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Old 05-18-2008, 11:01 AM   #76
tnswman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herr gruber
Haven't read this thread. Don't want to read this thread. All I know is that if Indy gets married I shall lose a 1000 bet. I'm keeping optimistic about my potential windfall.


Uhhh, You should already realize that you loose......It ends just as it should end.
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:13 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Avilos
DrBeezer your "logic" is very flawed.

You assume that Lucas does not have people who work for him who disagree with him only because you don't like the end result. Through out the Prequels he took advice from his director friends like Coppola and Spielberg, etc. Giving suggestions on Editing, Spielberg even directed sequences in Revenge of the Sith.

You are certainly allowed to be disappointed in a product you paid for. But don't assume you represent everyone. Lucas's films have a HUGE audience. So lets assume that 50% of people hate his new movies....That still means that a s#1T load of people still like what he is doing. Thats the tricky thing of creating something that explodes instantly with popularity. Being that popular means that you somehow attracted a diverse group of people. That is what Lucas did with the first Star Wars film. But simple math dictates that you are going to lose some of the audience when you continue. Because the audience
was so varied in the frst place.


Good Stuff!

What a LOT of the Haters fail to realize is that SW pretty much stayed true to it's core self...However, The fan's are what changed...People grew up and simply expected Lucas to turn them into kids again...Well, the problem is that Lucas was not making the movie for those 30+ year olds...He was making it for the same target age as the 1st films. THAT IS NOT LUCAS'S FAULT!

What is good about Indy is that the age range is VERY WIDE....you have 6-60+ year olds who LOVE the movies. So, When Steven, Harrison and Co. make a movie FOR THE FANS...They can pretty much stick to the same formula and it will hit all the age groups JUST AS THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY DID!!

Comparing SW to Indy is foolish..However, Lucas should NOT be blamed for making HIS movies the way he WANTS to make them. It is HIS right!

I don't see how ANYONE can dispute that.
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by DrBeezer
Because Lucas, like many creatives, needs someone to focus and cultivate his great imagination. Before he was a giant, people weren't afraid to tell him "no George, that idea isn't working", people like his wife and Gary Kurtz. Because of that temperament and fine tuning, we were given some of the greatest stories of all time... but now he's a juggernaut and no one will say no to him, no one will tell him something can be done better. He fired a guy from ILM because he spoke up while working on TPM. He doesn't have anyone left to fine tune his ideas and his imagination, to sculpt it and raise it to the next level. All his has now are yes men who tell him he is great and magical and collect their fat paychecks. Personally, I blame Rick McCullam for George's creative state. If ever there was a "blow sunshine up your ass" kind of guy... it's him.

Wow, you are incredibly misinformed. Gary Kurtz is not some sort of creative genius who co-created Star Wars or directed Lucas about how Star Wars should be done. He was a producer plain and simple, just like Rick McCallum who you are so quick to disparage. He was not some friend that Lucas kicked to the curb out of jealousy or envy. He was a producer who got fired because he failed at his job, namely to bring Empire on time and on budget... that's it.

Kurtz was a hired gun brought on board for American Graffiti by Francis Copolla who recommended him. Kurtz had pretty much zero input on Star Wars, all of the Lucas biographies (official or unofficial) as well as the "making of" books bear that out.

You really should read "The Making of Star Wars" it's pretty eye opening. At one point Lucas and director of photography Gilbert Taylor are discussing how they are going to shoot the landspeeder shots. Lucas and Taylor are talking about practical, realistic ways they could do it. Taylor recommends essentially putting the speeder on train tracks and shooting it from a slightly elevated angle. Now mind you, at this point the production is already behind schedule and over budget. So here comes Kurtz with his "brilliant" idea... helicopter shots. Wow talk about wasting money.

Next comes some meetings at ILM toward the end of production. Kurtz comes in and has ZERO to say. He's there for one reason... to play the heavy and to push ILM to get their job done.

On to Empire... I will say this for Kurtz he does defend Kershner and his spending like a drunken sailor to Lucas, but that probably has more to do with defending his own inability to get Kershner in line. Hell just watch any interview with Kersh, the supposed evil overlord Lucas gave him cart blanch to make Empire the way he wanted. It was Kurtz who failed in his job to keep the production on budget... and guess what, he got fired over it.

Really, go look at Kurtz track record after Empire. If he was this major creative genius living in the shadow of Lucas why does he rarely work? And why are his films such miserable failures (e.g., Slipstream... even though it's a guilty pleasure movie of mine) Sorry Lucas bashers, but that's the reality of the Lucas-Kurtz relation.

As for McCallum, you may not like him, but he does his job. He gets everything needed for Lucas to put his vision on the screen, and he gets it done on time and on budget (which is the job of the producer).


Yancy

Last edited by gallandro : 05-18-2008 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:30 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by gallandro
Wow, you are incredibly misinformed. Gary Kurtz is not some sort of creative genius who co-created Star Wars or directed Lucas about how Star Wars should be done. He was a producer plain and simple, just like Rick McCallum who you are so quick to disparage. He was not some friend that Lucas kicked to the curb out of jealousy or envy. He was a producer who got fired because he failed at his job, namely to bring Empire on time and on budget... that's it.

Kurtz was a hired gun brought on board for American Graffiti by Francis Copolla who recommended him. Kurtz had pretty much zero input on Star Wars, all of the Lucas biographies (official or unofficial) as well as the "making of" books bear that out.

You really should read "The Making of Star Wars" it's pretty eye opening. At one point Lucas and director of photography Gilbert Taylor are discussing how they are going to shoot the landspeeder shots. Lucas and Taylor are talking about practical, realistic ways they could do it. Taylor recommends essentially putting the speeder on train tracks and shooting it from a slightly elevated angle. Now mind you, at this point the production is already behind schedule and over budget. So here comes Kurtz with his "brilliant" idea... helicopter shots. Wow talk about wasting money.

Next comes some meetings at ILM toward the end of production. Kurtz comes in and has ZERO to say. He's there for one reason... to play the heavy and to push ILM to get their job done.

On to Empire... I will say this for Kurtz he does defend Kershner and his spending like a drunken sailor to Lucas, but that probably has more to do with defending his own inability to get Kershner in line. Hell just watch any interview with Kersh, the supposed evil overlord Lucas gave him cart blanch to make Empire the way he wanted. It was Kurtz who failed in his job to keep the production on budget... and guess what, he got fired over it.

Really, go look at Kurtz track record after Empire. If he was this major creative genius living in the shadow of Lucas why does he rarely work? And why are his films such miserable failures (e.g., Slipstream... even though it's a guilty pleasure movie of mine) Sorry Lucas bashers, but that's the reality of the Lucas-Kurtz relation.

As for McCallum, you may not like him, but he does his job. He gets everything needed for Lucas to put his vision on the screen, and he gets it done on time and on budget (which is the job of the producer).


Yancy


McCallum's job is to Follow Lucas's wishes and make them reality..He KNOWS his place is to NOT try to change George's mind and in doing HIS JOB, he is not a "yes man"..He just knows his role.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:05 PM   #80
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Ah yes, SW Prequel fans. Oh how you all make me laugh. muahahahaha Episode I - SUCKED Episode II - SUCKED Episode III - SUCKED LESS The acting was horrible. Way too much CGI. And characters were flat. Simple as that. Might have been different if Lucas didn't direct all three, but he did. So we now have the black sheep of the Star Wars Family. But comparing the SW Prequels to Indiana Jones IV is pointless. 2 different beasts. It's like I've been saying. Go into the theater May 22nd not to see the second coming, but to see old friends again.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:20 PM   #81
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The prequels are great movies (in relative terms of course) and no sad 'Cloverfield' 'Ironman' or AICN waster will ever make me (or millions of others) think otherwise. But anyway this is about Indiana Jones so lets crack on...
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:41 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cyrano
Keep in mind that most movies are made by committee today and it shows. Every exec is looking to make big bucks and discards story and vision in favor of what opinion polls reflect. Movie are recycled, sequels are greenlit, original stories are few and far between.

Lucas and Spielberg are two of the few people who have full autonomy to do what they wish and that's what they do. If they listened to the divergent opinions of this forum alone nothing would get made and if it did half of you would still be upset.

The world wanted another IJ movie as did 95% of those on this board but it didn't get made till Ford, Spielberg, and Lucas came up with a story they were all willing to tell. They didn't do it for the money, they did to tell a story and to please the fans. Not all fans will be pleased but they will all go to see it. If they don't see it they shouldn't complain or criticize. It's like *****ing out your elected officials when you chose not to vote.

At any rate, the movie will be better than most of the want-to-bees and knock-offs that try to emulate IJ but never come close.

That brand of wisdom after only 5 posts? Well spoken, sir.
The truth of the matter is that I'm sorry if we've got a bunch of Lucas-haters on here, but please, let's try to be optimistic. Some of us (AHEM!) are worrying about this a LITTLE TOO MUCH, and everyone just needs to stop and take a deep breath and repeat after me: IT'S...JUST...A...MOVIE...
(once more, everyone...)

And although I'm as pumped as many of you and "Heck no, it's not just a movie; it's my life!" let's try to please be reasonable. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and Lucas is too: that's how Lucas movies are the way the way they are. If you don't enjoy something in one of his films I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. I'm sure I'M not going to like some of the things in KotCS, but I also know that I'm going to genuinely love a lot of it. I'm not staying up til 3 AM the morning of May 22 just to go see a summer blockbuster, I'm going to see my old friends have another high-flying adventure. What Lucas did or didn't do isn't going to affect me, but what Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood do will--a lot. Sure, maybe it won't be up to par with Raiders... or Temple (for all you Doomers out there)... or Crusade. But it doesn't have to be. We're going to watch Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, not a Raiders remake. And, despite everyone's differing opinions on here, we all have one big thing in common:

WE LOVE INDIANA JONES!

And no matter what happens Wednesday night, we're still getting another two hours with the best adventurer in the world. At least from where I'm standing, that's nothing to complain about.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:52 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indyfan105
personity I think the only movie that was ever a really decent rip off from indiana jones was romancing the stone.

Jacob
Mummy 1 & National Treasure 1 were also good, I haven't seen NT 2 yet.


None of this surprises me, except Spalko's death. WTH, skeletons?
When does Mutt find out?
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Old 05-18-2008, 11:26 PM   #84
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I not sure if I am remembering correctly but I think on the "Romancing the Stone" DVD it said that its script was written before "Raiders" even came out. Its writer and George Lucas were simply independently inspired by similar influences. Thats why its so good. Its another tribute to old adventure stories. But focusing on Romance Adventures, not serials and Pulps. Not just a rip-off of Indiana Jones. Of course being directed by Robert Zemeckis puts it above any of the pretenders.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:04 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by tnswman
If you hink that Lucas made the SW films for the 30+ crowds, your are FULL of it!! SW is and ALWAYS has been a kid to teen movie! It is NOT lucas's fault that grown men make it the center of their lives and expect him to make the universe tilt how they desire it to....HE HAD TO STAY TRUE TO HIS STORY!! Nobody else matters!! He would have made all 3 SW movies regardless of how Menace did...Thankfully, Menace was a HUGE success. It's not his fault that you GREW up in way's you did not even realize and could not feel the same amazement at the movies as you once did. However, There were MILLIONS of kids who DID get that amazement...They are the SW consumers now..People are age are just Geeks with nothing better to do.

LOL. too funny. First off, if you read my post, I never said I was a Lucas hater, I said he had fantastic ideas and still does, but he also had bad ones, like everyone does. Second, I didn't dispute that he's not allowed to make HIS vision... but I'm allowed to not like it. You're allowed to love it. But he shouldn't be upset if the people who made him millions are disappointed in his work when they KNOW he's capable of better. And the Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back were not made for "kids", how anyone could watch them and think that is beyond me, charred remains of beloved relatives and bloody dismemberment these are always firsts in children's entertainment, I think I saw that on Seseme Street. They were made for EVERYBODY, young and old alike, and they were embraced by everybody young and old alike... the "6-60" crowd that was mentioned, yeah they all loved Star Wars just like they all loved Indy because they loved great films. Take my dad for instance, he was 30 when he saw Star Wars and he was blown away, he loved it... he's not Star Wars nut, didn't buy memorabilia, toys, shirts, isn't versed in the cannon of the universe or any of that... just really loved the movies for what they were and fast forward 20 years to the prequels, he just wasn't all that impressed he thought they were neat and had some fun moments in them but was overly underwhelmed and this is a guy who still gets pumped up like a kid when he goes to the movies.

It wasn't until Jedi that he started gearing the films towards 6 year olds with the ewoks (and then later took it to the next level with poop and fart jokes) but having "child-like amazement" over a movie and having a movie be bad are two different things, and the prequels are not good "films". They have a lot of good ideas and underneath it all, there's a pretty good story in there, but overall, they're not presented well at all. My biggest gripes are with George Lucas saying things like "I always planned on him being 8" when he's documented as saying otherwise early on in his life. Or saying "the problem with sci-fi movies is they spend too much time showing off the effects when they should be focusing on the story" and then 30 years later saying "that shot was in there just to show off the armor". He hasn't adhered to his own principles. Watch his old interviews and then his new ones, there's so many inconsistencies it's not even funny. And then he just says that he didn't say that, or he tries to make the public forget he did.

I still have the highest hopes for Indy IV and I hope upon hope it's a great film, because I really want it to be. I'm still a Indy fan, I'm still a Star Wars fan, I'm still a Spielberg fan, hell I'm still, despite it all, a Lucas fan... but to have these delusions that Lucas is some sort of god and is infallible... come off it. If he was so perfect, his initial idea of little green men running around after Indy would be on the screen. But Ford and Spielberg told him hell no. So clearly not all of his ideas are genius.

I mean he even said:
"It wasn't quite as wacky as I wanted it to be, but it still is subtle and nice and works really well and has the same idea behind it.''

(and I still think Ford and Spielberg would have rather not done anything with aliens, but Lucas would not relent so they gave over, but none of that can be proven so it's merely speculation on my part)

So here's hoping I'm proven wrong and Indy IV is spectacular!

Last edited by DrBeezer : 05-19-2008 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 05-19-2008, 01:22 AM   #86
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I have pre-order from Internet this comic, it has not been yet... wait for June I want to become now!
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:12 AM   #87
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DrBeezer,

I have to DISAGREE with the majority of your last post. I obviously won't go into the detail here on an Indy site, but I've never seen/heard one rational argument as to what makes the OT better than the PT (apart from the fact that the OT was obviously ground breaking).

I have high hopes for KOTCS BECAUSE of George Lucas/Spielberg, not despite George Lucas/Spielberg. Sure, no one can re-produce gold time and time again... but IMHO, I think these two have probably the best track record to date (within context of blockbuster/mainstream cinema).
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:22 AM   #88
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Do the crystal skull skeletons really stand up in the film? That would look really cool.
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:35 PM   #89
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I'm glad ROTS wasn't geared towards to kids, that's what made it better.
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:38 PM   #90
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Do the crystal skull skeletons really stand up in the film? That would look really cool.

Yes they do, I think they were recast from Pirates of the Caribbean.
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:54 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Agent Spalko
Yes they do, I think they were recast from Pirates of the Caribbean.
Hehe.

I kind of think it would be cool if they did the crystal skeleton guys with models instead of pure CGI. After all, they did the ark spirits without CGI, surely they can do it right these days.
(Note: This is void if the alien skeletons look like Donovan's skeleton. I've always thought that it looks bloody awful! Toht's was good, though.)
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Old 05-19-2008, 08:56 PM   #92
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I agree. Nothing is creepier than Ray Harryhausen's stop-motion skeletons from Jason and the Argonauts.
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:08 PM   #93
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I agree. Nothing is creepier than Ray Harryhausen's stop-motion skeletons from Jason and the Argonauts.
YES! Oh my God! I loved that scene! Sure, it took them forever; but it was totally worth it. Classic!
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:44 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by indyfan105
since this is a spoiler section of the forum.. I want to say something about this thread. be warned.. spoilers..

I saw the end of the comic book for indy 4.. it certainly make sense to me.. one of the rules in scriptwriting is that the hero is wanting something. we see that indy lost both his father and his friend brody. he is probably wishing that he has a family. he gets one at the end of the movie. for me.. that works. besides him and marion were made for each other anyways.. you also got that. I have no problem that mutt is his son. its probably better that way.

Jacob

Have to agree.
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:14 AM   #95
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Actually you'll be surprised to find that the ending for Spalko in the comic isn't the exact same.... neither is the ball thing....
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:17 AM   #96
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Good! I didn't like the idea of Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, flying away from the Akator temple! Hoping for a spacecraft, myself.

Do the skeletons actually stand? Do they project any light from thier eye sockets?
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:24 AM   #97
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It's kinda hard to describe exactly how the scene went. It's very different from the comic book though, that's for sure.

The skeletons do stand, but only once Indy and the rest left the room and well ehm. I don't really remember them standing up, they just were there, melted together to form 1 alien with skin and all. And then Cate kinda went up in fire and disappeared.

I really liked the scene. The alien skeletons looked great, the skin version a bit less. Still, Cate going up is about as Indiana as it could get.

Edit:

The drawings are pretty terrible. Comic book adaptations never really make up, but this doesn't even remotely capture the scene.
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:35 AM   #98
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Oh thanks!!

Does the live alien look like the mummified one in the crate? Love that image!
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:52 AM   #99
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well that's disappointing. I think I could have accepted the sphere, something a bit mystical... not entirely explained but hinted at... but an actually flying saucer... lame.
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:59 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by DrBeezer
well that's disappointing. I think I could have accepted the sphere, something a bit mystical... not entirely explained but hinted at... but an actually flying saucer... lame.

hmm..."lame" has become the new pessimistic fanboy cliche. you know what i find lame? pessimistic fanboys.
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