Monkey King: strip it for parts?

Attila the Professor

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Darth Zoidberg had a question on another thread that got me thinking.

DARTH ZOIDBERG said:
could the Monkey king still work for say Indy 5?

Yes and no. It's racial and gender politics are a bit of a mess and much of its interesting material ended in Last Crusade or elsewhere (speedboat chase, tank chase, eternal life, <I>Attack of the Clones</I>'s colosseum sequence).

But with that said, there's good stuff. River pirates with a hideout behind a waterfall. The haunted castle opening, which I think we've a very good chance of seeing a version of. A Katherine Hepburn-esque academic. And, perhaps most of all, an interesting new environment in sub-Saharan Africa and mythology drawn from a prominent piece of Chinese lore. And actually, the night-time, under docks speedboat sequence could take a second go, <I>sans</I> propeller ending.

While I don't see Spielberg wanting to film in Africa, it's certainly uncharted territory for the Indy films. Heck, even for the Indy games and novels. The huge exception of Young Indy aside (the series is telling very different kinds of stories than anything with Indy as an adult), have any of the most high-profile Indy stories gone anywhere further south on that continent than the Sudan? Obviously, that could be flying straight into Haggard territory, among Indy's diciest progenitors, but I don't think that can't be finessed.

Possibly more problematic is the idea of telling a story about Chinese mythology in Africa, though a loose-handed blending of cultural sources and locations has always been an element of the how these stories are told. (Egypt and Mosaic stuff is pretty natural; El Dorado, crystal skulls, and aliens is a bigger jump, but no less valid.) Of course, Sun Wukong did go west. You don't want Africa to be just scenery, with the sort of third-world window dressing we've seen in, say, the recent <I>Casino Royale</I> and <I>Inception</I>.

The other thing here, of course, is that the China market's big now. Filming there isn't just possible, as it was the case when Indy II was made, it's practically become <I>de rigueur in big budget action films.
 

Toht's Arm

Active member
The other thing here, of course, is that the China market's big now. Filming there isn't just possible, as it was the case when Indy II was made, it's practically become de rigueur in big budget action films.

The film being specifically tailored for the Chinese market seems VERY likely. That would, of course, limit the the type of stuff that could be included though.

But surely the chance of Short Round making an adult appearance would work in this regard. (I suspect they'd recast...)

With The Monkey King, you're right that there is still some salvageable stuff in there. (But also a lot of offensive stuff that they surely wouldn't touch - some fairly unambiguous racism, not to mention the whole obsessed student's "hilarious" suicide attempt...).

Haunted castle? Yeah, I'm up for that!
 

Henry Jones VII

Active member
Speaking for myself, after only reading that initial part of the "Monkey King" script, I would love if the movie opened with that Haunted Castle sequence. It's very Indiana Jones, and it would be a terrific way to open Ford's last adventure as Indy.
 

seasider

Active member
Personally, I'd rather they just toss any previous ideas from rejected scripts and just start fresh with a new story.
 

Lao_Che

Active member
seasider said:
Personally, I'd rather they just toss any previous ideas from rejected scripts and just start fresh with a new story.

Repurposing ideas from older scripts into new stories has been a thing since Temple of Doom though.
 

Lao_Che

Active member
I'd hope a haunted castle would have some element of doubt as to its paranormal activity.

Like the shadow of a man takes the shape of a wolf or something in flickering candlelight. Not like an opaque headless baron floating through walls.

Or transplant the castle to Japan and not based on European designs.
 

Attila the Professor

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Lao_Che said:
Or transplant the castle to Japan and not based on European designs.

Hmm...interesting thought.

kwaidan_02.jpg


I certainly don't see any reason why the castle sequence should need to be in Scotland. After the two most recent installments in the series were so Euro- and America-centric, it'd be nice to break the habit from the word go.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Wasn't Monkey King the one with the fight over the lit fuse; where Indy's trying to put the fuse out and the baddie keeps re-lighting it, inbetween the both of them trading blows? Which of course found its way into the Tintin movie: so that part's already been stripped! :)
 

Attila the Professor

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Getting up to speed...

emtiem said:
Wasn't Monkey King the one with the fight over the lit fuse; where Indy's trying to put the fuse out and the baddie keeps re-lighting it, inbetween the both of them trading blows? Which of course found its way into the Tintin movie: so that part's already been stripped! :)

No, that was Darabont's final draft for <I>Indiana Jones and the City of the Gods</I>.

Fair enough, though - a refresher course may be in order.

Our old Raiders of the Lost Drafts series gives a very solid rundown on the script.

Mental Floss has a briefer take.

And if you're of a mind to, there's also the full script.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Attila the Professor said:
No, that was Darabont's final draft for <I>Indiana Jones and the City of the Gods</I>.

Fair enough, though - a refresher course may be in order.

Our old Raiders of the Lost Drafts series gives a very solid rundown on the script.


Yeah; here's an extract from that link:
"A huge (and well-choreographed) battle begins, involving pygmies, pirates, birds, gorillas, Nazis, Ewoks, Gungans (no, scratch those last two!) and a private battle between Indy and Gutterbuhg, who has acquired a new mechanical arm, one that shoots bolts of electricity! The Nazis plant a huge pile of dynamite in the city, intending to destroy it, and the fuse is suspense fully lit, put out, and relit a number of times before Indy puts it out, seconds from disaster, with his bullwhip."


Attila the Professor said:
And if you're of a mind to, there's also the full script.


INT. CITY
The Nazis have planted an enormous PILE OF DYNAMITE on the palace
stairs. Enough to DESTROY the entire city. The T.N.T. is attached to a
LONG FUSE, that stretches hundreds of feet, over VARIOUS SECTIONS of
the city. The Nazis LIGHT the fuse end. It SPARKS. IGNITES. BURNING
FAST. The Nazis TURN and RUN.
Gutterbuhg continues to CHASE Indiana. BLASTS OF ELECTRICITY SHOOT from
the Nazi's arm. Indy DUCKS... DODGES... AVOIDING the electrical jolts.
Indy SPINS around a building corner. He spots the BURNING FUSE. It
STRETCHES along the ground, moving up OVER a wooden fence. Indy DIVES
and STOMPS OUT the fuse. But Gutterbuhg, who is directly behind Indy,
RELIGHTS the fuse with a shot of electricity. Before Indy has a chance
to stop the fuse...Gutterbuhg AIMS at Indy. Indy LEAPS OVER the fence.
Gutterbuhg SHOOTS. The fence is SPLINTERED by the powerful electrical
blast.
Indiana runs into a small ALLEYWAY. The burning fuse STRETCHES up along
the alley wall, moving to the ROOFTOP. Indy begins to climb the ancient
golden bricks that PROTRUDE from the wall. TOWARD the roof. Gutterbuhg
APPEARS. He SHOOTS at Indiana, who avoids the blast by LEAPING onto the
roof. Gutterbuhg hurriedly begins to CLIMB the wall. FOLLOWING Indiana.
EXT. ROOFTOP
Gutterbuhg ARRIVES at the top. He LOOKS around. There is NO SIGN of
Indy. But the fuse RESTS at the roof's edge. UNLIT. Gutterbuhg RESTARTS
the fuse. At that moment, Indiana LEAPS OUT from inside of the stone
smokestack. He JUMPS the unsuspecting Gutterbuhg. They TUMBLE and FALL
OFF the rooftop edge.
Indiana and Gutterbuhg HIT the ground. They continue to STRUGGLE...
FIGHT...as the fuse BURNS in front of them. It SPEEDS toward the pile
of dynamite. Less than FIFTY FEET AHEAD. Still wrestling with
Gutterbuhg, Indy ROLLS toward the fuse. Indy reaches out and STOPS THE
FUSE with his hand. But Gutterbuhg MOVES FAST. Again, the Nazi RELIGHTS
the fuse.
102.
Indy suddenly LEAPS to his feet. He RUNS OFF SCREEN. Gutterbuhg
FOLLOWS. The fuse continues to BURN. Moving CLOSER...CLOSER...to the
dynamite.
Indiana runs to a CLUSTER OF TREES. He comes to an abrupt stop, between
TWO TREES. Gutterbuhg is UPON HIM. The Nazi PAUSES. Only a FEW FEET
from Indy. Gutterbuhg POINTS his arm at Indy. A CLEAR SHOT. Gutterbuhg
SMILES. Indiana is TRAPPED.
THE FUSE is now only a FEW FEET from the dynamite. It will BLOW at any
second!




Perhaps a refresher course may be in order? ;)
 
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Attila the Professor

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emtiem said:
Perhaps a refresher course may be in order? ;)

Haha, indeed. Clearly I've been working purely from memory myself. (And, of course, its presence in Darabont's script, in slightly altered form - I think it's a line of gunpowder, instead of a fuse - as a way station on the way to Tintin suggests that that's no coincidence.)
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Yes, I wonder how the ownership of those concepts work? Would Columbus have a valid legal objection if he said he came up with it after seeing it in Tintin? Was it always Spielberg's idea? Does he have to prove that? Or does Columbus just sign something which says every idea in the script belongs to Paramount whether they use it in that movie or even another one if they want? If Tintin wasn't a Paramount movie would he still have done that scene?

Attila the Professor said:
its presence in Darabont's script, in slightly altered form - I think it's a line of gunpowder, instead of a fuse

I don't recall that at all: are you sure? They get tied to some barrels and there's a burning fuse they can't put out but I don't remember a fight over one.
 
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Finn

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emtiem said:
Yes, I wonder how the ownership of those concepts work? Would Columbus have a valid legal objection if he said he came up with it after seeing it in Tintin?
To put it short and simply: No.

And thank the maker copyright laws don't work like that.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
Well sometimes they certainly do, but I'm just curious how it works when something a writer comes up with for a film is used in another totally different film which he didn't write for.
 

Finn

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emtiem said:
Well sometimes they certainly do, but I'm just curious how it works when something a writer comes up with for a film is used in another totally different film which he didn't write for.
No, they don't. Not like this. To suggest otherwise is a folly. A writer has no right to make claims like that if one of his ideas finds its way into another work in an altered form. A singular idea is not an independent piece in itself or even an IP like some general setting and the characters within it. It's a trope. And one can't copyright tropes.

The courts would have time to do nothing else but process copyright lawsuits if the laws really worked like that.
 

emtiem

Well-known member
They really have done in the past: I've worked on entertainment properties where the writer owns the concept/character and must be paid royalties despite the concept being generated for a series they don't own as a freelancer. To pretend that doesn't, or rather hasn't happened is where the real folly is! :) My work tonight, by coincidence, includes adding a copyright line onto some artwork I've generated stating exactly that- that the idea depicted belongs to these writers etc.

Yes, I would expect that Hollywood movies are very well insured against that happening, but I just wonder how exactly. And no, it's not a trope; it's identifiably an idea- writers come up with ideas, it's pretty much all they do, and they get paid for it. If a comedy writer writes a joke and sees it in another script it's not a 'trope'; it's something they've written. A script is a series of original ideas; if we can tell that this scene came from Monkey King then the writer certainly can.
 

Finn

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Staff member
emtiem said:
They really have done in the past: I've worked on entertainment properties where the writer owns the concept/character and must be paid royalties despite the concept being generated for a series they don't own as a freelancer.
I've a feeling we're talking apples and oranges here. I said myself, a singular idea is not the same as using a character or some setting, which you are clearly alluding to here. Those are works that can be copyrighted. A simple idea can't.

Trust me: If Chris Columbus wrote a scene where Indy battles a Nazi over a trail of blazing gunpowder and later sees Captain Haddock do the same with some pirate, he can't take anyone to court over that. To suggest an idea like that can be claimed ownership, or think it's analogous with some work that can be copyrighted is a pretty big folly.

It's pretty much the same as suggesting that you can't film a scene where somebody jumps from a plane without a parachute only to catch one midair because James Bond already did that, or suggest that Lucas owns the intellectual rights to all mine cart chases, or, or... well, you get the idea. If things were like that, the guy who came up with the basic concept of "student seduces professor" could just retire from royalties all the planet's porn production companies owe him.
 
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