start to finish.

Well, he's in a suit at the beginning.......but point taken.

ToD has two elements which are my absolute favorite: The scene where Indy starts to save the children (starting from around the part a Thuggie guard gets shoved across the floor) and basically whoops everyone's ass almost right till the end, and the accompanying music. I personally I think it's the BEST ever score of an Indiana Jones music by John Williams (after the Raiders march, of course).

In my opinion, ToD is better than KOTCS. The only problem is that it just has a bit too much screaming in it. Scene by scene, I don't think there is much I would want to change or thought it would work better differently, except the screaming part and when they first encounter the worshipping scene (slightly long there. Cut by some 30 seconds would've been OK).

KOTCS has more scenes that I would prefer left out, too many scenes that you think would lead to something but we get nothing.
indyswk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 04:20 AM   #7
indyswk
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
See, nobody really complained about Temple Of Doom UNTIL Last Crusade came out.

Oh yes, I do recall some controversy over the depiction of Indians on ToD, and how it wasn't veryu suitable for children. So there were some real complains of it when it came out.
indyswk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 05:53 AM   #8
chicago103
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 191
I don't hate it, it's just my least favorite. I also don't think it's sheep mentality, at least not for myself. It seems somewhat popular to dislike KOTCS and that one is often cited as being "not as good as the first three" but I disagree because I prefer KOTCS to TOD.

Temple of Doom is still a fun film but to me overall it is just the most average and least impressive of the adventures. I know some people might not like the college scenes and the soap opera aspects (Marion, Henry Sr., Mutt) but I have always liked them. The college scenes are the closest thing we have to Indy having a dual identity on the level with Batman and Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent and Superman, it's the hero with the hat and whip pretending to be just a bookish and nerdy academic. Marion, Henry Sr. and Mutt are all about character development and internal continuity of the series. Unlike the James Bond series Indy is not timeless, he ages as the series goes along.

In Temple of Doom we lack those college scenes that ground Indy and set up the main adventure in some way. Also there is no lasting character development, Short Round is never heard from again and neither is Willy. It is also a prequel for really no good reason, most people besides hardcore fans don't even know its a prequel. I think its a fun movie and I am glad it is a part of the series but from a character development point of view you could skip it and people won't be lost in LC and KOTCS because no aspects of it reemerge.

Also the McGuffin is the least earth shattering. The Ark was captured by the Nazis and could have changed the balance of the world and it ended up being stored in the warehouse by the US government. The Holy Grail also had the potential to help the Nazis change the balance of the world. KOTCS showed aliens/transdimensional beings, truly it would be one of the most amazing discoveries in human history. Sure MolaRam had some vague plot to take over the world with Kali but somehow it didn't across as clearly as the others. Sure Indy saved children and a village and its heartwarming but you don't get the same "Indy saved the world" feeling as with the others.
chicago103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 07:43 AM   #9
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbender
I have noticed a lot of people complaining about it. But personally its my favorite.

Why does everyone hate Temple Of Doom?

It's quite obvious that not "everyone" hates TOD.

What's with all the hyperbole?

Case closed.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 08:27 AM   #10
indyswk
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicago103
Temple of Doom is still a fun film but to me overall it is just the most average and least impressive of the adventures. I know some people might not like the college scenes and the soap opera aspects (Marion, Henry Sr., Mutt) but I have always liked them. The college scenes are the closest thing we have to Indy having a dual identity on the level with Batman and Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent and Superman, it's the hero with the hat and whip pretending to be just a bookish and nerdy academic.

The problem here is that in ToD we do see him as a bookish / nerdy acedemic. In the Pankot Palace, where he is having his dinner. And he is well known, being called 'Dr. Jones, the famous archeologist' at first visit. That's his 'college scene' right there, just in a different setting. Because ToD is a prequel, we are introduced Indiana Jones as he is, a world famous archeologist who gets hired to retrieve valuable artifacts, or sells whatever else he chances upon on any expedition to the museum for a price. The museum will 'gladly take it, as usual'. So we know him as somewhat a thief/mercenary in Raiders, and this is confirmed in ToD where he's gotten into life threatening situations before (it's my.... misunderstanding). I don't understand the 'superhero' reference because to me, Indy is always Indy, there is no alter ego or whatever. Anyways, my point is, to me the college scene is somewhat also in ToD.

Quote:
In Temple of Doom we lack those college scenes that ground Indy and set up the main adventure in some way. Also there is no lasting character development, Short Round is never heard from again and neither is Willy.

This is up to our imagination but it's not hard to figure out that Short Round (being too young to do anything else alone) is adopted by Willy at some point before Raiders. Or is in China with a new foster family. It really is up to our imagination what happened. But as for character development:

Quote:
a character development point of view you could skip it and people won't be lost in LC and KOTCS because no aspects of it reemerge.

To me, as I mentioned above, ToD is sort of a reaffirmation of the kind of person Indy really is. In KOTCS, there is also charater dev, and that is fine to me, but the problem is the film itself. Why is there a ripping sound as Indy got Mutt's knife? I expected something but nothing. Why did they step on quicksand (yea to establish Mutt as Indy's son but it's weak)? Some of the dialogue are very weak too, compared to the rest of the trilogy. The waterfall should lead to something but.. we see Marion holding the wheel. The tree cutter. The gophers. Etc. Too many anti-climactic scenes. Akator looks like a cave, 5 rooms and a field in between. That kind of things.

Quote:
Also the McGuffin is the least earth shattering.......Sure MolaRam had some vague plot to take over the world with Kali but somehow it didn't across as clearly as the others. Sure Indy saved children and a village and its heartwarming but you don't get the same "Indy saved the world" feeling as with the others.

Well, it's a weak one, but when I watched it, I felt Indy saved the children, the village, and the also the world. Sure maybe if Indy didn't save it someone else might because MolaRam is quite a weak 'baddie' compared to Nazis and his plan was sure a slow one to rule the world but Indy did save the world nevertheless. In fact, at the end scene, my feelings about it and LC are pretty much the same. Raiders end scene was spectacular though.
indyswk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 08:42 AM   #11
indyswk
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montana Smith
It's quite obvious that not "everyone" hates TOD.

What's with all the hyperbole?

Case closed.

Sorry didn't notice this. But can I just put my personal opinions on it (see above)?
indyswk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 02:38 PM   #12
DocWhiskey
IndyFan
 
DocWhiskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,386
ToD is still my favorite Indy adventure. Sure, RotLA is a better movie. Heck, LC is even a better film. But ToD is the Indy movie I pop in when I've had a tough day and just want to watch some mindless fun action. It's just a fun movie meant solely to entertain. It's over-the-top and a bit silly. But in a good way.
DocWhiskey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 05:14 PM   #13
Matt deMille
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by indyswk
Oh yes, I do recall some controversy over the depiction of Indians on ToD, and how it wasn't veryu suitable for children. So there were some real complains of it when it came out.

What I meant is that FANS didn't dislike it or say it was a weak entry into the Indiana Jones series, until Last Crusade came out. The negative feelings towards Temple of Doom came entirely from the media and myopic-minded parents saying it was evil, wrong for children, etc. Let's not forget that TOD (and Gremlins) established the PG-13 rating. So, the controversy was that aspect of it, not whether it was a quality Indy movie.
Matt deMille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 06:48 PM   #14
Sharkey
Guest
 
Sharkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the balcony, stage right.
Posts: 446
They twisted an adventure hero into a cartoon.
Sharkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 09:07 PM   #15
Matt deMille
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey
They twisted an adventure hero into a cartoon.

That may be. But the cartoon element was much more evident in Last Crusade, which most fans seem to adore. Funny, 'cause it's usually the same ones who despise Temple of Doom. Were it not for Temple, then Crusade would not be the film they seem to like so much.
Matt deMille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 11:27 PM   #16
Sharkey
Guest
 
Sharkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the balcony, stage right.
Posts: 446
Man you never tire of talking out of you ass do you. Most fans, did the aliens tell you this? You're more arrogant than ME!

Crusade was less a cartoon than Doom.
Sharkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 01:58 AM   #17
chicago103
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt deMille
What I meant is that FANS didn't dislike it or say it was a weak entry into the Indiana Jones series, until Last Crusade came out. The negative feelings towards Temple of Doom came entirely from the media and myopic-minded parents saying it was evil, wrong for children, etc. Let's not forget that TOD (and Gremlins) established the PG-13 rating. So, the controversy was that aspect of it, not whether it was a quality Indy movie.

I think its because when TOD first came out people kind of assumed this is what an average Indiana Jones film would be like and that ROTLA as the original is in a league of its own. With LC there was a film more people thought was in the same league as ROTLA and thus TOD looked bad by comparison, the same thing with KOTCS, it is only dissapointing when compared to ROTLA and LC. TOD and KOTCS are good and worthy entries to the series but not great or at least that seems to be the majority opinion.
chicago103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 02:23 AM   #18
Sakis
TR.N Staff Member
 
Sakis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Greece
Posts: 601
Although, Temple was the first Indy film I ever saw and I really enjoyed, when I saw Raiders and Crusade it was clear that Temple was the weakest of them all. Maybe that is because of its darkness. IMHO.

Last edited by Sakis : 09-06-2010 at 02:29 AM.
Sakis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 10:13 AM   #19
AndyLGR
IndyFan
 
AndyLGR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 837
I dont hate the movie, but its the weakest of the original trilogy for me.

I think it lacks the scope and adventure of Raiders. The story is weaker, just many movie sequels are. I also think the macguffin doesnt have the interest like ROTLA and TLC do.
AndyLGR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 10:29 AM   #20
Matt deMille
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 490
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyLGR
I dont hate the movie, but its the weakest of the original trilogy for me.

I think it lacks the scope and adventure of Raiders. The story is weaker, just many movie sequels are. I also think the macguffin doesnt have the interest like ROTLA and TLC do.

That is for certain. The Ark and Grail are very well known legends. The Stones were unknown to general audiences and therefore not as important to them. Did Lucas or his writers make those up or are they real? I'm asking rhetorically. I assume that question is what many moviegoers asked themselves, whereas the Ark and Grail were already well known and -- to many -- even "real".

Hmmm, what could the macguffin in Temple been if not those stones? I've always wondered about that.
Matt deMille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 10:01 PM   #21
DeepSixFix
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 79
TOD Rocks

"Temple of Doom" is an excellent movie. For some reason it's too "dark" for some people who can't handle it. They deleted the heart removal scene in Britain because people couldn't deal with it. It's how Indiana Jones was meant to be, not the light-hearted "Last Crusade." Some people like "Indy," but I prefer the darker "Jones." It's up to you.
DeepSixFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2010, 10:50 PM   #22
Matt deMille
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 490
Right on! I prefer the darker tone of Temple to the light-hearted fare of Crusade. To me, the main difference is a sense of danger. In Crusade and especially Kingdom, you just don't really feel that gripping fear of mortal peril like you did in Raiders and especially in Temple. If Indy's not in deep, deep trouble, it's not quite Indy to me.
Matt deMille is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 06:55 AM   #23
AndyLGR
IndyFan
 
AndyLGR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepSixFix
For some reason it's too "dark" for some people who can't handle it. They deleted the heart removal scene in Britain because people couldn't deal with it.
Not really, it was deleted (or made more subtle) so that it got the rating that the studio wanted otherwise it would have got a 15 rating in the UK as opposed to PG.

Wasnt the heart seen referred to as a bad thing in many US reviews though?

I think the fact that the story is weak with no real sense of scope to the film or any real adventure (in comparison to Raiders especially) makes it the worst of the original trilogy for a lot of people.
AndyLGR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 06:57 AM   #24
shazamtd
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Indiana
Posts: 93
ToD is the "black sheep" of all the Indy movies. That's what I like about it.
shazamtd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 07:27 AM   #25
Montana Smith
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazamtd
ToD is the "black sheep" of all the Indy movies. That's what I like about it.

And not to mention the appearance of evil Indy under the "black sleep".

I always feel there's something special about TOD. It was strange, evil, sinister, and shocking after ROTLA. It plunged into unexpected depths of depravity, the murky under-belly of society. For me, all that made it perfect Indy territory.
Montana Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 PM.