TheRaider.net
 

Go Back   The Raven > The Films > Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-29-2016, 07:12 PM   #1
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,740
Do we know who was responsible for:

I love KOTCS. I believe it is a good film. However, as with EVERY film, and every film in the Indy series, it has flaws. My question is, do we know for certain who was responsible for those flaws? The Nuclear Fridge scene has been confirmed as something Spielberg wanted in a film as early as the early 1980s, and we know Lucas wanted the aliens/interdimensional beings..But what about?:

1) The prairie dogs?
2) Mutt swinging on the vines/the whole monkey scene?
3) Mutt being hit in the crotch?

Whose ideas were those? Do we have any idea about who specifically wanted those in? Given the Raiders story conference (wherein Spielberg wants Indy to use the whip to pull some guy's pants down or grab himself a beer), I'd wager #3 was his idea. I can imagine 2 being Lucas'.

What about you guys? What do you think? What do we know?
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 07:58 PM   #2
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,368
It's not clear, but the way he speaks of it Spielberg may be responsible for the gopher, and if I had to guess the rest as well.

Those are not the real flaws of the movie.
Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 01:10 PM   #3
Lao_Che
IndyFan
 
Lao_Che's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 359
The Tarzan bit could be Lucas considering it's in Return of the Jedi as well.
Lao_Che is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 01:23 PM   #4
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,368
There's vine-swinging in Raiders too, but that isn't really the point. The beef with Crystal Skull's version is that the whole thing is essentially animation...Shia is the only live action component in those ugly canopy shots. Not to mention how weightless his movements look, the impossibility that he could have caught up to the vehicles that way, and the idea that he becomes King of the Monkeys in the span of three seconds.

I don't think the idea of having Mutt swing like Tarzan is some atrocity, it's more that they turned the idea up to eleven and basically made its execution the province of ILM. You can't shrug it off as the fun little moment it should have been when it's pushed to such a distracting extreme. It also raises the question of when employing special effects is called for. It's one thing to use those tools to simulate a mushroom cloud, but the idea of using it so liberally in service of an idea so unnecessary and silly is a bit of an insult in the context of a franchise where the action has always been so proudly practical.

Like I said though, in the scheme of things that scene is one of the least objectionable things in this movie. It's more a symptom than the disease.
Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 02:33 PM   #5
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
There's vine-swinging in Raiders too, but that isn't really the point.

Last Crusade too. But it's not for the point of travel...it's to solve a simple problem of distance.

Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 05:09 PM   #6
Lao_Che
IndyFan
 
Lao_Che's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 359
I thought the point of the thread was attributing blame/credit.

I'm not inherently against the idea of Mutt of the Apes. Was it Kooshmeister around these parts who made a version of the scene with the swinging edited out so that Mutt suddenly jumps out of the trees with the monkeys at Spalko? I liked that.

I'd have to go back and check but isn't that part of the cliffside a hairpin turn? So Mutt is cutting across rather than somehow keeping up with the vehicles.
Lao_Che is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 05:12 PM   #7
Pale Horse
Moderator
 
Pale Horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: L.A.
Posts: 6,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao_Che
...Was it Kooshmeister around these parts who made a version of the scene with the swinging edited out so that Mutt suddenly jumps out of the trees with the monkeys at Spalko?

Where's are archiver? Someone has to find this.
Pale Horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 05:14 PM   #8
The Man
IndyFan
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mola Ram School Of Cardiology
Posts: 5,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
Those are not the real flaws of the movie.

The sinker for me was the appalling "wholesome family-friendly humour" that ruined the second hour. People whinge about the aliens element, but apart from the withering amounts of exposition which attempted to sell the Skull(s), they weren't the fundamental problem. Did they make the action sequences range from perfunctory to embarrassing? Nope. Were they responsible for the sidekick surfeit? Nope. Apart from the climactic reveal of the saucer (which was actually quality work by ILM), were they to blame for the otherwise jarring CG (of varying quality by ILM)? Hmmmm...
The Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 05:23 PM   #9
Attila the Professor
Moderator
 
Attila the Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 6,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
The sinker for me was the appalling "wholesome family-friendly humour" that ruined the second hour. People whinge about the aliens element, but apart from the withering amounts of exposition which attempted to sell the Skull(s), they weren't the fundamental problem. Did they make the action sequences range from perfunctory to embarrassing? Nope. Were they responsible for the sidekick surfeit? Nope. Apart from the climactic reveal of the saucer (which was actually quality work by ILM), were they to blame for the otherwise jarring CG (of varying quality by ILM)? Hmmmm...

But the family elements of the latter half are part and parcel of what I see as one of the key pieces of Udvarnoky's critique, which is that the script has an extraordinarily short attention span, and the concerns of the first half (Indy's under suspicion in a brave new world!) are not carried through to the second half (Indy's reunited with his family and doesn't have time to actually oppose the bad guys!).

I think the three of us - and, honestly, a bunch of us here - all agree that aliens aren't the problem. But an overemphasis on family themes? There's hardly a breath of air between Lucas and Spielberg on that point.
Attila the Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 05:34 PM   #10
The Man
IndyFan
 
The Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Mola Ram School Of Cardiology
Posts: 5,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
There's hardly a breath of air between Lucas and Spielberg on that point.

Haven't watched the extras in many a moon, but didn't George prefer the idea of a daughter for Indy? That would have provided a far richer, less predictable dynamic between both characters. Shia gets too much sh!t hurled at him, but he played the role as well as possible. The role's gender may have been the problematic element.
The Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 08:42 PM   #11
Attila the Professor
Moderator
 
Attila the Professor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: United States
Posts: 6,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man
Haven't watched the extras in many a moon, but didn't George prefer the idea of a daughter for Indy? That would have provided a far richer, less predictable dynamic between both characters. Shia gets too much sh!t hurled at him, but he played the role as well as possible. The role's gender may have been the problematic element.

Curiously, the only member of the team I'm finding speaking up for the idea of a daughter on our main site is Shia.

Quote:
MTV: Not even from your perspective, but from a fan's perspective, because after Last Crusade, having a son seems like the next step for Indiana Jones.

LaBeouf: "Right, but does it have to be a son? Wouldn't it be cooler if it was a daughter? I think that the interaction between, like, let's say it was Natalie Portman, and Harrison Ford having to deal with a woman. It could be fun to see him taking pointers from a woman. ... As a film lover I'm saying that could be fun to watch. If it were a son, I don't know if that would take away some of the spark of Indy. I would love to be a part of it, but I'm not yet."

MTV: Yet?

LaBeouf: "Yeah, yet. 'Cause you don't know what's happened. If a rumor's gone this far. ... I'm sure Spielberg's read Variety."

There are also old rumors about Natalie Portman expressing her interest in the role back in 2001 or 2002. And in 2002, we get this:

Quote:
Coming Attractions reported today that the Dutch TV magazine Vara had a brief interview with George Lucas discussing his latest Attack of the Clones. Vara's interviewer couldn't resist asking about Indiana Jones 4 and George said this: "Spielberg is directing, and Indiana will have a son."

Quick skim of the Raven archives for "daughter" on the KotCS table (formerly the Indy IV table) doesn't produce any hard evidence, at least to my eyes. Was there maybe something about a tween aged daughter? Anyone with a better memory on this point? Mordy?

Edited to add:
Here's something from the Indy wiki, with the accompanying citation attributing the info to Rinzler's Complete Making of Indiana Jones book.

Quote:
During development of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Frank Darabont's script involved Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood having a 13-year-old daughter. However, Spielberg objected to the idea, finding it too similar to The Lost World: Jurassic Park.

Our version of Darabont's script doesn't have that character, of course. So we're looking at either Lucas or Darabont as the source for a daughter idea in the particular instance of the first draft, and considering the script was commissioned to include a whole bunch of familiar ideas (late 1950s, Red Scare, aliens, UFOs, Soviet agents, army ants, a Tarzan swing, a rocket-sled, and a nuked fridge), it seems plausible that Lucas asked for the daughter's inclusion too.

Last edited by Attila the Professor : 03-31-2016 at 08:50 PM.
Attila the Professor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 11:49 PM   #12
Raiders112390
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
But the family elements of the latter half are part and parcel of what I see as one of the key pieces of Udvarnoky's critique, which is that the script has an extraordinarily short attention span, and the concerns of the first half (Indy's under suspicion in a brave new world!) are not carried through to the second half (Indy's reunited with his family and doesn't have time to actually oppose the bad guys!).

I think the three of us - and, honestly, a bunch of us here - all agree that aliens aren't the problem. But an overemphasis on family themes? There's hardly a breath of air between Lucas and Spielberg on that point.

I'd argue that even the emphasis on family isn't the main issue here.

The issues are such for me:

They bring up Indy's older age - but play it for yucks. Here was a chance to do something profound - something akin to what Last Crusade did. But it's played for cheap goofs.

Shia stealing scenes where Ford should've been shining.

The Mega-Happy Ending. Indy is cleared of all suspicion by the FBI, who pretty much brand him a traitor earlier in the film - How? And he's not only reinstated at Marshall College, but promoted to Assistant Dean. Why? These plot threads are left hanging - and seem rushed as a result. The film has a lot of great ideas and themes at play (Family, Age, Changing Times, Fathers and Sons) but fails to really develop any of these themes significantly or in any truly meaningful way.

The middle act needed a good, Ford driven action sequence.

The aliens should never have been conclusively shown to be such on screen. The script handles the ending so much better. You either go full Sci-Fi, like Saucermen from Mars, or only hint at it.

More blood and guts was needed. Again, in the script, Spalko's demise is WONDERFUL. But someone - Lucas? Spielberg? got a little squeamish with regard to blood and guts.

Those are my only qualms with the film. It's a B-list middle child sibling in a family of A-grade older siblings.
Raiders112390 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 03:09 PM   #13
Stoo
IndyFan
 
Stoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Neuchâtel, Switzerland (Canadian from Montreal)
Posts: 7,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
1) The prairie dogs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
It's not clear, but the way he speaks of it Spielberg may be responsible for the gopher, and if I had to guess the rest as well.
Those cuddly critters were, indeed, Spielberg's idea (contrary to popular belief). Check out this thread from 2008:

Prairie dogs - who's to blame? A great mystery - solved.
Stoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2016, 12:56 PM   #14
Kooshmeister
IndyFan
 
Kooshmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
Where's are archiver? Someone has to find this.

It was indeed me, and, sadly, the video is long gone. The YouTube account which had it got closed, and this past December, I had to wipe my entire computer, losing virtually everything from '06 onward. Sorry, guys.

I did it because I found that Mutt swinging on the vines interrupted the flow of the chase along the cliff, so I killed two monkeys with one giant ant pile, and cut the swinging out, so that the scene of the two vehicles smashing into one another along the cliff edge is one uninterrupted sequence, so that when Spalko says "Do Svidaniya, Dr. Jones," Mutt leaping out of the jungle is a surprise and not something we're expecting. Sort of a "Where did he come from?" moment.

Perhaps still a little difficult to swallow, but less silly, and keeps the rhythm of the cliff sequence unbroken.

I'm sure it can be made again, it's an easy edit.

Last edited by Kooshmeister : 05-22-2016 at 01:06 PM.
Kooshmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2016, 11:04 PM   #15
Violet
Moderator Emeritus
 
Violet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Host City of the 2018 Commonwealth Games, Australia
Posts: 3,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
Curiously, the only member of the team I'm finding speaking up for the idea of a daughter on our main site is Shia.

There are also old rumors about Natalie Portman expressing her interest in the role back in 2001 or 2002. And in 2002, we get this:

Quick skim of the Raven archives for "daughter" on the KotCS table (formerly the Indy IV table) doesn't produce any hard evidence, at least to my eyes. Was there maybe something about a tween aged daughter? Anyone with a better memory on this point? Mordy?

Edited to add:
Here's something from the Indy wiki, with the accompanying citation attributing the info to Rinzler's Complete Making of Indiana Jones book.

Our version of Darabont's script doesn't have that character, of course. So we're looking at either Lucas or Darabont as the source for a daughter idea in the particular instance of the first draft, and considering the script was commissioned to include a whole bunch of familiar ideas (late 1950s, Red Scare, aliens, UFOs, Soviet agents, army ants, a Tarzan swing, a rocket-sled, and a nuked fridge), it seems plausible that Lucas asked for the daughter's inclusion too.

If anyone has the original KOTCS dvd it's actually in special features where George Lucas states it was a daughter at the start but it was Spielberg who wanted the kid to be a boy in order to play on the father/son dynamic from LC. Unfortunately this particular special feature didn't make it on to the new bluray set for whatever reason. There were rumours that the daughter was supposed to have been Indy's student who later gets revealed to be Marion's daughter and subsequently Indy's.

As for the tween, you may be thinking of the original mini Marion character from TOD's early development stage. That I read in one of George Lucas' biographies.
Violet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2016, 11:50 AM   #16
Udvarnoky
IndyFan
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,368
That the son was once a daughter is known, but it's not clear at what point in the process this was the case. Wikipedia claims Darabont's script had it, which doesn't shake hands with the draft we have, but perhaps it was true in an earlier one. Perhaps there was a daughter in the Nathanson drafts.
Udvarnoky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2016, 09:54 PM   #17
Dr.Jonesy
IndyFan
 
Dr.Jonesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Akator
Posts: 778
I can't believe people actually took such issue with some prairie dogs who were around for 1.5 seconds.

I didn't even notice the Mutt nut-shot on the first viewing, either.

Such silly little things to complain about. Sheesh.
Dr.Jonesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:27 AM.