Why are people so hard on Indy IV?

AndyLGR

Active member
Too much humour that wasn't remotely funny. Poor characters in ox, Marion, mutt and mac, not to mention an ending that made no sense whatsoever.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
I think it was a good film.
Like it or not, it's part of the canon, and it is the canonical ending to the series. So there.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Outside of the fridge, nothing in KOTCS is any more unrealistic than anything in the other films. And all the films had stupid moments.

The Nazi Monkey in Raiders giving the Nazi Salute.

Who could survive being pulled under and behind a truck going at high speeds, and then pull themselves up against the force of said truck, all while having a gun shot wound to the arm?

The raft and water ride segment scenes of TOD.

The silliness of the bug scenes in the TOD's dinner scene. Willie screaming every five minutes.

Short Round--typical 80s sidekick kid.

A man surviving his heart being ripped out of his chest.

The fact that the Sankara Stones are not explained in depth. We have no idea even why they're a threat except to the Indian village's stability.

The Rope Bridge scene. No one could survive that.

In LC, the fact that Indy gets his hat, scar, future adventure attire and fear of snakes all in the space of 15 minutes.

The scene in LC where the Nazi pilot destroys his plane to follow the Jones duo into the tunnel, then dumbly looks at his own plane, causing a goofy double take shared between father and son.

Sallah made into almost a village idiot in LC; Marcus made in a doddering old fool who seems half senile.

Indy meeting Adolf Hitler face to face and having the Diary signed by him.

And actually, if looking at it from a certain perspective, aliens are actually more plausible in terms of possibly being real than the Biblical God or the slew of Hindu deities.

All KOTCS did was amp up what already existed in the series a notch. Nothing more, nothing less. Take away the Fridge scene and you have a good final chapter on par with TOD.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
The Nazi Monkey in Raiders giving the Nazi Salute.

Monkeys can be trained.

I think some of them are members here.

Raiders112390 said:
Who could survive being pulled under and behind a truck going at high speeds, and then pull themselves up against the force of said truck, all while having a gun shot wound to the arm?

Indy had grit. Coupled with the adrenaline of the chase.

This was the 'stagecoach' stunt, and as such was integral to the story being told and the style being evoked.

Raiders112390 said:
The raft and water ride segment scenes of TOD.

Is tempered by snow, slope and water.

Raiders112390 said:
The silliness of the bug scenes in the TOD's dinner scene. Willie screaming every five minutes.

Is an issue of bad taste.

Raiders112390 said:
Short Round--typical 80s sidekick kid.

I don't know how typical Asian kung fu fighting kid sidekicks were in the '80s. Bruce Lee put in a credible adult version in the '60s.

Raiders112390 said:
A man surviving his heart being ripped out of his chest.

ROTLA established that the supernatural would be part of Indy's world.

Raiders112390 said:
The fact that the Sankara Stones are not explained in depth. We have no idea even why they're a threat except to the Indian village's stability.

If you want lessons in history and culture I wouldn't recommend getting them from Indiana Jones.

Raiders112390 said:
The Rope Bridge scene. No one could survive that.

Haven't seen that scene in a few years. As I remember it looked painful.

Raiders112390 said:
In LC, the fact that Indy gets his hat, scar, future adventure attire and fear of snakes all in the space of 15 minutes.

They were seminal moments that happened to come all at once.

Raiders112390 said:
The scene in LC where the Nazi pilot destroys his plane to follow the Jones duo into the tunnel, then dumbly looks at his own plane, causing a goofy double take shared between father and son.

Luftwaffe pilots weren't all they were cracked up to be.

Raiders112390 said:
Sallah made into almost a village idiot in LC; Marcus made in a doddering old fool who seems half senile.

As opposed to Mutt, Marion, Mac, Oxley, Spalko, Dovchenko and Stanforth being made to look like village idiots in KOTCS.

Raiders112390 said:
Indy meeting Adolf Hitler face to face and having the Diary signed by him.

It got much worse during the YIJC.

Raiders112390 said:
And actually, if looking at it from a certain perspective, aliens are actually more plausible in terms of possibly being real than the Biblical God or the slew of Hindu deities.

Agreed.

It makes sense that there are only aliens in Indiana Jones.

Raiders112390 said:
All KOTCS did was amp up what already existed in the series a notch. Nothing more, nothing less. Take away the Fridge scene and you have a good final chapter on par with TOD.

Take away the fridge scene and you lose the best part of the film.
 

pastureized

New member
Despite KOTCS being my least favorite Indy film, I still think parts of it have merit. I can handle the fridge scene and I understand Lucas and Spielberg's aspiration to expand the story by giving Indy a kid (even if he is irritating). One of my main issues lies in the overhaul of CGI. For me it just isn't able to live up to the gritty pulp serial-esque practical fx of the originals. Also, the aliens just felt out of place in my opinion.
 

indywannabbe

New member
It is my least favourite Indy film but it has grown on me. I disliked it most watching it at the cinema. Having bought the dvd though it has grown on me and is watchable. Sometimes just to look at Indys uniform in detail, how sad am I?

But it is too light hearted in parts and too much CGI.
The snake scene when used to help Indy out of quick sand was just too implausible although I can see why the idea came up, ie Indy not liking snakes but just leave your believability at the door when watching that scene.
Also little scenes like Marion smiling in the jeep as it nearly went over the cliff just wasn't right in the ant scene. Wasn't she scared? Probably other scenes that escape me for now.
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
I really don't know why this thread had to be started. The same 10 people that frequently post at TheRaven will just reiterate the same arguments they've been having since 2008. But, I'll bite.

scott434 said:
Am I the only one who really liked Indy IV? I've read soooooo many complaints!

I really hate this type of question. Of course not.

Far from it.

Overall - no, you're not the only one. I hate that question.

Critics liked it a lot. Audiences in the majority loved it. Indy fans as a whole like it a lot and many who didn't have warmed up to it. It was a box office/DVD success. It does amazingly well on cable. Internet commentary has shifted back to positive for the most part. It's a part of the series, now.

It has a vocal minority who whined about it for awhile and some still do. But, very few sequels don't have this at times. Internet commentary was negative for a while but it's back to positive as of recent years, which is good.

I was at the AMC Marathons of all four films last year. Everyone stayed for all the films and clapped for all four. KOTCS/LC got the biggest/best audience reception. Other Raveners who attended reported the same thing happen at their showings. Everyone I met there were positive, great people who loved the whole series. Same with when I went to the Nat. Geo exhibit in November.

Everyone I know loved the film - and I've got links to threads where most Raveners say the same.


-RottenTomatoes Score; 78%/User Score of 3.5 - .4 points less than 'Batman Begins'.
-Empire Magazine's Top 500 Films of All Time voted by readers/website users
-Cannes Film Festival = Standing Ovation
-MovieWeb Fan/Critic Accumulated score; 82% and a 3.8 "Great" score.
-CinemaScore= B+ average
-MetaCritic Score - 65 (4 Pts less than acclaimed Avengers) 7.1 User
-MovieFone 3.5 Stars Audience/4.0 Stars Critics
-Yahoo! Movies User Score - 4/5 Stars/B
-BoxOfficeMojo Surveys; 41% gave it an A, 37%; B. Compared to Temple of Doom's
37% A ratings, with each film; having the same number of votes, relatively.
-Fandango Critic/Fan Accumulated Scores of Hundreds of Votes/Reviews = Go!
-AICN - Two 'A' reviews. "Indiana Jones 4 is our childhood captured in perfection."
-Fandango Users/Critics Rated it 'Go Now!
-Nominated Best Action Movie at the 2009 Critics' Choice Awards.
-The Visual Effects Society nominated it for Best Single Visual Effect of the Year, Best Outstanding Matte Paintings, Best Models and Miniatures, and Best Created Environment in a Feature Motion Picture.
-Nominated by Saturn Awards for Best Science Fiction Film, Best Director, Best Actor, Best Supporting Actor, Best Costumes and Best Special Effects.
-Entertainment Weekly Review A-
-NY Times Review- A
-Coming Soon reviews = 8/10 and 7/10
-Billboard Review- B
-Saturday; Evening Post; - A
-Roger Ebert - 3/4 Stars
-Most Watched Film on TV - 2009/2010
-Top 3 DVD sales - 2008/09
-78% Voted Good to Excellent/Perfect at The Raven Net forums - 260+Voters.
-ComCast Cable Score - 3 out of 4 Stars
-SlashFilmSurvey; 254,356 votes, 83% voted 'loved it'.
TheRaven forums = 115 out of 168 people voted 7 or above, with 8 to 9 taking 50% of the vote.


Yeah...really feeling the hate. Yes, sarcasm on that.

So, no. You're not the only one. Not sure why you'd even ask that. Most people/fans liked it a lot, as did it the critics. A vocal minority whined for a couple years but that's all it was. Take care.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
And yet Randy Flagg's 4 points made above are valid points. I know there are all those organisations cited in Dr.Jonesy's post where there are all those marvellous percentages proving popularity, but the movie does require criticism for glaring shortcomings, which have been pointed out time and time again, so I won't do that here.

Some like it, some don't. A lot of people like McDonalds, but when you go to McDonalds you know what you are in for. With CS's sloppy burger, there had already been a banquet served, starting with a gourmet dish and then each course declining after that. Maybe Indy5 could be like a watered down cola to cut the grease of CS?
 

Dr.Jonesy

Well-known member
Mickiana said:
And yet Randy Flagg's 4 points made above are valid points. I know there are all those organisations cited in Dr.Jonesy's post where there are all those marvellous percentages proving popularity, but the movie does require criticism for glaring shortcomings, which have been pointed out time and time again, so I won't do that here.

Hey, of course. Any film does!
:)

The sect of people that ended up not liking the film are great for providing criticism (like any criticism, some is valid, some is nitpicking) and I agree with plenty of it. Unfortunately, a lot of it applies to the other sequels and made me take them down a peg as well.

Personally, I heard the criticism for this film and the other sequels enough years ago. It's been talked about to death so I've retired from the conversation to just enjoying all the films like most do.

Anyone who happens to dislike the film or any Indy sequel are fully allowed to have their take and I'm glad they helped flesh out what we loved and didn't love about this sequel and every sequel. Every film has room for criticism. The only thing I didn't like is when a vocal few went into hyperbole/downright hatred. Whether it's for Temple or Kingdom. Or even Crusade.
:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Mickiana said:
With CS's sloppy burger, there had already been a banquet served, starting with a gourmet dish and then each course declining after that.

The difference between a prime cut of beef, and the miscellaneous scrapings from the abattoir floor served up at full price to a young, hungry and benighted audience. ;)
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
With all of these food/taste metaphors rolling around, I'm beginning to think we'll get a proletariat and bourgeoisie argument here. KOTCS being for the former.

Raiders is the 1%!

Find your facebook page soon!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
With all of these food/taste metaphors rolling around, I'm beginning to think we'll get a proletariat and bourgeoisie argument here. KOTCS being for the former.

Raiders is the 1%!

Find your facebook page soon!

Dr.Jonesy's litany of the voting habits of the great unwashed - which, incidentally, demonstrates the inherent problems of democracy - portends the coming dictatorship of the proletariat.

Indy is dead. Long live the uber Indy.

Uber Indy "will not be held back by the hogwash of modern-mediocre-industrial-scientific-bourgeois-Christian civilization."

Uber Indy will take the skies to defy atom bombs and repel alien invasions.

No more puny arm-biting soft bourgeois Indy!

278.jpg


277.jpg
 

Indy's brother

New member
The ham-fisted execution of the film was the execution of the film, if you get my meaning. None of the basic ideas were inherently bad on their own. I stand behind my opinion that it was a solid premise. But if you want to go for humor in such an iconic franchise, well, it should actually be funny, or else it's just corny. And I am well aware that Indy films aren't meant to be really deep or anything, but if the creators lack the self-awareness to sell the STORY, how can anyone be expected to take it seriously enough to suspend their disbelief through the whole film.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
To the Above

Joss Whedon is that YOU?!

"A movie has to be complete within itself; it can't just build off the first one or play variations. You know that thing in Temple of Doom where they revisit the shooting trick? ... That's what you don't want. And I feel that's what all of culture is becoming -- it's becoming that moment."
 

Dr. Gonzo

New member
Pale Horse said:
With all of these food/taste metaphors rolling around...

Those food analogies were pretty clever.

If I had to put my spin on it I'd say if you're at a steak house sitting down for dinner Raiders was your great cut of meat.

Doom was your side dish that complemented the main course...
for me I'd say some fancy cheesy garlic potatoes or something (everyone's taste is different so fill in your choice there).

Crusade was the dessert, probably a small scoop of vanilla ice cream, sweet not too heavy.

Then your sitting, waiting around to pay the check.
And just before you get your bill, the waiter says, " I'm terribly sorry... we forgot to serve you your dinner roll..." and at that moment he plops down a single slice of the plain white bread that was Crystal Skull...



...and from that, hypothetically if there were to be an Indy 5 (which there won't be) at this point the only thing that could redeem the foul up with the lingering dry taste of bread would be a small dinner mint on your way out.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
Joss Whedon is that YOU?!



Joss also has a problem with Empire Strikes Back.

Before you assume that everyone’s favorite Star Wars movie is The Empire Strikes Back, talk to Joss Whedon. The writer/director has long been on the record as saying that, while he likes and respects Empire, he thinks A New Hope is the superior film. “I still believe that even though The Empire Strikes Back is better in innumerable ways than Star Wars, Star Wars wins because you can’t end a movie with Han frozen in Carbonite,” Whedon said in the past. “That’s not a movie, it’s an episode.”

Whedon: Empire committed the cardinal sin of not actually ending. Which at the time I was appalled by and I still think it was a terrible idea.

EW: You think Empire had a bad ending?

Whedon: Well, it’s not an ending. It’s a Come Back Next Week, or in three years. And that upsets me. I go to movies expecting to have a whole experience. If I want a movie that doesn’t end I’ll go to a French movie. That’s a betrayal of trust to me. A movie has to be complete within itself, it can’t just build off the first one or play variations.


I'm a big fan of Joss' Firefly series, and I think he's missing the point that both Star Wars and Indy were both based upon series. That is, episodic in nature, and not necessarily complete in themselves.

The problem with KOTCS, however, as Indy's bro illuminated, is that it's just "ham-fisted". It sold the main character but neither the story nor the characters he interacts with. And the snake-rope gag... beyond corny to the point of 'did that really just happen?'


Dr. Gonzo said:
Then your sitting, waiting around to pay the check.
And just before you get your bill, the waiter says, " I'm terribly sorry... we forgot to serve you your dinner roll..." and at that moment he plops down a single slice of the plain white bread that was Crystal Skull...

Would you describe it as stale or full-on green and furry?
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Dr. Gonzo said:
...and from that, hypothetically if there were to be an Indy 5 (which there won't be) at this point the only thing that could redeem the foul up with the lingering dry taste of bread would be a small dinner mint on your way out.

When you say this, why do I feel like you're telling me the Johnson's are now in charge?
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Dr. Gonzo

New member
Pale Horse said:
When you say this, why do I feel like you're telling me the Johnson's are now in charge?

MV5BMTMzNTU5MDk4NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzg3NDY5Mw%2540%2540._V1._SX640_SY484_.jpg

Yippie-kay-yay.:hat:
1KBJA.gif


What a clever bunch we all are...
Montana Smith said:
Would you describe it as stale or full-on green and furry?
You guys are why I still stick around this tavern.
 
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