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Old 04-10-2018, 11:39 AM   #176
emtiem
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Originally Posted by Dr.Jonesy
The tie irked me. Just looked bad.

I like the tie. And it's funny: he's meeting his dad (who he still calls 'sir') so he wears a tie



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A re-watch of the later two films won't change your perception much. Definitely feels like a composed costume. I still say all three sequels feel that way, not just the later two.

It feels less like a deliberate, less lived-in costumed during the graveyard and catacomb section in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, though.

To be fair, at that point in Skull it probably is less-lived in. He'd been involved in an atomic incident in the opening of the film: his original clothes would've been cremated. He's on his third fedora of the movie by then
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Old 04-10-2018, 11:51 AM   #177
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I do get why Crusade could be seen the lesser of the first trilogy though: it doesn't feel as tightly crafted as the first two. There's a sweep to those which is missing here: LC feels scrappy and more an assemblage of lots of different scenes, occasionally feeling like it's put together with a little less care. A Venetian boat chase... through London Docklands? And a hastily stuck-in motorbike chase? It's good, but it feels a lot more ragged than the first two. I'd say Skull actually probably feels a bit more cohesive.
Add to that a score where it feels like John Williams just wasn't quite in the mood. It's still brilliant, obviously, but he's more interested in the classical twiddlings of the Scherzo for Motorcycle than he is the pure epic exuberance that makes Temple of Doom come alive. There's nothing quite as crazily energetic and exciting as the musical opening of Temple, with the plane flying into the sunset, the map and the liferaft escape.

I think Crusade is brilliant and utterly enjoyable in every way and better than pretty much any other adventure film, but next to the other two Indys it is lacking ever so slightly.

The worst crime it commits though is that because it's a retread of Raiders, stories starring Indiana Jones from that onwards seem to only be retreads of Raiders. There's nothing about Indy which says he has to be involved in races against time to beat an army in their attempt to capture an all-powerful artefact, which in the end will destroy the baddie. Temple doesn't follow that template at all: there are plenty more stories in Indy but for some reason Crusade thought there was only one.

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Old 04-10-2018, 12:23 PM   #178
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I always enjoyed the globe-trotting run of Raiders and Crusade, Temple was so confined.
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:32 PM   #179
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The confined, claustrophobic and oppressive feeling of TOD IMO was part of it's strengths and worked since it was a different type of adventure from Raiders. Funny thing is even though TOD has less locations they feel much more vibrant and "alive" for lack of a better description due to the designs and lightings. Something about most of the locations in TLC by comparisons feel bland despite the larger scope.
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Old 04-11-2018, 10:04 AM   #180
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I don't think Last Crusade is bland-looking, but I agree that Temple of Doom did an excellent job of leveraging the small but crucial location work they did in Sri Lanka, so that even with a storyline that was narrower in scope, you still got that sense of being in another place. Compare that to Crystal Skull, which is on paper a more sprawling story yet never feels like it because there's no South America location work to seal the illusion.

Last Crusade's biggest issue is its over-familiarity, but it's still a top-notch adventure movie. And if it reprises too many elements from Raiders, at least there was the rationale that they thought they were making a finale, and wanted to bring the retroactive trilogy full circle. I think it makes up for its weaknesses in story with the Ford/Connery dynamic and a fully engaged Spielberg. I rank it the least of the trilogy, but not by any significant degree. Anyone who thinks Last Crusade is what an Indy movie looks like on autopilot clearly has not seen Crystal Skull.
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Old 04-11-2018, 12:43 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
Anyone who thinks Last Crusade is what an Indy movie looks like on autopilot clearly has not seen Crystal Skull.
They way things are shaping up with Indy 5, I fear the worst is yet to come...
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Old 04-12-2018, 03:54 PM   #182
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They way things are shaping up with Indy 5, I fear the worst is yet to come...

I think no matter how that film comes out you'll be disappointed simply because Harrison is involved tbh.
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Old 04-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #183
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I think no matter how that film comes out you'll be disappointed simply because Harrison is involved tbh.
If they introduce a new actor in flashback scenes, laying the foundations for future "canon" sequels, it may be interesting.

But with Ford over ten years older than in KOTCS, Koepp again writing the script and Spielberg well past his best years, realistically it looks like a perfect storm in the making.

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Old 04-13-2018, 02:00 AM   #184
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Nobody was disappointed from Ford in Skull. If Spielberg and Koepp manage to find a way to treat the character properly, Ford is the only one to pull it off. Both Spielberg and Koepp have to try hard to come clear after Skull, Ford just has to be himself, once again.
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Old 04-13-2018, 06:59 AM   #185
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I think no matter how that film comes out you'll be disappointed simply because Harrison is involved tbh.

I'd be disappointed that any writer/director thinks they can make a quality serial pulp action film with anyone over 65. It defies the laws of physics and is an insult to the natural world.

Sure, CGI and stunt doubles can help, but it makes it harder for the suspension of disbelief so necessary in storytelling.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:34 PM   #186
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I'd be disappointed that any writer/director thinks they can make a quality serial pulp action film with anyone over 65. It defies the laws of physics and is an insult to the natural world.

Sure, CGI and stunt doubles can help, but it makes it harder for the suspension of disbelief so necessary in storytelling.
Well put.

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Old 04-13-2018, 02:35 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
I'd be disappointed that any writer/director thinks they can make a quality serial pulp action film with anyone over 65. It defies the laws of physics and is an insult to the natural world.

Sure, CGI and stunt doubles can help, but it makes it harder for the suspension of disbelief so necessary in storytelling.

Not really. You don't seem to have known many people over age 65. "It is an insult to the natural world." A little melodramatic, no?

John Wayne was 69 years old and suffering from cancer when he did the Shootist. Even with 1970s technology it worked fine.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:39 PM   #188
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People were making fun of Ford's age for a decade and Skull arrived in theaters nobody said anything about him. 3 years ago draw people back with Star Wars, same thing. I still have faith in him.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM   #189
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Iím fascinated to see it, but more because I have no idea how theyíll make it work at this point. They canít exactly ruin Indy because we have thre great films that can never be taken away; so why not?
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:12 PM   #190
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Iím fascinated to see it, but more because I have no idea how theyíll make it work at this point. They canít exactly ruin Indy because we have thre great films that can never be taken away; so why not?

Exactly.

Lemme tell you something. My grandpa is 89 years old. The man has a keener mind than most of his children - not senile - and still carries bundles of logs in, alone, for his fireplace every day. In the summertime, he mows the grass with a regular handheld rower. Without help. When he was 70, he was up on a ladder 20 feet in the air pruning trees for my family's house.

I'll put it this way, without hyperbole: He's probably in better shape than his son who is going to be 64. My grandpa always remembers birthdays and special occasions. My dad has trouble remembering his own anniversary date.

My father retired at 49. My grandfather at 67.

My grandmother - not his wife, other side - will be 91 this year. She only retired in her mid 80s. My mother retired at 41. My grandmother's last job was homecare of the elderly. Even at 91 she makes it a point to walk at least two miles per day. She no longer cooks (she hasn't since her 50s - personal choice) but still buys all her own groceries. Another keen mind, sharp as a tack - you can't pull BS on her.

So perhaps having seen the elderly in more active roles in life, I have a certain respect for them, and a certain insight into their abilities, that others here do not share. I do not consider a person over the age of 65 being outside of a nursing home to be a "violation of natural law" for example.

There are ways of making an older Indy film still have action. You can have SMART action, have Indy cheat more during a fight, use his gun more often. There's ways of making it work and not having it be cringey. Don't show him as a superman. Don't show him doing literally impossible things like dragging himself behind a truck or surviving a nuclear blast. Do, you know, sensible stuff that is still exciting. It's not rocket science.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:44 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Not really. You don't seem to have known many people over age 65. "It is an insult to the natural world." A little melodramatic, no?

John Wayne was 69 years old and suffering from cancer when he did the Shootist. Even with 1970s technology it worked fine.

A) The Shootist isn't an action serial pulp.
B) Clint Eastwood was fabulous in Gran Torino
C) Tommy Lee Jones was phenomenal in No Country for Old Men

Know your audience, and your medium.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:53 AM   #192
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A) The Shootist isn't an action serial pulp.
B) Clint Eastwood was fabulous in Gran Torino
C) Tommy Lee Jones was phenomenal in No Country for Old Men

Know your audience, and your medium.

What level of action does an "action serial pulp" need consist of that Indy (let's say Indy, the character, at age 66, as opposed to Ford's real life age) can't do?

In an age where you have John McClane as Die Hard still and you have 60+ action heroes in the Expendables, and you'll have Linda Hamilton in her 60s reprising the role of Sarah Conor, an older action hero isn't honestly anything extraordinary. Sean Connery was 66 when he did The Rock. It may not have been "pulp serial" but it was an action film, and action is action whether its in a pulp serial context or not.

And frankly, the films haven't been pulp serial since Last Crusade, anyway. Last Crusade threw out a lot of the pulp elements to focus on character development and fleshing out Indy as a character rather than as simply a pulpy avatar. Even Raiders was more of an adventure film than a cheesy pulp serial. The closest film to those serials is Temple of Doom. So, we're a long way from pulp adventure serial. While Indy is definitely INSPIRED HEAVILY BY those films, and shares certain elements, Indy has a bit more in common with the adventure film, the epic adventure film (like Ray Harryhausen but better scripting and effects) and the western than pure cheesy pulp.

As long as you do it the right way, it can work. There is literally no reason on Earth it can't if you do it right. No jokes about age. Treat the subject with dignity if it must be addressed, but don't address it too much. Smart, exciting action. More gunplay. More whiplay. Use Indy's age in combat as an advantage - wisdom as opposed to brute strength.

All that matters, in the end, is a good story, a good execution and a compelling enough of a MacGuffin to base the story around, as well as the right mood and feel. Harrison's age, and Indy's age with it, is window dressing. The time period its set in, so long as we keep it to a point say prior to the Moon Landing, and we keep it away from American counterculture, is also window dressing.

Look at the forest beyond the trees. If done right, this could potentially be an awesome film.
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:29 AM   #193
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Very well said. So, let's hope they'll do it right!
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:46 AM   #194
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If done right, this could potentially be an awesome film.
Maybe, but with Spielberg/Koepp/Kaminski at the wheel, I highly doubt it.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:05 AM   #195
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Maybe, but with Spielberg/Koepp/Kaminski at the wheel, I highly doubt it.

How much of KOTCS being mediocre was Lucas pushing a film on Spielberg that he had no interest in making, though? As far as Koepp and Kaminski - With Koepp, it seems he was brought in at the last minute and basically told to cobble together a compromise script from several different ones, which is what he did basically. Kaminski was the least of all problems. I don't care what the film looks like so long as it is a good film. Different photography and lighting wouldn't have made KOTCS any better, really.

With Spielberg having virtually no interest in doing KOTCS, sighing and saying "fine, fine we'll do aliens but can we at least call them something different?" it's a different ballgame from now. Now, Spielberg can make the kind of Indy film he wants to make, and honestly, Spielberg seems to have a better idea about what Indy is about versus what he's not about. I mean Steven was the one putting the brakes on an Indy alien movie for a decade, and of the scripts we have available, the one Indy IV script people generally agree would've made a good film (City of Gods) is the one Spielberg himself loved.

My main concerns lie with Kathleen Kennedy and the Mouse, not Spielberg. Without Lucas' iron grip and feeling obligated or forced into doing an Indy film I don't think we'll see Spielberg on autopilot again. Without having to cram certain elements from various scripts and cobble it all together and make it work, we'll likely see a better script from Koepp too.
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:35 AM   #196
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I'm impressed with your unbridled optimism these days*, i just don't share it.
I am not convinced that Spielberg still has that much fire left in him, at least not for an Indy movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
we'll likely see a better script from Koepp too.
Well, it'd be hard for him to write a worse one...





*It's good to see that you managed to exorcise that silly Pratt demon that seemed to possess you for months.
Guess the news that Ford will star in Indy 5 really made you happy, and that's fair enough.
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:58 PM   #197
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I'm impressed with your unbridled optimism these days*, i just don't share it.
I am not convinced that Spielberg still has that much fire left in him, at least not for an Indy movie.


Well, it'd be hard for him to write a worse one...


*It's good to see that you managed to exorcise that silly Pratt demon that seemed to possess you for months.
Guess the news that Ford will star in Indy 5 really made you happy, and that's fair enough.

If we're being honest though, the one Indy film that really calls for an energetic young director is TOD. Raiders has plenty of action but there is a skillfullness and finesse to those action scenes that really doesn't require youth and vigor. The action scenes in Raiders are almost musical in a sense; at least, what I am trying to say is they flow with John Williams' music perfectly. LC's action scenes for me, outside of the 1912 prologue, are very by the books and boring. TOD is the only one of them that really meets the modern definition of a rollercoaster sort of action film in terms of pacing and pure kinetic energy.

I am not like, optimistic over the moon about it; I don't have unbridled enthusiasm. Any project that Kathleen Kennedy has any creative control over gives me pause. There is plenty of peril to be found with the Mouse in pushing certain agendas and also in turning Indy V into a soulless, safe nostalgia flick. One could argue that that is what the franchise needs after KOTCS, but I'm not so sure. I also don't want to see an ultra PC non-violent Indy. I also worry that Spielberg will be kept on a short leash by the mouse and forced to make a very 'modern' Marvel-esque film, that won't FEEL like an Indy film. KOTCS for all its flaws had a similar, if lazy, directorial style. A worry is that we'll get something with tons of gags and modern editing and things like that that feels like a different beast. Those concerns all stem from Disney, though.

One non-Disney concern for me is John Williams. I haven't heard an inspiring score from him in almost 20 years. I feel a great musical score - bombastic, over the top, almost cartoonish music - is as important to Indiana Jones as anything else. Put a lesser composer in there and the truck chase in Raiders is good, but not as great. The pure MAGIC of the 1912 prologue's music helps make that sequence quite possibly the best in the film. The Temple of Doom slave children theme is just iconic. I haven't heard that from John Williams - I haven't heard a hum-able, grandiose score from him in a very long time. That was a major failing of KOTCS, actually - an uninspired score and a film wherein the music took a backseat.

If someone hummed a certain musical piece from one of the first three Indy films, I would know immediately which scene it was from and what's going on during that scene; I can even recall musical pieces from some of the YIJC with ease too. I've seen KOTCS as much as any other Indy film and yet for the life of me I cannot recall a single musical piece, much less relate it to a scene in the film, outside of the rock n' roll music in the movie. The music was as halfbaked as anything else in the movie and I worry that this will be a problem with V as well.

Harrison to me is probably the strongest asset of this film, and I say that without bias or 'fetishism.' He seems to have found a second wind as an actor doing his old characters and seems to put a lot of effort into those old roles - more than he has with other films since 2000 or so. Age to me is just a number.

People call it fetishim but I do think Harrison is the last of a certain kind of actor, of the Humphrey Bogart sort of mold, which you really don't see today. I hated Pratt so much because Pratt for me represents a very dumbed down and goofy version of that. Like the worst apsects of Flynn and Gable thrown in a Millenial friendly blender - No Bogart.

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Old 04-15-2018, 04:04 PM   #198
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I worry for Indy 5 that it'll essentially be TLC 2.0 instead of something different and bold to end the series on a good note with. With the backlash KOTCS got that Spielberg is surely aware of, it's a cause for concern that he may simply xerox TLC for the next movie to deliver something he thinks the masses will like.

Which for me is another issue TLC has, it's very for-the-masses feel. Regardless of Spielberg's feelings on TOD, you can tell when he made it he put all his effort into it and had all hands on deck. With TLC it's very through the motions and by the numbers.
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:58 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
If we're being honest though, the one Indy film that really calls for an energetic young director is TOD. Raiders has plenty of action but there is a skillfullness and finesse to those action scenes that really doesn't require youth and vigor. The action scenes in Raiders are almost musical in a sense; at least, what I am trying to say is they flow with John Williams' music perfectly. LC's action scenes for me, outside of the 1912 prologue, are very by the books and boring. TOD is the only one of them that really meets the modern definition of a rollercoaster sort of action film in terms of pacing and pure kinetic energy.

I heard that Tarantino called Temple of Doom the best bit of directing Spielberg ever did (not the best film: the best directing). I can see what he means: it's so completely assured and confident (moreso than even Raiders I'd say), so energetic, so inventive and bristling with wit and perfect timing.

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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
I've seen KOTCS as much as any other Indy film and yet for the life of me I cannot recall a single musical piece, much less relate it to a scene in the film

Can't agree there: that's a great score. The Skull theme is as good as anything he's done for Indy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
People call it fetishim but I do think Harrison is the last of a certain kind of actor, of the Humphrey Bogart sort of mold, which you really don't see today. I hated Pratt so much because Pratt for me represents a very dumbed down and goofy version of that. Like the worst apsects of Flynn and Gable thrown in a Millenial friendly blender - No Bogart.

No, I'd agree entirely there. For my money he's the greatest movie star there's ever been. Genuinely: I can't think of better.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:22 AM   #200
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I heard that Tarantino called Temple of Doom the best bit of directing Spielberg ever did (not the best film: the best directing). I can see what he means: it's so completely assured and confident (moreso than even Raiders I'd say), so energetic, so inventive and bristling with wit and perfect timing.



Can't agree there: that's a great score. The Skull theme is as good as anything he's done for Indy.



No, I'd agree entirely there. For my money he's the greatest movie star there's ever been. Genuinely: I can't think of better.

TOD is taut, lean, assured and brutal. It doesn't waste time and gets right to the point. Raiders is a classic film but for today's audiences would be a bit slow and exposition heavy. I mean, even as someone who grew up with it, the film drags a bit from the time we leave South America until the gunfight in Marion's bar. LC feels like anyone could've directed it, really. There's nothing special about the action scenes outside of the prologue and the motorcycle chase. The whole film just feels so by the numbers and tame. It feels tired, actually. KOTCS is lazy and doesn't seem to have any confidence in itself.

I don't know about the best. I would rank him in a class with John Wayne, Clark Gable, and Humphrey Bogart. I would say he is equivalent to those guys and the last of that sort of breed of actor. All of those guys, like Ford, were kind of wooden and one-note, in that, they pretty much played the same character their entire careers for the most part but they were perfect in doing so - as these charming, confident, cynical rogue type guys.
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