Why is it "cool" to hate on KOTCS?

Raiders90

Well-known member
My feelings flip flop on KOTCS. I don't view it as a BAD film but I feel the long awaited fourth Indy could've been done better. But I see some on IMDB proclaiming it to be the "WORST MOVIE EVER!", amongst other ridiculous statements. That it isn't a "real Indy movie", etc.

It just seems like it goes beyond a rational dislike for a movie and into some sort of thing where HATING it, literally HATING it is trendy.

I don't understand it and frankly as a diehard Indy fan it upsets me.
 

JP Jones

New member
Believe me, I know how it feels. Those stupid ass comments are from people who think that they can sound very film savvy and sophisticated if they hate on a movie. Especially if George Lucas is invovled. Look at it... if you say "I love that movie" you sound like another average moviegoer. You say " That was a steaming pile of _____" and you sound like you "know what your talking about."

It's just human nature, but your right... it pisses me off!:(
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
It's not cool. It's required and it's tragic that it is so required. Of course using superlatives is stupid, but criticism where it is applicable is perfectly OK. I hate the fact that they deliberately changed the whole tone and character in CS from the trilogy. It was really undaring and thus disappointing.

I do agree with you that unconstructive and negative criticism doesn't help anyone, but it was so disappointing I can understand that hating it may be an initial response until one settles down to attain a more neutral stance and can objectively look at its problems.

Natalie P. would have been more interesting.
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
I think it stemmed from the critics who decided they'd smear the movie with mud, because the concept was somewhat bizarre to them: that a leading actor could return after 19 years to reprise his action role when he's clearly much older. Negative headlines make for catchy headlines.

The media has been so vociferous in its campaign to mock the film that it caught on, making it cool to hate rather than love. If you love the film you stand out, and being different makes you a target for the bullies (many of whom probably don't have a considered opinion of their own). So in the end you have a noisy crowd saying they hate the film, blinded to anything good that may have been in it.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Mickiana said:
All it needs is warranted criticism.

Yes, and unfortunately KOTCS deserves a lot of it. Where it gets out of hand is when the criticism turns into blind hysteria. There are good bits in the movie, but they're overshadowed by the bad.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
I am grateful for your sobering perspective, Montana. I do fall into that emotional trap of wanting to junk the whole thing despite it having some moments. The "overshadowing" definitely occurs for me.
 

Henry W Jones

New member
While it is the worst of the Indy films it is far from the worst movie ever. People are sheep and if enough people say it's bahhhhad the the other sheep follow to be the same. I like a lot of moments in KOTCS and dislike few. But the few parts I dislike I really dislike.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Mickiana said:
I am grateful for your sobering perspective, Montana. I do fall into that emotional trap of wanting to junk the whole thing despite it having some moments. The "overshadowing" definitely occurs for me.

Which makes it all the more frustrating as a missed opportunity. There are some classic feel-good Indy moments, as well as the music, of course. But far too many 'what the ....?' moments!
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Faleel said:
Because of the Star Wars Special Editions and Prequels.

They do give a kickstart to the whole hate thing. The 1997 Special Editions can mark the beginning of a loss of faith in George. Though having recently watched Caravan of Courage and The Battle of Endor, the madness of King George may stem back to 1984.
 

Faleel

New member
Montana Smith said:
They do give a kickstart to the whole hate thing. The 1997 Special Editions can mark the beginning of a loss of faith in George. Though having recently watched Caravan of Courage and The Battle of Endor, the madness of King George may stem back to 1984.
Go back to 1977 and you may be right.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
I think it stemmed from the critics who decided they'd smear the movie with mud, because the concept was somewhat bizarre to them: that a leading actor could return after 19 years to reprise his action role when he's clearly much older. Negative headlines make for catchy headlines.

The media has been so vociferous in its campaign to mock the film that it caught on, making it cool to hate rather than love. If you love the film you stand out, and being different makes you a target for the bullies (many of whom probably don't have a considered opinion of their own). So in the end you have a noisy crowd saying they hate the film, blinded to anything good that may have been in it.

Montana, you're a very smart and insightful guy, but this is just ridiculous nonsense.

Critics "decided" (collectively? individually? Your statement is vague, but implies there was some kind of loosely coordinated effort, which is, of course, laughable) to "smear a movie with mud"?

I dunno, maybe I'm naive, but I still hold that critics (at least professional ones) just write their own opinions and don't just up and decide to "smear" a movie.

And what was the impetus for this smear campaign? Simply that it was an action movie that starred an actor of advancing years? Oh, come now.

These critics thought it would be "headline grabbing" to tar KOTCS? Huh? Again, maybe I'm being naive, but critics generally just tend to write their opinions and accept the fact that the vast majority of the public ignores them no matter which direction their thumbs point.

Again, you make reference to the "media" marching in lockstep in its "campaign" to "bully" those with differing opinions.

Maybe there are segments of online fandom that have behaved in this fashion.

But by using the word "media" you imply the mainstream critical community. In that context, these statements are so absurd and divorced from reality as to be laughable.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
Montana, you're a very smart and insightful guy, but this is just ridiculous nonsense.

Critics "decided" (collectively? individually? Your statement is vague, but implies there was some kind of loosely coordinated effort, which is, of course, laughable) to "smear a movie with mud"?

I dunno, maybe I'm naive, but I still hold that critics (at least professional ones) just write their own opinions and don't just up and decide to "smear" a movie.

And what was the impetus for this smear campaign? Simply that it was an action movie that starred an actor of advancing years? Oh, come now.

These critics thought it would be "headline grabbing" to tar KOTCS? Huh? Again, maybe I'm being naive, but critics generally just tend to write their opinions and accept the fact that the vast majority of the public ignores them no matter which direction their thumbs point.

Again, you make reference to the "media" marching in lockstep in its "campaign" to "bully" those with differing opinions.

Maybe there are segments of online fandom that have behaved in this fashion.

But by using the word "media" you imply the mainstream critical community. In that context, these statements are so absurd and divorced from reality as to be laughable.

Not every critic, but those who decided they would. And there have been plenty of them across the internet following in step. It's simple to mock a movie that appears out of its time. And there is so much to mock in the movie before you come to picking out its good points.

I resisted the concept of old Indy, too. I didn't bother checking it out until the time I had a cheap DVD staring me in the face, and I thought what the hell. The same thing happened with Avatar yesterday, though I'm not sure when or if I'll bother to watch it.

The very concept of KOTCS was unappealing. That makes it easy to be negative from a critical point of view. Enough of them make for a loud negative voice, louder than the positive voice. The bullying stage comes lower down, where all the world's a critic, in places like this. Think how many who voiced their negative opinions too loudly here, were also those that ended up permanently in the banana republic islands (for whatever infraction).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Faleel said:
Go back to 1977 and you may be right.

So you think the last sane movie Lucas made was American Graffiti?

With Indy, we have to be thankful for the controlling influence of Spielberg, which was no longer in effect in 2008 when he himself also jumped on the crazy train.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Montana Smith said:
So you think the last sane movie Lucas made was American Graffiti?

With Indy, we have to be thankful for the controlling influence of Spielberg, which was no longer in effect in 2008 when he himself also jumped on the crazy train.

I can't speak for the fellow poster... but what I'd say is that (IMHO) Lucas has been a fairly consistent movie maker. More success has given him more control, granted (and maybe not always for the best in some cases), but if you look at the production history of Lucas' movies, it's basically the same man... prone to both the brilliant and bizarre ideas. It's not like he got hit on the head in the 90's and came up with the idea of SE's, prequels and KOTCS. ;)

As far as Spielberg is concerned, again I'm much more pragmatic. Lucas and Spielberg had a very symbiotic relationship with the Indy movies. I'd hate to think what Raiders (or similar concept) would have been like without Lucas (probably a syrupy tear jerking love fest), just as much as Raiders needed Spielberg behind the camera to create a movie that was dynamic, snappy and had some genuine emotion. Also, not a surprise I know, but TOD was the biggest Indy disappointment for me... so (IMHO) the combination of the beards has always had the potential to **** things up.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Not every critic, but those who decided they would. And there have been plenty of them across the internet following in step. It's simple to mock a movie that appears out of its time. And there is so much to mock in the movie before you come to picking out its good points.

I think we need to define our terms here. When I say "critic", I'm referring to only legitimate, professional movie critics that work for major publications (whether they be print publications like The New York Times or online only publications like Slate or even a few of the more legit "fan" websites like hitfix or even chud.)

I would refer to anyone else as "commenters" - anyone from enthusiastic bloggers to raveners to anonymous imdb trolls.

I guarantee there isn't a single legitimate movie critic who behaved in the manner you described. Who decided ahead of time they were going to hate on a movie because it was "out of time". Huh? Because movie critics are incapable of handling the concept of a SEQUEL without wanting to mock it? Really? If that's the case, they need to hang up their notebooks, because it's only going to get worse from here on in.

Sorry, but, while everyone is subject to at least some preconceptions going on, I'm going to give those pros the benefit of the doubt that suggest that ALL of them, to a one (well, maybe except for Armond White) does their job well and judges each film on its merits.

There was no critical effort to "bash" Crystal Skull. Quite the contrary, the facts don't even bear out your suppositions - "Crystal Skull" actually has positive scores on both rottentomates and the more stringent, more professional metacritic.



The very concept of KOTCS was unappealing. That makes it easy to be negative from a critical point of view.

This is anecdotal poppycock. To many (myself included), the "very concept" of KOTCS was very appealing indeed. The Indiana Jones franchise was held in extremely high regard by the critical and popular communities and I'd argue (unscientifically, of course) that most people were actually looking forward to the movie. I was desperately hoping to like it, despite my skepticism going in about Lucas and Spielberg's recent output (which, IMO, was sketch at best.)

Enough of them make for a loud negative voice, louder than the positive voice.

What you're talking about here is simple consensus of opinion. When the dust settles, almost every movie has one.

The bullying stage comes lower down, where all the world's a critic, in places like this. Think how many who voiced their negative opinions too loudly here, were also those that ended up permanently in the banana republic islands (for whatever infraction).

Hey, there are obnoxious internet trolls on every website, exhibiting terrible behavior on every single topic under the sun. There are jerks on both sides.

Is there a "louder" contingent of detractors for KOTCS in the commenter community across the world at large? Perhaps. But, I was actually quite surprised the movie has far, far more many fans (at least on this site) than I would have initially guessed. There are even a few occasions where I felt those defenders took things too far.

Your mileage may vary, of course. The internet is too vast and too confusing and chaotic a place to really be able to distill anything other than the broadest trends (and even then, you'll always find huge swaths of dissenters.)

But in terms of the behavior of pro critics, I think you couldn't be more wrong.
 

Darth Vile

New member
I have to say that, then and now, my perception is that the media/critics were quite positive towards KOTCS. Certainly most of the reviews I read were positive or at worst perhaps unmoved by the movie... I didn't see that many bad reviews (only the ones that Rocket kindly highlighted).
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Lance Quazar said:
I think we need to define our terms here. When I say "critic", I'm referring to only legitimate, professional movie critics that work for major publications (whether they be print publications like The New York Times or online only publications like Slate or even a few of the more legit "fan" websites like hitfix or even chud.)

Indeed. The most vociferous negative critics have been the self-stlyed ones on the net - where everyone and their dog can be their own publisher and broadcaster.

It's been cool to jump on the negative bandwagon, without providing a balanced review.

I'm here to stir the pot on this one.

Why did KOTCS get a Razzie? Journalists, cinema fans, and film professionals pay at least $35 to have their chance to vote.


29th Annual Golden Raspberry (Razzie©) Award ?Winners?

Worst Prequel,Remake, Rip-off or Sequel
(Combined Category for 2008):

Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of The Crystal Skull


The year?s third-biggest grossing (and most disappointing) movie INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL ?won? as Worst Prequel, Remake, Rip-Off or Sequel.
http://www.razzies.com/history/08release.asp


'They have no excuse to be as bad as they are'


The Golden Raspberry awards aren't just a refreshing antidote to the Oscars, they can help sell films too. John Marrs talks to the Razzies' founder, John Wilson

John Marrs
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 25 February 2009 12.22 GMT

"Cremating cinematic crap for 29 years" may not be a motto the Academy Awards will be clamouring to use any time soon, but it works just fine for the Razzies.

Designed as the antithesis to the Oscars, the Golden Raspberry Award Foundation has been mocking Hollywood's below-par cinematic output for almost three decades.

Created by John Wilson in 1980 as a whimsical finish to his annual Oscars party, word of mouth has enabled it to become an annual fixture on the awards calendar ? albeit one that few actors either appreciate or attend. As one-time Razzies nominee Michael Caine once put it: "They're the pustule on the butt of Hollywood."

"We are promoting something the industry does not appreciate," explains an unrepentant Wilson, 54, a Los Angeles-based freelance film trailer copywriter. "They try and ignore us like a fart in a church. We focus on big-budget, big-name, well-known movies because they have no excuse to be as bad as they are."

A shortlist of these bad films are decided upon by some 650 paid-up Razzie members in 19 countries ? including a handful of celebrities Wilson won't name. This year, it culminated in a ceremony on 21 February, the day before the Academy Awards, with Mike Myers's Love Guru emerging as the big, erm, winner.

"I like to think we can take credit for some performers who've won a Razzie and then never graced the screen again," says Wilson. "Sofia Coppola received the most votes ever from members for The Godfather: Part III and never appeared in another film. So she turned to writing and directing and won an Oscar for Lost in Translation.

"We also saved Michael Caine's career. He was nominated for Jaws 4 and he hasn't done anything truly wretched since," he notes.

But the lampooning and lambasting of celluloid duds can often have an unexpected side-effect ? they can reignite a spark of interest in the object of a Razzie's ridicule. "Showgirls was rereleased by its studio, who promoted it on their posters as the winner of an unprecedented seven Razzies," says Wilson. "And one of the 27 writers of Catwoman ? which went home with four awards ? attended the Razzies and thanked us for boosting its DVD sales."

"Winning a Razzie probably boosts DVD rentals because of the curiosity factor," says Stuart Kemp, the Hollywood Reporter's UK bureau chief. "People will actually want to see just how bad it was to merit a Razzie."

Helen Cowley, editor of DVD rental subscription service LOVEFiLM, agrees. "The Razzies make people aware of films they wouldn't have gone to the cinema to see," she explains. "Gigli (nine nominations, six wins) was absolutely huge for us ? if subscribers hadn't wasted £10 to see it at the cinema, they rented it from us. The Razzies get people taking about films."

Halle Berry's attendance at the 2005 Golden Raspberry awards ceremony (she was named worst actress for Catwoman, three years after winning a best actress Oscar for Monster's Ball) was a landmark Razzie moment.

"Her speech was a parody of her Oscar speech ? it was priceless," says Wilson. "Halle is the perfect example of how to deal with winning a Razzie ? admit it, embrace it, enjoy it and move on. Don't get irritable, ignore it or dismiss it as irrelevant."

"Winning [a Razzie] should be seen as a cool badge of honour," says Ted Casablanca, celebrity gossip columnist from E! News. "It's a mistake for an actor not to endorse it. Razzies aren't a kiss of death for a career ? it puts actors who may have slipped people's minds back on the map. It's a lot worse being forgotten about."

But not all actors are quite as amenable as Halle. Sylvester Stallone, nominated a record 30 times, reportedly left a voicemail on Wilson's answerphone, asking why he was picking on him. And Ben Affleck broke his award live on TV when presented with it.

But Wilson denies the Razzies do any harm. "We're funny, not cruel," he says, "but I guess if you win one, you probably think we're horrible. We poke fun; we're the banana peel on the floor, not the slap in the face. We're not saying '**** you'; we're asking 'why?'. Oscar night is all about air-kissing and back-slapping, so it terrifies the industry that there are people like us out there."

But Stuart Kemp downplays the Razzies effect in Tinseltown. "Hollywood doesn't take an award celebrating failure seriously at all," he says. "As a film community, it takes the Oscars, the Golden Globes and the Guild awards seriously because those nods celebrate craft and skills.

"Any industry is about the people who operate in it and for it, so it's not a bad thing to expect people to have a sense of humour. But people working in the movies take their responsibility to produce good work seriously. So when it goes wrong, some are offended by ridicule," continues Kemp.

Wilson adds: "Sally Field famously said during her 1979 Oscar speech: 'You like me, you really like me!' We're saying to our winners, 'We don't like you, we really don't like you.'"

After the self-congratulatory scenes of Sunday night, there is, undeniably, some value in that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/feb/24/razzies-interview-oscars
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
Why is it 'cool' to hate on KOTCS?
...
It just seems like it goes beyond a rational dislike for a movie and into some sort of thing where HATING it, literally HATING it is trendy.
Is it 'cool', though? Trendy doesn't necessarily equal cool. (Anyone remember duck shoes? Trendy? Yes. Cool? NO!)

sporto-dsw-shoes-boots-aroostic-weatherproof-duck-shoe.jpg

Faleel said:
Because of the Star Wars Special Editions and Prequels.
Good answer, Faleel! That's a large factor, indeed.
Montana Smith said:
Think how many who voiced their negative opinions too loudly here, were also those that ended up permanently in the banana republic islands (for whatever infraction).
True. It's also worth noting that each of those now-banned, loudest "Skull" haters were all fans of "The Dark Night".

This relates to another thread of Raiders112390's which is similar: Are/were the Batman fans responsible for a lot of the hate?
 
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