College Educated vs. Non-College Educated

I'm in college, just starting my second semester but am beginning to have doubts...
I like to read a lot, and I don't mean to sound arrogant but literally evertything fed to me last semester was something I already knew or something that could be learned simply by opening a book on your own.

My parents are professional people, Nurses, so I guess a job you could consider white collar ($80,000+ a year in the '90s when they worked)..But no so good personally (my father is a very mean person with alcohol issues and is miserable in his life and my mother has over an d over again enabled him; my father is a Hippie in the old fashioned sense of the word, long hair, sandals the whole bit) and they consider anyone without a degree to be a loser--an almost arrogant attitude.'

I'm expected to get my degree on time and be a little goody two shoes and do everything straight--and I have. I've never done drugs or drank, never been arrested (by the time my dad was my age he had been multiple times)--I'm chastised by my father for having doubts about college and wanting to take time off (for personal reasons) yet he didn't get his Associate's Degree until age 33 and his Bachelor's Degree until age 40...But I'm supposed to do it NOW or get out...But anyway.

I look at the models of their parents--my grandfathers. Both were blue collar men, hard workers who had the opportunity to go to college (because of the GI Bill) but declined and one worked as a Security Guard/Postal Worker and the other a Foreman for the Park's Department, and both loved their jobs and were respected--Yet made crap money. But they nonetheless loved their jobs, made friends there and didn't seek anything more--and they were better people in general
My parents on the other hand, were miserable at their jobs for the large portion of their careers yet made good money--but had personal demons or issues perhaps greater than those of their parents.

Maybe it's just that they came from the whole Hippie materialistic generation, that one's goodness or worth is defined by a degree--As I've said my parents have called those without degrees losers--and maybe it's simply the divide I have with them and that whole generation's mindset--or maybe it's something larger that many overlook in society.

It's just sort of a dillema I face and maybe some of you can relate to...It's not that I don't have regard for intellectualism or knowledge but I think those are things that you can teach yourself by picking up a book or just observing life or interacting with others. I don't think there's too much in college (except maybe Medicine and Physics) that a person of average or above average intelligence couldn't teach themselves if they really wanted to learn and expand their knowledge.

On the other hand, I realize that a degree is a greatly respected thing in our society and leads to a much higher salary....But in many ways it seems it's an ornament to many, like "Look at me, I'm great, I have a degree, you don't, you're not."

It boils down to the question of--what defines success in life? Is it the money you make, the job you have? Does it mean being a professional or college grad? Or can success in life simply be defined by being happy at what you do, even if you're not a rich man by the end? Is wealth and ''being a success'' really everything there is to life? In my opinion, if that's the whole, most important point of life than life really is just a shallow pool of materialism...And maybe it is, and maybe I'm simply naive.

It's a philosophical sort of question I pose to you and something I've been asking myself since I sort of stand at the crossroads of my own life, being 19....

To put it this way:

Who is the bigger success in life: The rich man who is wealthy beyond imagination yet knows no love and works and lives in misery or the poor man who works hard at a rough job, loves it, is beloved by all he knows and content with himself?

Yeah, I certainly understand that your parents are a contradiction- perhaps it's because they just want what they think is best for you. Note that I said "they think". However, I've found it takes time to find out what's best for you. I didn't really know when I was 19 (now 21 and half, I know a little better).

I don't know about the US and what society over there thinks in general about college education, but I can tell you about Australia.

Australian schools obsess over final year high school students going into college, only because those who want/need to go, will aim for a high score and that makes the school look good, so it becomes propaganda. However, when it comes to respect for people with degrees, it depends on the field that degree is based.

For instance, my degree was in Film and Screen Media Production. A lot of people, turn their noses up at me for picking, studying and graduating from that degree, because it isn't a big industry (even my own grandfather would insult me). Teachers that knew me in school told me, that I was too smart to be filmmaker. I personally believe that as long as you're happy, being too smart would be the least of your problems.

Admittedly, things didn't work out the way I had hoped, and after a year of certain realisations and post graduation, I realised that it wasn't the right place for me and after a chance job interview and some research, I'm now returning back to do a second degree in business, with a major in marketing.

Now, I have friends who put me down for going back to college and for things having not worked out. The fact is you're made to make decisions when you're young and frankly stupid. However, if I was 17 again, I would do it the same anyway, because I am happy in the knowledge that I gave it my best shot and the world didn't end. If I didn't give it a shot, I would be living with a lot of regret right now.

And yeah, if you did read enough (I read a lot myself), you would find the same information - problem is you can't exactly write that on a resume or a certificate and assignments are good practice at the understanding and skills needed for what you're learning. My parents are blue collar btw, and my father has qualifications as an electrician, however now days he's a white collar, as a business man, a National Manager of a starting out air conditioning company and he doesn't have a degree, however it took him over 25 years of extremely hard work to get to that point.

I guess that's why you get a degree, it's meant to be a way of making your career faster at getting the position you want. Degrees and qualifications are nearly the same price here, so people figure that they get a degree coz employers tend to like that better.

To me, the biggest success in life is to be happy within yourself and with the life you are living, for richer or poorer. Once college starts and I can re-boot a few things in my life at that point, I will be happier. I'm already happier just for finishing my application to college today. I haven't been happy for the past two years, and I think I'm finally at the light at the end of the tunnel.

To me, success is being contented. Money can buy you all the things you want, but what's the fun in owning everything? The more you get the more you want. If you have to struggle and wait for something, I'm sure you gain more contentment when you finally own that thing.

I also found that when I was earning really good money, I wasn't happy as I was never relaxed enough to be able to enjoy it. There was no joy in a weekend spent dreading the return to work on Monday.

In professional terms I've wasted my Degree in English Literature and History. I attained the highest grade possible, and by rights I should have become a lecturer. However, that wasn't the sort of job I would feel relaxed to be in, so I drifted. Personally I don't think that my degree was wasted, as I really enjoyed those years, and what I learned will always be a part of me. I even began a Ph.D part-time, but this became difficult with work commitments, so I never finished it.

So, I do measure success by contentment. However, there are those super-rich people whose contentment is derived from simply making money. It's as though money making is both their work and their hobby.

My advice is to do what you feel is right, not what others feel is right for you. Try to have a vision of where (and who) you want to be (which is something I never had), and follow the path that will take you there.

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I'm a firm supporter of autodidactism. I've met plenty of educated fools. We all need education though, and it's education that is the ultimate solution to all problems, superstitions, and questions we face.

Peru1936 said:

I'm a firm supporter of autodidactism.

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The day we stop learning is the day we stop breathing, it just depends how you apply what you learn.

Peru1936 said:

I've met plenty of educated fools.

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A case of mis-application of learning, or those that think they already know it all. The way I see it is that the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

Peru1936 said:

We all need education though, and it's education that is the ultimate solution to all problems, superstitions, and questions we face.

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Yes, more education and more questioning is the key to sorting the facts from the fiction.

First of all, yes, it sounds like your parents are totally screwed up. Many people's parents are, including mine, so I sort of know where you're coming from. (I'm 38, so I have some additional perspective.)

One thing I'm guessing about your dad's contradictions (like, 'go to school now even thought I didn't finish my associates until I was 33') is that on some level he wants you to make better choices than he did. He just can't bring himself to open up enough to say it.

Along those lines, my strong advice is to *not* make any decisions based on wanting to go against your parents. In other words, if they want you to go to college, don't decide not to go just to spite them.

You talked a lot about how your grandparents loved their blue collar jobs and were beloved by all, even though they didn't have degrees. Your parents, on the other hand, spent a lot of time in misery, even though they made more money and had degrees. Let me tell you this. It didn't have anything to do with the jobs or the degrees. It had to do with each person's spirit. Your grandparents probably would have been just as happy and just as loved by others if they had PhDs and taught college. Your parents would probably be miserable no matter what they were doing. (I'm not dissing or judging your parents, just basing my thoughts and comments on what you've presented.)

So don't go blue collar just because you saw your grandparents happy. The job isn't the key. Look at other aspects of their lives. A generation or two ago, I dare say, they may have been going to church regularly. God has slowly gotten edged out of society in the past 50 years. ((I work in Christian television, so I could go off on your need for JC, but I won't force that on you...yet...)) Around WWII, they were known as the Greatest Generation because of their service to their country and their self sacrifice.

You called hippies materialistic, but I think you're a little off there. Hippies actually wanted to be fully intellectual, often communistic (in the sense that everyone should get along, work together, work toward the common good, and share everything "Peace, love, and harmony, man!!"). They were rebelling against what they saw as their parents' materialism.

Now, grandparents' generation went for self sacrifice, while the hippie generation eventually became totally egocentric, which was really far from what they were initially shooting for. It was all about them, their ideals, their vision, their thoughts, their creativity, their rejection of society, etc., etc., etc. They wanted to save the world, and wound up barely being able to take care of their own kids. I will also say emphatically that drugs and alcohol ruined a lot of people's lives, and that was something you really didn't see nearly as much of in generations past.

All that to say those are bigger reasons your grandparents were happy and your parents aren't. There are plenty of happy people who have advanced degrees, good jobs, and lots of money. And there are plenty of miserable people working blue collar jobs. Money can't buy you happiness, but poverty can buy plenty of misery.

And, heck, if you have a PhD, you can still work a blue collar job if you want to do that. You'll just have more options. My dad always said if you have a job that you love, you'll never have to work a day in your life. Find something you love to do and do it. Just look 20 years down the line and make sure you're choosing wisely.

And also consider the time involved for different jobs. You don't want to be married to your work, or you'll never have time for family, hobbies, etc. I hate to see people who slave all year, just counting down the days to their one-week annual vacation. That's a lousy existence.

So, don't judge your parents. Learn from them. Learn from what they say, and learn from what they do. Here's one final warning. As your parents' kid, you'll have to work hard so you don't fall into some of the same patterns. I know you're probably saying, "I'll never be like that," but that's not really the way it works. You've soaked up 19 years of habits, mannerisms, and ideas. You'll have to actively change some of that if you want to be happy like your grandparents.

Bon voyage, and God speed.

This is a pretty fascinating discussion, thought I'd weigh in with a few opinions.

First off I completely agree with goodeknight when he say you can still do blue collar stuff despite your PhD, the more options you have the better, life is long and unpredictable (in the best possible sense) and what happens in College doesn't always determine the rest of your life. I'm 27, I have a Certificate in Animation, a BA in Archaeology and History and a postgrad acting course under my belt, in between I've been a construction worker, a security guard, a waiter, an archaeologist, a stilt walker, a teacher, an actor and a scarer (working as a zombie under london bridge) and many more things besides. In this day an age lives aren't as easy to define as they may have once been, they're not always simply blue collar or white collar. They're far FAR more exciting then that.

Goodeknight mentions that your father probably doesn't want to see you making the same mistakes he did, and I completely agree, college is a privilege many of us enjoy in the richer part of the world, if you have a chance to go take it, it can only widen your horizons, if you remain aware of the need to maintain a sense of self perspective, of the need to control ones ego, of what you don't want to be, then you can avoid the trap of excessive self congratulation that your father seems to suffer from. Just consider, had you been born a hundred years ago or in a less privileged country you would not have the opportunity of choice, plus, prospective employers don't often take the time to get to know you, it can be difficult to get a across innate intelligence on a resume.

Basically, what I'm saying is, Yes, you are at a juncture in life, but not a critical one, there will be many more in the future, and life still has the opportunity to peel off into untold directions. Just keep learning, keep making decisions, and try to find something to dedicate your life to.

Don't resent your parents too much either, you might regret any huge rifts as life comes along to change you

Here's a real world application aspect of having a degree vs. not having a degree.

As a hiring manager in a Fortune 500 company, I cull resume's looking for qualifications. I have no way of knowing one's intelligence from an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper. All I can guess-timate on is the associations, certifications, and degrees that one claims to possess. Those without the required 'accoutrements' are filed to the bottom of the pile.

Now, I truly believe that the paper will not define the person. I can flush out the fakes from the phonies when I sit down with them face to face. ½ of my team had to rely on the ?SOP? of resume vs. HR requirements. I would get 30-50 papers a day for 2-3 weeks from HR, and I had to review those for candidates I deemed ?worthy? based on paper alone. Then from there I had to conduct phone interviews to further separate the wheat from the chafe. For the other ½ my staff below, they are not degreed?(many are 10 year+ college bums). They are brilliantly smart, some even smarter then I?er, then me?um?myself?.(never mind). For them, it was a personal recommendation to me directly from a mentor or colleague that got them to sit in front of me.

I honed those people measuring skills by working in America?s bars, as a bartender. There are a lot of stories you hear when you apply liquid truth serum. Some of the most brilliant entrepreneurs were also sitting there telling me their stories. I served politicians, police and professors. I filled the glasses of white collar men, and blue collar women. I listened, and I watched. I also poured several hundred of gallons of alcohol to thousands of people over the course of my career. I learned that with 300 million people looking for 50 millions jobs, you need to do something to set yourself apart.

Today that archaic system is the ?college degree?. But tellingly, that too is watered down. For example: software filters currently cull resumes to the top of the electronic files. I have seen people alter the font color of an online resume to match the ?paper? and load it up with ?keywords? so that the ?electronic? eyes think it?s a better match. Again, the key to anything is getting in the door.

To me, networking is more powerful then a degree. Putting a person with smarts next to a person with opportunity. But in the entitlement age of America?(and maybe elsewhere)?it?s all in how you get noticed. If you play the game traditionally?.that requires a degree. Unfortunately.

goodeknight said:

It had to do with each person's spirit. Your grandparents probably would have been just as happy and just as loved by others if they had PhDs and taught college. Your parents would probably be miserable no matter what they were doing.

So don't go blue collar just because you saw your grandparents happy. The job isn't the key. Look at other aspects of their lives.

All that to say those are bigger reasons your grandparents were happy and your parents aren't. There are plenty of happy people who have advanced degrees, good jobs, and lots of money. And there are plenty of miserable people working blue collar jobs. Money can't buy you happiness, but poverty can buy plenty of misery.

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^^^^^This is good advice. There are many aspects to a person's life which determine whether they are "happy" or not.

However, you will spend the majority of your adult waking hours at work, so it pays to find a profession that makes you happy, whether that be a lineman for the electric company or an electrical engineer. Then decide whether to continue college based on the requirements of that profession.

That being said, most jobs today do require a degree. Even customer service representatives for Verizon have to have a college degree. So I would strongly recommend finishing your degree if you have not made up your mind on what you want to do.

One other thing to consider: I'm not sure what your financial situation is. Perhaps your parents, being nurses, are able to pay your college expenses. However, if you are like most undergrads in this country, you are taking out loans to help foot the bill. If this is the case, I would advise you to not 'take a break', as student loans are getting harder to obtain each year. Interest rates are going up, and many lenders are requiring that the borrower pay interest while in school. With more and more borrowers defaulting each year, I feel that the student loan bubble will be the next one to burst, and in a short time it may be much harder if not impossible to get the money you need to finance your education. Also, tuition will be much higher when you come back if you do decide to take a break (it goes up every year), so you are better off getting through college as quickly as possible.

Do what you're happy doing and don't let anybody tell you different.

That said...listen to advice..(an education in itself)...I agree your parents probably want what's best for you...or what they think is best. I know I don't want my kids making my mistakes or following in my footsteps.

I had to let college go...personal reasons...needed to get a job etc etc...thing is..how different could my life have been if I had the chance again?

I have an OK job, but does it truly fulfil me or make me a better person? No, it pays the morgage.

My pre university education got me a promotion in the job I am in now...without it, it would have took longer. I wouln't regret no longer being a bottom rung man in any job.

Somtimes education is a gateway to greater things and opportunities that would not be offered unless you have the piece of paper you wore a funny hat to collect. You might not have learned as much as you liked in class but it's the other experiences of academia you may benefit from.

College and education can give you time and perspective that jumping straight into a blue collar job for the next 40 years won't.

I admire those who get paid to do something they love....education is often a good route to finding that passion and excelling in it.

Better to take an opportunity now than regret it too late. You can still sweep the streets with a college degree to your name if you really like.

Education will give you more options long term too...should you decide on a career change...an education may be of benefit if one day you decide your back hurts too much to keep street sweeping...or the wife has triplets.

Like Goodeknight said...like it or not your parents have taught you a lot...in one way or another...it's up to you if you fit the mould or break it.

You already have experience that makes you who you are now so it's prudent you choose what you are to experience in the future so that you become the man you want to be.

When you eventually realize that you've outgrown the formal education model, there is little more to be gained from sticking with it. If you still haven't realized this, you need more schooling.

I read the first post of this thread, then kind of skipped through the rest.

Apologies if my post reflects any ignorance of the rest of this thread.

I feel very passionately about the initial post of this thread that Raiders 112390 posted.

In my opinion: colleges degrees don't mean ****!!

I never got mine. And yet I earn twice as much as most college graduates.

I'm not bragging, I'm simply stating facts.

I DID go to college, and even accumulated about 50 college credits, but most of what I have learned in life has been either through reading books, or through life experiences, or through a combination of the two.

There is no substitute for experience. Nor is there a substitute for reading books and self education.

I was technically educated through the US Military. A FAR better education system than any college or university. My tuition was FREE, and they paid me while I went to school.

Anyone listening???

Right. Anyway.

I think that the knowledge level and intellectual prowess of today's College graduates is scandalously low. Many of todays' College graduates can't even find Greenland on a world map.....never mind China........

The standards of Colleges and Universities in America has declined precipitously over the last years, decades...........

There's a reason for this.....or reasons.

To discuss these reasons is politically incorrect. And so I shall not discuss them here.

Censorship.

So Raiders112390, what's your take on all the advice? Haven't heard from you since your original post.

monkey said:

I think that the knowledge level and intellectual prowess of today's College graduates is scandalously low. Many of todays' College graduates can't even find Greenland on a world map.....

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I spent about an hour looking for this, but my map was printed mostly in blue (for bodies of water); and yellow, red, and purple for land. I didn't see any green, but I could have missed it. That's not to say I couldn't find it if it were there, my map just didn't happen to have any green color in it.

I know what you mean...I mean, when I was in elementary school we learned about countries, in a class called geography or sumtin....buts now, I can't finds my favorite vacations pot anywhere: Can some one help me find Czechoslovakia. Is it a united State now?