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View Poll Results: Rey is the progeny of...
Luke & (Mara?) 5 41.67%
Obi Wan & (Satine?) 5 41.67%
Qui Gon & (Shmi?) 0 0%
Anakin & (midi-chlorians?) 1 8.33%
Palpatine or/and Dooku 1 8.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-06-2018, 09:33 AM   #76
JasonMa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
That whole quote and the message behind it doesn't make sense. It certainly doesn't win wars, either.

These films are for cultural theorists, and those who believe in modern critical theory. They're not for fans of Star Wars.
I agree with Raiders112390 here. These movies are made with a different viewpoint and one that IMO doesn't represent why Star Wars has been so enduring. That doesn't make the viewpoint wrong or not worth investigating, I'm just not sure why you make that viewpoint into a Star Wars movie. Certainly not a Star Wars movie that is the continuation of the story that came before. I think this topic might have been great for one of the stand-alone stories like Rogue One or Solo, but not for the final trilogy of trilogies.

And I hate Rose's line because it is completely nonsensical in the moment.

"Hey, I stopped you from destroying the uber-weapon that was about to destroy us all because its important to save what you love. I died doing it, and barring a no-way-expected appearance by Luke Force-ghosting himself across the galaxy to buy the Rebellion the time they need to escape that they lost when I prevented the weapon's destruction, you're going to die at the hands of the Empire too. But aren't you glad we had this moment?".

I mean, really, in context of the scene, that's what was going to happen. How does Rose's move make any sense other than to the writer/director who knows what's going to happen next and that Finn and the Rebellion will survive. Without foreknowledge it appears Rose has just doomed the Resistance, killed Finn, and allowed the First Order to complete its conquest.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:28 AM   #77
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I agree too, but, then again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMa
I mean, really, in context of the scene, that's what was going to happen. How does Rose's move make any sense other than to the writer/director who knows what's going to happen next and that Finn and the Rebellion will survive. Without foreknowledge it appears Rose has just doomed the Resistance, killed Finn, and allowed the First Order to complete its conquest.


...from a certain point of view...

The Star Wars Deus Ex Machina that can be used to explain away everything in the Galaxy, Far Far Away.
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:56 AM   #78
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So, the wife was out and I was home alone (never happens) so I put this on to re-watch it. I only saw it once upon its release. I didn't make it more than 30 minutes. Really not a good movie.
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:15 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMa
I agree with Raiders112390 here. These movies are made with a different viewpoint and one that IMO doesn't represent why Star Wars has been so enduring. That doesn't make the viewpoint wrong or not worth investigating, I'm just not sure why you make that viewpoint into a Star Wars movie. Certainly not a Star Wars movie that is the continuation of the story that came before. I think this topic might have been great for one of the stand-alone stories like Rogue One or Solo, but not for the final trilogy of trilogies.

And I hate Rose's line because it is completely nonsensical in the moment.

"Hey, I stopped you from destroying the uber-weapon that was about to destroy us all because its important to save what you love. I died doing it, and barring a no-way-expected appearance by Luke Force-ghosting himself across the galaxy to buy the Rebellion the time they need to escape that they lost when I prevented the weapon's destruction, you're going to die at the hands of the Empire too. But aren't you glad we had this moment?".

I mean, really, in context of the scene, that's what was going to happen. How does Rose's move make any sense other than to the writer/director who knows what's going to happen next and that Finn and the Rebellion will survive. Without foreknowledge it appears Rose has just doomed the Resistance, killed Finn, and allowed the First Order to complete its conquest.

To simplify it: These films are designed to make one think, whereas I think the original films were designed to make one feel. I'm not saying the originals were dumb action films; no, by far there are thought-provoking elements to them. But when you watch those films, you don't really have to delve deeply into nuance to justify elements, nor do you have to really dig deep to find meaning or explain how beloved characters being essentially turned into almost villains is actually brilliant. They're simple films for the most part and that's the charm of them. Empire is a classic film but it's not very thought-provoking, not compared to these current films anyway.

There's a very black/white thing going on in the originals, with some hints of grey here and there. You're supposed to FEEL the Force, not think about it or its social or socio-political significance. Here, the Force is something to be theorized, deconstructed - in fact, the whole film is deconstructionist.

TLJ deconstructs the original films and that's why a lot of older (Generation X) people love it - it's very Gen X in its mindset, very cynical. Almost akin to an early Kevin Smith film in a sense - nothing matters. No cows are sacred. Luke is a coward. Han is a scumbag. Leia is a bad mom. It connects well with how Gen X feels about the older generation; it connects well with the underlying cynicism Gen X, as they've gotten older, feel about the world. The traditions of the past are meant to be deconstructed preach the social scientists, and Gen X likes that very much because all their lives, they've been let down. They were the children of idealists turned stock traders, the first generation whose cohorts were aborted in huge numbers; unwanted - so why should the past matter? Kill it if you have to. Nothing matters, not tradition, not heroes. Heroes, especially in deconstructionist and Marxian philosophy, are meant to be taken down. After all, "you live long enough, you see yourself become the villain." Meanwhile, you throw some anti-capitalist elements in there to grab Millenial viewers.

In the originals, you had fallen heroes, but that was all there was to it. They were fallen. You had good guys, some who were anti-heroes and some who weren't - but these films weren't designed to make you think. In fact they were made for kids and teens to enjoy. They were made with a CONSCIOUS desire to get away from the thought-provoking and socially important science fiction films of the 1960s like Planet of the Apes and 2001. TLJ is closer to those films than to the simple story of a farm boy becoming a man.

In the originals a lot is shown, and just as much is told. In these films, we're shown a lot and told little, as well. And it doesn't matter, because nothing matters. Snoke's backstory? Doesn't matter, man. How Kylo even was turned by Snoke? Doesn't matter, dude. Nothing does.

Nothing matters. Tradition, and our heroes, are meant to be torn down and discussed until their meaning is lost.
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:27 AM   #80
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And now, as a solid Gen X'er, I'm going to disagree with you. Your take on Gen X doesn't match anything me or my similarly aged friends feel or grew up with.

I will agree that yes, the original trilogy didn't make you think about the ramifications of a galaxy with the Force or how the Rebellion got the weapons to fight the Empire. But then, neither do most legends/fairy tales. And that's what the original trilogy was, our modern day fairy tale.
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Old 04-07-2018, 10:52 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMa
And now, as a solid Gen X'er, I'm going to disagree with you. Your take on Gen X doesn't match anything me or my similarly aged friends feel or grew up with.

I will agree that yes, the original trilogy didn't make you think about the ramifications of a galaxy with the Force or how the Rebellion got the weapons to fight the Empire. But then, neither do most legends/fairy tales. And that's what the original trilogy was, our modern day fairy tale.

Would you agree though that the last film was deliberately deconstructionist in a very Marxian sort of way? That it took what you said the original was, and went out of its way to tear that down - to essentially knock the original trilogy off their pedestal, so to speak; and thus to deconstruct our own past in a sense (given how much Star Wars was an icon in the 1970s and 1980s) - Heroes are never JUST heroes; Nuance abounds. More, the heroes you grew up rooting for are cowards and failures.

I just find it a very cynical film in that sense. In the larger sense one can defend it and say "But Luke has an arc", yeah, but it's an arc he already went through 30 years ago. Every character of the original trilogy is reset to the point they were at at the beginning of the series, with their arcs throughout the original trilogy disregarded or thrown out already or repeated. When we meet Han in the originals, he's a selfish smuggler. By the end of the series, he's reformed, he's a good guy and realizes certain things are bigger than his own needs. When we meet Han in the new film, he's a selfish smuggler. Luke is a headstrong, smug whiny kid in Empire who thinks he knows it all and in Star Wars, he has his uncle's force-fed belief that the problems of the universe are bigger than him and "so far away from here"; by Jedi he has overcome that and gained a certain calm that comes with maturity; In TLJ, he's a bitter, smug, arrogant old man who doesn't care about the wider universe anymore.

To me it's a very depressing, cynical film, with a maddening and prequel-esque middle act. The film for me is very much a mess. You have these Marxian and deconstructionist themes competing with a Casino scene straight out of Attack of the Clones. Very bizarre film and not in a good way. Weirdly constructed.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:18 PM   #82
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Oh yeah, I completely agree with your take on the movie, just not your take on Gen X.

Rian Johnson very purposely tried to stomp on the love of the original trilogy and I do not understand why other than his ego and the general trend (which didn't originate or isn't limited to Gen X) of showing why everything good needs to be destroyed.

Personally as one of those Gen X fans who kept Star Wars alive for 20 years before the Special Editions re-energized the IP I felt rather insulted at people who told me "It wasn't your movie, it was a movie for this generation's kids". I mean, that's fine, but you don't need to create a movie that intentionally insults the customers that made it possible for you to make the movie in the first place.
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Old 04-08-2018, 09:15 AM   #83
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I have seen the term fairy tale mentioned a few times in relation to the original trilogy. that moniker only holds up with the very first film, after that the story no longer is a fairytale, it becomes a saga, so critique of destroying the fairytale should be registered against ESB, and RotJ as well. if you're not willing to make those absolutes, you're not ready to critique the entirety of the film Canon.
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:42 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Pale Horse
I have seen the term fairy tale mentioned a few times in relation to the original trilogy. that moniker only holds up with the very first film, after that the story no longer is a fairytale, it becomes a saga, so critique of destroying the fairytale should be registered against ESB, and RotJ as well. if you're not willing to make those absolutes, you're not ready to critique the entirety of the film Canon.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
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