Was Donovan's demise a little deeper?

Was the biblical Irony of Donovan's demise intentional?

  • Ashes to Ashes isn't really a leap, Spielberg meant it

    Votes: 18 69.2%

  • Yeah right Indy's bro, these movies aren't THAT deep

    Votes: 8 30.8%

  • LC? That was over 20 years ago, why aren't we talking about Indy 5?

    Votes: 4 15.4%
  • Total voters
    26
I

Indy's brother

New member
Genesis3:19b " for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
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Do you think that it was intentional that an Indy villain that wanted an eternal earthly life by way of a judeo/christian artifact and was then poetically reduced to ash and (probably) sent to hell, or do you think that it was a subconcious serendipity on the part of Spielberg?

Was it just a cool way to visually dispatch a main villian in a movie series that deals with the occult/violent death/spectacle? Or did it conciously represent a more metaphysical belief by the director? How much credit would you like to give to Steven on this?

Seriously. Was it intentional?
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
I don't think that, on this occasion, Spielberg was going for Biblical 'ashes to ashes'.

He was giving Donovan the very oppositive of what he desired: rather than immortality on earth, he gave him accelerated aging, which drew on the old Hammer Horror movies of Dracula ageing to the point of decaying into dust.

Because decay naturally ends with dust (eventually), it just happens to mimic a Biblical text.
 
I

Indy's brother

New member
Montana Smith said:
He was giving Donovan the very oppositive of what he desired: rather than immortality on earth, he gave him accelerated aging
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That's what I was trying to say about poetic justice

Montana Smith said:
which drew on the old Hammer Horror movies of Dracula ageing to the point of decaying into dust.
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You're right about that. I don't know which movie it is, but there's a color vampire film from the late 60's/early 70's that had almost the exact bit with the ring, dust, and the breeze blowing it away!!!! Anyone here know that reference?

Montana Smith said:
Because decay naturally ends with dust (eventually), it just happens to mimic a Biblical text.
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Yes it does mimic a biblical text. Since GL has notoriously mined the bible for Star Wars inspiration, and SS has made more than a few films regarding the plight of the jewish people, and their common ground of Indiana Jones has dealt with 50% biblical relics (meaning silver screen MAIN artifacts, people, so don't nitpick), it's curious that there is such an coincidence with Donovan's demise.

So with their backgrounds, GL and SS simply chose this without any conscious or subconscious pretext and just paid homage to a Hammer film? I can accept your opinion, but you were the first person to respond to this thread, so I'm just bouncing off of your response to fortify my own assertion...don't take it personal ;)
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
You're right about that. I don't know which movie it is, but there's a color vampire film from the late 60's/early 70's that had almost the exact bit with the ring, dust, and the breeze blowing it away!!!! Anyone here know that reference?
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Well, it had Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee. I think it was the occasion Cushing jumped on a dinner table and picked up two candlesticks, holding them together as a cross before ripping the curtains open. Something like that, anyway.

Indy's brother said:
Yes it does mimic a biblical text. Since GL has notoriously mined the bible for Star Wars inspiration, and SS has made more than a few films regarding the plight of the jewish people, and their common ground of Indiana Jones has dealt with 50% biblical relics (meaning silver screen MAIN artifacts, people, so don't nitpick), it's curious that there is such an coincidence with Donovan's demise.

So with their backgrounds, GL and SS simply chose this without any conscious or subconscious pretext and just paid homage to a Hammer film?
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I see a practical choice, too. In ROTLA there was melting Toht; exploding Belloq and imploding Dietrich. TOD had Mola being fed to crocodiles. LC had to do something different, but yet still in a pulpy way.

The ageing comes to mind first, for me, and then the ashes to ashes reference is a poetic coincidence. The Complete Making of... book doesn't mention anything at all about this scene.

Indy's brother said:
I can accept your opinion, but you were the first person to respond to this thread, so I'm just bouncing off of your response to fortify my own assertion...don't take it personal ;)
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Well, my esteemed opponent, if we cannot find agreement here, we shall continue our dispute down in the courtyard at dawn. "Carruthers, be a good chap and fetch my duelling pistols..." ;)

:hat:
 
I

Indy's brother

New member
Montana Smith said:
Well, it had Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee. I think it was the occasion Cushing jumped on a dinner table and picked up two candlesticks, holding them together as a cross before ripping the curtains open. Something like that, anyway.



I see a practical choice, too. In ROTLA there was melting Toht; exploding Belloq and imploding Dietrich. TOD had Mola being fed to crocodiles. LC had to do something different, but yet still in a pulpy way.
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There's no denying that, of course,

Montana Smith said:
The ageing comes to mind first, for me, and then the ashes to ashes reference is a poetic coincidence. The Complete Making of... book doesn't mention anything at all about this scene.
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Hmmmmm. Not a word, eh? Perhaps I'll Have to go with "Subconscious Intent".....Impossible to prove or disprove, like any good conspiracy theory....Able to be argued indefinitely.... Yes, I believe I will go with "Subconscious Intent":whip:


Montana Smith said:
Well, my esteemed opponent, if we cannot find agreement here, we shall continue our dispute down in the courtyard at dawn. "Carruthers, be a good chap and fetch my duelling pistols..."
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"Maximillian: Hmm, interesting. I've been stabbed, hung, and lost my head, but I've never been shot before. It kinda itches a little."
-Vampire in Brooklyn
(sorry, best I could find)
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
Hmmmmm. Not a word, eh? Perhaps I'll Have to go with "Subconscious Intent".....Impossible to prove or disprove, like any good conspiracy theory....Able to be argued indefinitely.... Yes, I believe I will go with "Subconscious Intent":whip:
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That normally covers a multitude of sins! ;)

I'm sure ashes to ashes got in there somewhere, at some stage. Odd there was no mention of Donovan's demise, but it does spend less time on each successive movie.

Indy's brother said:
"Maximillian: Hmm, interesting. I've been stabbed, hung, and lost my head, but I've never been shot before. It kinda itches a little."
-Vampire in Brooklyn
(sorry, best I could find)
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"On second thoughts, Carruthers, break up aunt Agatha's oak dining chairs, and sharpen the legs..."
 
Attila the Professor

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
I was wondering if there'd been any mention of Horror of Dracula here in the past. I just saw it a couple of nights ago, and the possibility for influence here is pretty strong. Take a look:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3gBRe2XMljg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Note particularly the shot at 2:45. Instantaneous aging can only account for so much, but the man's dusty remains being blown away, leaving just a remnant of his identity or allegiance? That's another, even with the probable Genesis 3:19 connection implied above.

378.jpg
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
Note particularly the shot at 2:45. Instantaneous aging can only account for so much, but the man's dusty remains being blown away, leaving just a remnant of his identity or allegiance? That's another, even with the probable Genesis 3:19 connection implied above.
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A neat parallel, Attila. It's been so long since I saw it that I'd forgotten about the 'remnant'.
 
I

Indy's brother

New member
Awesome! Thank you for posting that video, 'Tilla! That scene has been scratching at my brain ever since I posted this, and I haven't seen it since I was about 8 years old. It's actually even more like the Donovan scene than I had originally recalled. *pats self on ass*
 
Goodeknight

Goodeknight

New member
Montana Smith said:
Because decay naturally ends with dust (eventually), it just happens to mimic a Biblical text.
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It also "just happens" to mimic, in a way, the end of millions of Jews in the ovens. Reduced to ashes by the Nazis in their greed and overpowering desire to achieve immortality.
 
M

Montana Smith

Active member
goodeknight said:
It also "just happens" to mimic, in a way, the end of millions of Jews in the ovens. Reduced to ashes by the Nazis in their greed and overpowering desire to achieve immortality.
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:eek:

Though the industrial process of that abhorrent operation would not have left any valuables with the body. :dead:


On a lighter note, Ming's ring in the dust from Flash Gordon (1980):

Flash-Gordon-cult-films-1946530-768-432.jpg


It's not his dust, but he did disappear.
 
S

Skywalker82

New member
Donovan's death

Who else thought it was an amazing special effect?

I mean his hair getting long, his skin getting old with his lips curling up, his teeth popping out then his eyes turn white then turn into raisins presumingly going down his throat, his skin turning brown leather with his nose disappearing and ears dissolving in detail. Nothing sort of breathtaking visual effect.

What was it with Donovan's clothes dissolving too? did the grail have power over his clothes or what?
 
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Moedred

Moedred

Administrator
Staff member
In the recently acquired Sun Wu Kung script, Baron Seagrove's ectoplasm now animates a skeleton from an iron maiden, which Indy torches. So, the skeleton may have just been another leftover.
 
Kooshmeister

Kooshmeister

New member
If you ask me, his poor choice wasn't the false Grail itself, but his decision to believe the obviously untrustworthy Elsa. :whip:
 
Pale Horse

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Kooshmeister said:
If you ask me, his poor choice wasn't the false Grail itself, but his decision to believe the obviously untrustworthy Elsa. :whip:
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Indeed. "Don't Trust Anyone, Dr. Jones" ... oh the irony of trusting a double agent. Or is that a triple agent? KOTCS foreshadowing?
 
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