The Amazing return of Abner Ravenwood

Welcome Major,

As a new guy myself, I like to see other new comers but I'm the cautious sort and I've been waiting for one of the veterans here to check out your credentials.

This might appeal to your suspicious mind. Recently, we've had visitations from a giggling 14 years old girl who was anything but. Also, I've witnessed some of the locals agitating over something called the 'adventure table' (which was over and done with before I came onboard) and your routine sort of fits the M.O. for that type of operation.

In the words of the Dude from 'The Big Lewboski', "I dig your style" but my suspicions will linger.

[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-16-2004 at 06:50 am]

apalehorse said:

I think our friend is refering to the Disneyland ride, and it's several references to Abner.

Given that it is a Lucas approved venue (or something like that) it is curious that there are several references to Abner, when he is "supposedly" supposed to be dead.

Click to expand...

Hmmmmm interesting

Maybe Lucas actually thought about this then....

~Addressing Joe~

I can assure you my credentials are in order. Nothing wrong with a little healthy suspicion. I have me reservations about many things myself. I guess if you are going to check my credential, I should probably present them.

~hands Joe his black leather billfold with the 'Army Department of Intelligence' placard in it, and realizes he hasn't even taken his black leather gloves off~

I work in an obscure division known as the SIS, at least mostly. We, I mean, the men under my watch, are particularly interested in cryptology. It is no secret that this is how we obtained the information between Cario and Berlin. It seems our secret is well known in these parts, and I am sure I know whose been leaking the information. The Col. has been AWOL for a time, and the stories I could tell you about his drinking.

~regains his usual demeanor~

Anyway, I doubt you'll find any inconsistancies with me. Now, what were we talking about again... Ah yes Abner...

O.K. Major, I'm game. What's your assessment of Abner surfacing in the early 1950's?

. . . and I always figured the Colonel for a teatoller.

~smiles at the strangers astute observation of his Musgrove.

Well my good sir, I think it is safe to assume an atmosphere of plausible deniability in such a place as this. I don't see any harm in entertaining you, or the other members at this table with information that many deem unrecognizable by ~slightly coughing~ certain top-men. But you'll have to excuse me a moment.

~gets up from the table and walks over to the fireplace where he picks up a half-empty bottle of Jack Daniels and a dirty shot glass.~

I hate lousy service. ~he comments as he wipes the opening with his handkerchief.~ Don't worry; the alcohol will kill anything on the rag. And the bottle will be used as compulsory evidence removing credibility if any of what I am about to tell you falls into the wrong hands.

Like I said before, the SIS has a division that specializes in code breaking cryptology and other, well, how else should I say it, black-arts. Part of our directive is to intercept all forms of communication and process it, for reasons I still am not comfortable regaling. Having listened to many conversations in this place, Jones' legend amoung you commoners is unprecedented. But what do you really know about him, or Prof. Ravenwood? Not as much as you think, I can assure you.

~pours another half glass of the molasses liquor into the dingy glass and chokes the thought of snow-chapped lips kissing the container hours earlier away with the liquids warmth.~

Indiana Jones as he is now known met Abner Ravenwood in June of 1909 as a boy in Jerusalem. Abner was doing research at the El Aksa Mosque which most believe had to do something with the Staff of Ra, but we have now learned that it was something much more involved.

That brief encounter influenced Henry so much, that he went back to Chicago after the war to study under the illusive Ravenwood. Here is where the story begins to get interesting. In the years between, say 1919 and 1925 give or take a few scheduled digs; the Univ. of Chicago through the Oriental Institute conducted the first serious excavation of the city of Megiddo.

~pauses to see who?s still paying attention, and to fill his glass again, this time with half the amount of liquor, knowing that everyone is waiting for some sort of mistake.~

Megiddo is Hebrew for Hill of Armageddon. It is the Biblical place of the end of the world. ~ looks over at bob~ I started going to Sunday School.

After acquiring the communiqué from Abner to Jones in India, we also found evidence that Sallah, his friend has been communication with Ravenwood as well, over the same find down in India. Now, we, my associates and I aren?t interested in India. We are, however more concerned with the fact that Israel is now a recognized as its own State. In case you are all too drunk to understand those ramifications, Armageddon wasn?t prophesized until that little remembered fact came to pass. Well here it is now, and the cold war is just heating up.

~sips his drink, and raises it in the air.~

Here?s to top-men research. Gentlemen, it is our opinion that the Ark of the Covenant is directly related to the Battle of Armageddon, and Abner Ravenwood is the only person who can give us what we need?

It seems that he is more important now than ever before.

~with that, he sets his glass down and begins to pack his pipe as he waits for someone to challenge his story.

And ~pauses for effect~ if you don?t believe me, you can research the information for yourselves. ~throws a letter down on the table. It reads the following:

"Eastern Union Telegram
WDL 95 DL=IJ GLEN 721
1936 July 10 AM 815
Lost Delta Excavation Site, India
Sallah. Learned on the news of Indy's disappearance. Study
all references to the "Gates of Doom." They seem to guard
the "Jewel of Power." Perhaps Indy made it past the lethal
force of that trap, then he would have found the immense cavern
where the jewel is stored.
Abner Ravenwood"

And for Musgrove? He drinks tea like a Bostonian.

Major,

Interesting stuff, and I think I see where you're going.

Now I just don't see Indy (with or without Abner) in or around Israel in any adventure set in the early fifties. My recollection may be wrong here but I think the U.N. ceasefire was just put into place in '51 and during '52 I think there was still issues and tension aplenty with Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Given today's ongoing tensions and stalemate in the region, I think that it would be too risky to set a movie in that region. Now you seem to have your own intel on the subject but I don't see any filmmaker in his right mind tying a $100M+ (with marketing costs, etc.) venture with the world's most volatile global hotspot. The last thing Paramount needs is a school bus full of kids getting blown up the week before the opening.

Also, your repeated references to 'Top-men' is somewhat interesting. Since you obviously can't talk names, what pay-grades do they have? . . .or (more interesting) are your "Top-men" not government employees at all?

. . . and you look after the good Colonel now, ya'hear?

What if Abner is one of the "Top-Men?"

You know, faked his death, but us the true authority on the Ark. Maybe Abner is the artifact.

"Find the man, and you have your prize" a sort of reoccuring theme with the film makers.

~now sipping his drink~

Yes. But do you really think that I am suggesting that the Ark is in Isreal? Or Washington D.C. for that matter, as the rumours say? We know more about it than you think.

Major,

I'm really thick so it's best to assume that I know nothing.

Based on your post from the 19th, I assumed that a return trip to the El Arka Mosque in Jerusalam (sp?) would be in the offing for Indy in Indy IV. Also, I assumed that the city/mountian you referenced, Megiddo, was somewhere in the vicinity. In either case, it just seemed like a good place to be for an end-of-the-world type storyline.

Sounds like someone has been going to Sunday School.

[Also, as a stupid aside, I never put the warehouse that houses the Ark in Washington. Even though in the '30's I bet there were plenty of functional warehouse type buildings in D.C. (some dating back to the Civil War), I assumed that a warehouse of that size belonged near an Army sea point of disembarkation ("SPOD") dating back to WWI --- since the Great War was the only event big enough to warrant such a large space (for moving tons of equipment, etc.). I don't recall but is there anything in the film that actually ties the warehouse to Washington? I say this is a stupid aside because the warehouse building itself certainly isn't grounded in any sort of reality -- but it's fun to kick it around and try to give it a backstory.]

~Coughs a bit on his liquor. The pipe hangs from the corner of his mouth as he looks around again at the cliental in the bar.~

It seems the events and history of Port Tewfik and the 'Queen Elizabeth' are not as forgotten with you as with everyone else here. This leads me to believe that you are either MI, OSS or just maybe you work the KGB. Your real name probably isn't even Joe Brody. Sources around here know you have also gone by the name of Sean, so be careful who you trust, or what you tell me.

Now, before you think about what you are going to do to me, I know about the Army from the north and how it plays into this Armeggedon...

The Ark was at the Port of Tewfik, on the Suez, through the war. But then in May of 1948, this shipping lane was closed, as you know very well. So the Ark was relocated, to a more profitable location... It was sometime during this period that we ran into Abner, or at least some of his associates. In the night, the Ark came up missing. After a time, we got word that the Raven was up and running again, which brought me here.

With Abner's whereabouts in question, and the Ark away from our control, I am afarid of what will happen next. It is crucial that we find it, considering the tensions growing in the middle east.

~stares long and hard at Joe~

Now can you, or anyone here at this table let me know anything you know about this? Or do I have to start messing with some of the other customers?

I'm afraid you're going to have to start messing with some of the other customers -- I don't know squat about Abner. Unfortunately, I'm on record with those here that say let the old guy rest -- but despite that initial predisposition, I'm thinking that you've got yourself a real creative situation on your hands.

Now tell me this, what did you mean by 'profitable'?

. . . and you never answered my question about 'Top Men'. To be blunt, 'Who we talking about'?

apalehorse, I hear you about Abner. One of my favorite story twists is when the person being sought turns out to be the bad guy. Problem with doing that with Abner is that the character still needs some earlier screentime to develop his character (and as discussed earlier above, I just don't see Indy teamed up with another old dude). I wish a story could work like this but off the top of my head I can't think of any movie where we meet the villian in the final third.

~chuckles to himself~

You want to know my sources, don't you. Very amusing. I cannot tell you about the 'Top-Men'. Secrecy is a very important aspect of my business, and I am sure at this point, you will respect that. But it won't surprise the most astute of you to find out my credentials, as I have spelled them out earlier. I will tell you this: We all know our Sunday School, as a certain archeologist recomended in our first encounter.

~Stands up from his chair~

But, remember this. I am not here to amuse the locals with history, and exposition about what once was. This is a fact finding mission. There is information in this bar, and as I get to know the right people and ask the right questions, I will find the answers, if you are as smart as I think you to be, you will to. I only hope I find them in time.

~Pulls his heavy dark overcoat collar up around his neck, and dons his Akubra. He reaches ever so suspiciously under his left armpit to pull out-

-an envelope. He throws it on the table, and the black and white picture of Abner and Henry slide from its opening~

These are the men I am looking for. I'll let you ponder the things I have said here. I see that there is another table that I must inquire in, for the time. If you think of something, just shout.

~He walks away from the table hoping his demeanor provides the necessary curiosity that spawns information he will need in the coming weeks and months. He also hopes any information, either procured or infered will lend to a better understanding of what the future holds...

Looking over his shoulder, back at Joe, he shouts out...~

Profitable. You know it's a situation where someone is prepared to make a generous offer to you, to act as courier, once 'They' get instructions for the money. Figure it out;-I believe the phrase now-a-days is; "dude".




[Edited by Maj. Eaton on 01-21-2004 at 11:42 pm]

Bravo, Major. Your 'visit' made my week. If there should be an adventure tied to world events in the early '50's, I just hope that we don't get another 'Havana.'

My dilemma is that I didn't go to Sunday School, I was the guy that hustled the kids outside.

. . .also, next time, be a little more careful when you reach into your jacket. I get the feeling that around here, it's an action that could have unintended, dire consequences.

[Edited by Joe Brody on 01-22-2004 at 07:17 am]

I think Abner's return would only work if he was a bad guy. Maybe he is a roguish military official working for the antagonist. The nice thing about being old, and a villian, would be the treachery involved.

Just another random thought:

What if Abner had been doing something shady for a few decades (intelligence, Soviets, Nazis whatever) but had to resurface when he learnt that someone was going to try to tap into the power of the Ark which he knew would trigger off Armageddan/let Army intelligence know of the existence of artifact X.

Therefore Abner contacts Indy anononymously setting Indy on another adventure setting up a mystery and an essential ambiguity about Abner's motivations (i.e. who he works for, imagine Indy finding a Nazi armband in his possessions)

All of that aside if Abner returns then he has to die, the genre commands it...

Renderking Fisk said:

Bringing Abner back is the return of the Soap factor that I mention in the ?Son of Jones? threads.

Click to expand...

Hmmm, so I guess you won't be too thrilled to learn that Marcus Brody is coming back, played by a different actor, and the explanation will be that the original Marcus had plastic surgery after a near-death experience on the ski-slopes.

All kidding aside, I agree with you 100%... having Abner return from the dead, or having a long lost brother/daughter/sister/uncle bob/aunt edna/etc, will be a bit too soap operish.

NOTE TO LUCAS/DARABONT: Keep it simple. Action, a bit of comedy and some good cliff-hangers are the key to a good Indy movie. We (or at least I) don't want anything too involved. No major twists, no bouts with depression or alcoholism, no long lost relatives, no returns from the grave. Got it? Good. Now get to work.

Maj. Eaton said:

I don't know what it means, Pilgrims in a Hindu land?

Click to expand...

Major -- if you're still around -- I forget to mention that the answers you seek may lie within the book below (although I doubt that Salvation lies within). I recommend Lamb -- it's a good read.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...5127497/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/103-6425334-5710266

To quote a line from a really bad movie (whose name escapes me at the moment), "When you is dead, you is dead and you ain't never coming back!" (see, the movie may have been really bad, but at least that quote speaks the truth.)

EDIT:
Hey, I just thought of a really bad idea (one you'll hate even more than UFOs.) What if Abner discovered an artifact that allows people to return from the dead? That would explain his coming back to life, and would also explain why some EVIL BAD GUY wants to obtain it, thus setting in motion the plot of Indy4!
Or maybe Abner was buried in a Pet Semetary... heh-heh.


[Edited by Randy_Flagg on 01-26-2004 at 09:12 am]

Abner wasn't dead in Raiders. Did you miss Maj. Eaton's post where he shows that Lucas had Abner respond to Indy for the Disney Ride "Temple of the Forbiddn Eye"? I havn't seen it myself, but the next time I go, I will investigate it for myself.

Why would Lucas leave a plot hole like that? All we know is that Indy said "where's Abner?" and Marion said "Abner's dead."

The only other reference to it is the rumor that he was buried in an avalanche.

Why are you so dead set on him being dead. It make a good plot point, and I am sure it wouldn't be handled like a soap opera. Every good story has layers. It looks as if most people here want a bit more from Abner, without getting campy.

All kidding aside, you do raise a valid point, Apalehorse.
Considering Marion's mood and the manner in which she says, "Abner's dead," it COULD be interpreted merely as a means to brush Indy off. And I suppose it's POSSIBLE that Marion merely considers Abner to be dead because his obsession with the ark has led him completely out of Marion's life.

I could actually see a scene in which Indy says to her, "You told me he was dead." And she replies, "He was dead to me, same as you were dead to me for those ten years you disappeared from my life." It's contrived, but cinema has done worse.

And, keep in mind that we're dealing with Lucas here. Maybe he'll go back and do a "Raiders: Special Edition" version in which he'll conveniently adjust the line to be, "Abner's dead... I think," or "Abner's dead... to me, at least." And then Lucas could ramble on about how "This was the way I originally envisioned it, but due to budget/time restraints, we had to cut the line."