Indiana Jones, the Supernatural, and Suspension of Disbelief

I recently completed Steve Perry?s Indiana Jones and the Army of the Dead, and it made me think about the role of the supernatural in Indy adventures. For those who aren?t familiar with the novel, it is steeped in voodoo mythology, including zombies, and it also references an as-yet-unwritten adventure featuring were-jaguars. These are obviously pretty outlandish concepts, but ones that have been pretty standard throughout pulp/adventure fiction. Despite their familiar nature, how comfortable are you with concepts such as these existing in the Indy universe?

Some people will probably think this is a weird or stupid question. After all, the series is rife with supernatural happenings. However, I believe it is important to examine the nature of the paranormal activity of the films. Aside from the Ark and its power, Raiders has no supernatural elements whatsoever; similarly, Last Crusade?s only supernatural element is the Grail (and an immortal knight who drank from it). Both of these artifacts are biblically based and, as such, I think Western audiences have less difficulty suspending their disbelief toward them. Temple probably contains the most paranormal activity in the series, including a personality-altering potion, magical heart surgery, and glowing/ crop-nourishing stones. Aspects of Temple are more fantastic and thus harder to suspend disbelief about, although the Sankara Stones themselves don?t actually do very much. It is interesting that the events of the film are apparently insufficient in making Indy a believer in the supernatural. Crystal Skull veers into science fiction with its ?interdimensional beings,? and thus contains no supernatural elements. While the paranormal elements in the series are explicit, they are not too pervasive and are relatively ?low impact.? Basically, the fantasy elements of the Indy series are more ?realistic? relative to comparable movies. For example, compare the supernatural of the Indy series with a similarly pulp-inspired series, The Mummy. The Mummy series contains reanimated corpses, reincarnation, a half-man/half-scorpion, an army of Anubis-like soldiers, terracotta warriors, and yetis. I feel that most of these concepts would be wildly out of place in an Indy film.

So, how much supernatural can you tolerate in your Indy adventures? Would you be interested in an Indy tale without any supernatural elements (such as Indy and Mac recovering a code-breaking device during WWII)? Would it take you out of a story if Indy battled a werewolf or a mummy? What do you think the best balance is? Thanks in advance for any and all responses.
 

Indy's brother

New member
Charlemagne said:
So, how much supernatural can you tolerate in your Indy adventures? Would you be interested in an Indy tale without any supernatural elements (such as Indy and Mac recovering a code-breaking device during WWII)? Would it take you out of a story if Indy battled a werewolf or a mummy? What do you think the best balance is? Thanks in advance for any and all responses.

It's been said before in response to KOTCS's fan-dividing elements. "It's all about execution. If doled out with restraint, I think just about anything is possible. A full-fledged werewolf attack, no. But leading the audience to believe that is what is happening for a minute before revealing that it's a maniac with Hypertrichosis. A quick scare with a faux mummy in a similar way would be fine, too. Of course, if it's the climax of the movie and has been built up to correctly, the more I think of it, it would be cool....if executed in a creepy TOD gross-out way.

The opinions of a sleep-deprived Indy' Brother are for entertainment purposes only, and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of aforementioned Ravener come this time tomorrow.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
I always felt that restraint was the best recipe for the inclusion of supernatural elements in the Indy series.

Now, the ending of "raiders" can hardly be called subtle. But, as you point out, it's at the very end of the movie and is the only overtly supernatural element in the entire film.

(Let's leave debates about the light trap aside. I seriously doubt most - even the filmmakers - really considered that "supernatural", even though it is obviously an utterly unrealistic flight of fancy.)

I had no problem in ToD with a few extra supernatural elements. Even with the voodoo doll and heart ripping.

But Indy fighting actual monsters is not something I wish to see. I can't really give you a compelling, nuanced reason other than that it would "feel wrong" to have too much magic in an Indy story.

Each of the Indy "prologue" adventures involves non-magical objects and I enjoyed seeing that side of his life very much. Though I admit that I think, given the pattern that has been established, it would feel odd and maybe even mundane if the main plot of an Indy movie was conventional - i.e. non-magical.

We have plenty of other characters for those kinds of movies. Indy's an "expert in the occult", after all. I don't want to see him on a mission that James Bond could handle.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Indy is an earthy bloke, a grounded scientist and is at least very unbiased in his views on the supernatural, but to have him fighting supernatural foes is to take him from the viability of his connections to 'ordinary' history and takes him unnecessarily on flights of cartoon fancy. Supernatural foes tips the whole Indyverse into pointless landscapes of two dimensional characters/creatures and ultimately becomes very boring.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
The Ark and the Grail presuppose that there's a God, and God has his angels, and he also has his opponents (Satan and all his little helpers).

The Sankara Stones and Mola Ram presuppose that there is also a Kali and Shiva.

Then there's the IDBs, who also occupy the position of godlike entities.

So we have the beginnings of multiple myths becoming real for Indy: otherworldly beings exerting power over the earth.

The question is whether or not we can accept Indy facing these beings (or their little helpers) as tangible creatures; or whether we'd rather see their activies as deus ex machina (their effect but not their physical causes).

It's a question that I've thought about ever since I first saw Raiders. It's like saying that it's easier to accept the activity of an invisible poltergeist, than it is to accept seeing a ghost do poltergeist stuff.

In the comics and novels it's probably easier to accept, but the problem arises when you try to imagine Indy on film facing ghosts or supernatural creatures.

I'm torn, because I'd like to see him face zombies. I find it easier to accept if I think of Indy's world as similar to Hellboy's: that weird stuff happens because it's a natural part of his universe. After all, Indy's experienced weird on a number of occasions. He probably wonders why he hasn't yet seen a demon or a ghost.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
I'm torn, because I'd like to see him face zombies. I find it easier to accept if I think of Indy's world as similar to Hellboy's: that weird stuff happens because it's a natural part of his universe. After all, Indy's experienced weird on a number of occasions. He probably wonders why he hasn't yet seen a demon or a ghost.

I'd much prefer to see Indy face "classic" zombies - i.e. victims of voodoo possession - rather than the modern, Romero-inspired brain-eaters. The former seems to fit much more comfortably into the Indy universe.

I think the Hellboy universe is great fun, but in that case, literally every single mythology, legend, monster, religion, ghost story, superstition, etc. that Mignola and his collaborators have every heard of has been or can be shown to exist. It's a VERY crowded cosmology. Ditto for the Buffyverse.

Now, frankly, I like the fact that, from what little we have seen, Indy also has an ecumenical cosmology - we have seen that multiple gods apparently exist. I think that makes for a much more interesting and much more "fun" universe, logic be damned.

Your poltergeist analogy is interesting. I dunno. I'd much rather have Indy stumble across, say, an magical (or cursed) Greek artifact than have him fight a minotaur hand to hand.

Does it make much "sense"? Is there any real logic or consistency to my feelings? Probably not.

But the idea of Indy fighting actual monsters just feels...wrong somehow.*




*(That said, I even kinda enjoyed the Dracula episode of YIJC and didn't feel that was particularly out of place. But vampires is probably where I'd drawn the line. Again, it's just a gut feeling, not really based on hard reasoning.)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
I'd much prefer to see Indy face "classic" zombies - i.e. victims of voodoo possession - rather than the modern, Romero-inspired brain-eaters. The former seems to fit much more comfortably into the Indy universe.

While I like the idea of Romero-type zombies, I agree that the I Walked With a Zombie stlye would be more in-keeping (and palatable for a family audience). If you've seen the film Outpost, there is another kind of undead: the pasty-faced SS soldiers who are ghosts with the ability to become corporeal (like the pirates in Carpenter's The Fog). The undead of Outpost aren't disgustingly rotten, but have the parchment tight skin of a human who's lived beyond their normal span of years.

Lance Quazar said:
I think the Hellboy universe is great fun, but in that case, literally every single mythology, legend, monster, religion, ghost story, superstition, etc. that Mignola and his collaborators have every heard of has been or can be shown to exist. It's a VERY crowded cosmology. Ditto for the Buffyverse.

Now, frankly, I like the fact that, from what little we have seen, Indy also has an ecumenical cosmology - we have seen that multiple gods apparently exist. I think that makes for a much more interesting and much more "fun" universe, logic be damned.

In that case I'd like Indy to follow one tangent from Hellboy: the von Klempt and Kroenen style of Nazi created supernatural/technologically enhanced super-soldier. The mechanical undead, leftovers from the war encountered by Indy in the 1960s. At least it would be a chance to go back to the first villains he encountered on screen. We might be able to accept something strange if it was created by the alchemy of the human mind, with a little added unknown mystery that crosses into the pseudo-scientific.

Lance Quazar said:
Your poltergeist analogy is interesting. I dunno. I'd much rather have Indy stumble across, say, an magical (or cursed) Greek artifact than have him fight a minotaur hand to hand.

Does it make much "sense"? Is there any real logic or consistency to my feelings? Probably not.

But the idea of Indy fighting actual monsters just feels...wrong somehow.*

It's a tough one, knowing what feels right and wrong. Seeing the actual minotaur would blow open the unexplained mystery, whereas the magical artifact retains the mystery. If we see the minotaur we then see everything else from Greek legend, but the artifact with powers keeps us guessing.

Lance Quazar said:
*(That said, I even kinda enjoyed the Dracula episode of YIJC and didn't feel that was particularly out of place. But vampires is probably where I'd drawn the line. Again, it's just a gut feeling, not really based on hard reasoning.)

And in this case, with the knowledge of the old Indy bookends, we aren't even sure whether old Indy was telling a ghost story, or whether he really did meet Dracula. Therefore, the mystery is still retained.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
The Lucas connection:

Raiders Story Conference Transcript, 1978


GEORGE LUCAS: I thought it would be interesting to have him be a sort of expert in the occult, as an offshoot of the anthropological side of this thing...A study of ancient religions and voodoo and all that kind of stuff. He's a guy who sort of checks out ghosts and psychic phenomenon in connection with the kind of things he does. He's a sort of archeological exorcist. When somebody has a haunted house, or a haunted temple, and nobody will go near it, he is the one who will go in there and do it... Assuming that he believes in the supernatural because he deals with it, he is the one they send into the haunted house...A lot of the times they are hoaxes. And he can figure it out.


The (almost) Spielberg connection:

Raiders, 1981:

267.jpg


Poltergeist, 1982:

Mom-Skeleton.jpg
 

Goodeknight

New member
While there are big supernatural elements in the Indy films, they work because they're not 'pulp supernatural.' Vampires, zombies, were-anythings are way too pulp to work. Too worn out.
 

Montana Smith

Active member

Goodeknight

New member
Montana Smith said:
What's your take on Young Indy's Masks of Evil?

It felt so out of place that I think it can be nothing more than an Old Indy Hallowe'en story. (Despite the loss of the bookends).

That pretty much is my take. The most out of place story in the entire series. Fun to watch, but more like a tall tale than a real story. That's the only time, it seems, Old Indy was just full of it.

As a side note...

young%2Bindiana%2Bjones_vlad.jpg


Beware the were-rabbit!! Who came up with THAT?!?
 

Stoo

Well-known member
goodeknight said:
Beware the were-rabbit!! Who came up with THAT?!?
It's an homage to the classic, "Nosferatu" (1922):

Nosferatu+-+Still+-+German+-+1922.jpg


P.S. Rocket was 2 minutes ahead of me.:hat:
 

Montana Smith

Active member
goodeknight said:
That pretty much is my take. The most out of place story in the entire series. Fun to watch, but more like a tall tale than a real story. That's the only time, it seems, Old Indy was just full of it.


I find the Kafka episode to be the next most out of place story. An absurd tale intended to illustrate the absurd novels of that author.

It's these two stories that make me question the validity of YIJC in the Indy canon. (Not-quite-so-old Indy might have been full of it when he dropped the Pancho Villa connection to Mutt ;)).


Rocky said:
I think its a nod to Nosferatu...

Stewie said:
It's an homage to the classic, "Nosferatu" (1922):


Nosferatu was creepy. Only saw it once, but his shadow creeping up the stairs is something never forgotten. :eek:


That said, Masks of Evil is a good supernatural story. It would have been more fitting if there were more like it during the series. Though that wasn't what George had in mind for television-Indy.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Lance Quazar said:
I'd much prefer to see Indy face "classic" zombies - i.e. victims of voodoo possession - rather than the modern, Romero-inspired brain-eaters. The former seems to fit much more comfortably into the Indy universe.
Something like, "Serpent and the Rainbow", might fit. Indy in Haiti!
Smiffy said:
I find the Kafka episode to be the next most out of place story. An absurd tale intended to illustrate the absurd novels of that author.

It's these two stories that make me question the validity of YIJC in the Indy canon. (Not-quite-so-old Indy might have been full of it when he dropped the Pancho Villa connection to Mutt ;)).
To enjoy them to their fullest, you need to practice more 'Suspension of Disbelief', Smiffy.;)

---
Re. "Nosferatu": Check out, "Shadow of the Vampire". It's a fairly recent movie (with a great cast) about the filming of the 1922 classic and it deals with reality vs. fantasy.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
Something like, "Serpent and the Rainbow", might fit. Indy in Haiti!

Like that one! (y)

Stoo said:
Re. "Nosferatu": Check out, "Shadow of the Vampire". It's a fairly recent movie (with a great cast) about the filming of the 1922 classic and it deals with reality vs. fantasy.

Did not like that one. (n)
 
Montana Smith said:
Nosferatu was creepy. Only saw it once, but his shadow creeping up the stairs is something never forgotten. :eek:
Better than expected, a nice surprise. Amazing how no audio lends itself to the atmosphere...
Stoo said:
Re. "Nosferatu": Check out, "Shadow of the Vampire". It's a fairly recent movie (with a great cast) about the filming of the 1922 classic and it deals with reality vs. fantasy.
NOT as good as expected, but not without some redeeming factors. Took a trip to NYC to see Spinal Tap on the silver screen and it was playing in the next theater, glad I didn't bother. The pub was a better choice.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Something occurred to me looking at stills from Masks of Evil.

In 1935 Indy must have had a sense of déjà vu!
There's definitely a "Temple of Doom"-ish tone to that scene. I dig all the supernatural elements in this great episode, especially the Spontaneous Human Combustion bit.:dead:

Speaking of the paranormal: Does Oxley's 'auto writing' fit the category?:confused:
 
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