The Ark: "It is not of this EARTH"
- Thread starter Major West
- Start date
Kooshmeister
New member
indyfan85 said:
Why is "aliens did it" any more of a copout than "this or that god did it?"
indyfan85
New member
I think that some things are best left unexplained or left up to the viewer to decide, sure you could say it was aliens all along but I doubt thats what the filmmakers had in mind, at all, when they were making Raiders. I like that that the Indy movies show us mysterious powers revolving around these ancient artifacts, and while you & Indy do witness an incredible event it is for the most part unexplained (aside from KOTCS of course) and in my opinion it works the best that way
Last edited:
Montana Smith
Active member
indyfan85 said:
It was at least in Lucas' mind in 1978, and 30 years later he was able to overpower Spielberg and actually get it on film.
IAdventurer01
Well-known member
I'm in the camp that the line is merely voicing Sallah's opinion. He is a man who is religious and is stating. "Hey, this is God's stuff. Should we really be messing with it?" In my mind, it's not even the first time the line is said in the film. It's just Sallah's parallel to Marcus's, "It's like nothing you've gone after before."
From a film development standpoint, it shows the character's concern over the unknown object and builds trepidation of the power and nature of the thing our beloved hero is fighting so hard to obtain.
From a film development standpoint, it shows the character's concern over the unknown object and builds trepidation of the power and nature of the thing our beloved hero is fighting so hard to obtain.
Major West said:
You're entitled to believe as you will, but a blanket statement like that...look, there's 4 ways to cut this cake: 1) A man who believes there's a heaven only to find out there isn't one, pity him because he wasted his life on a dream and probably led others to do the same (all-time biggest loser award). 2) A man who believes there is no heaven and finds out there is when he dies, pity him the same because while he may be surprised, he may also have just lost the only opportunity (his life) to learn how one enters into it (a close second). 3) The man who does not believe in heaven and finds out there is no heaven after all, well, it is what it is...that is, it's over. 4) Lastly, the man who believes there is a heaven and finds it upon dying, hopefully, he figured out how to enter in.
Does it sound like a gamble? Never said it wasn't.
Another pie piece, for philosophy sake...
5) A 'man' who believes that heaven could only be determined after death, upon which he finds out that 'heaven' was actually with him, before death, and now he's lost it.
5) A 'man' who believes that heaven could only be determined after death, upon which he finds out that 'heaven' was actually with him, before death, and now he's lost it.
Major West said:Something that stood out for me on my last viewing of the film. Sallahs line about the Ark not being of this Earth. Perhaps Raiders is more like KOTCS than people think.
They share the theme of the artifact in question being not of human origin. That's about as far as it goes. Oh, and they both had the Ark of the Covenant in them. Otherwise, no.
Indy's brother
New member
Heaven/the christian God, Kali, Jesus, Aliens, they are all what you make of them. None have been proven, and a person's opinion on these matters is not proof, either. Your world view (which is to say your "other-worldly" view) is less important than the journey it takes you on in life. That is kind of a theme to these movies.
Not to be concerned, though. The blu-ray release of the OT will undoubtedly have some of George's modernized tinkering in them.....I for one hope that he digitally puts alien faces on the spirits floating out of the ark and that will clear things up for everyone.
In all seriousness, concerning the tone of these movies and their unearthly implications, KOTCS is the only one where the supernatural explanation was put completely in view of the audience. Which, to be perfectly clear, means that we did not see God, Kali, or Jesus in the OT. But we did see an Alien. No room for questioning. Which, in hindsight, is another chink in KOTC's armor.
If GL was going to intentionally make an alien connection to ROTLA, KOTCS was his big opportunity, and he didn't do it.
Not to be concerned, though. The blu-ray release of the OT will undoubtedly have some of George's modernized tinkering in them.....I for one hope that he digitally puts alien faces on the spirits floating out of the ark and that will clear things up for everyone.
In all seriousness, concerning the tone of these movies and their unearthly implications, KOTCS is the only one where the supernatural explanation was put completely in view of the audience. Which, to be perfectly clear, means that we did not see God, Kali, or Jesus in the OT. But we did see an Alien. No room for questioning. Which, in hindsight, is another chink in KOTC's armor.
If GL was going to intentionally make an alien connection to ROTLA, KOTCS was his big opportunity, and he didn't do it.
chicago103
Member
Indy's brother said:Heaven/the christian God, Kali, Jesus, Aliens, they are all what you make of them. None have been proven, and a person's opinion on these matters is not proof, either. Your world view (which is to say your "other-worldly" view) is less important than the journey it takes you on in life. That is kind of a theme to these movies.
Not to be concerned, though. The blu-ray release of the OT will undoubtedly have some of George's modernized tinkering in them.....I for one hope that he digitally puts alien faces on the spirits floating out of the ark and that will clear things up for everyone.
In all seriousness, concerning the tone of these movies and their unearthly implications, KOTCS is the only one where the supernatural explanation was put completely in view of the audience. Which, to be perfectly clear, means that we did not see God, Kali, or Jesus in the OT. But we did see an Alien. No room for questioning. Which, in hindsight, is another chink in KOTC's armor.
If GL was going to intentionally make an alien connection to ROTLA, KOTCS was his big opportunity, and he didn't do it.
Just to play devil's advocate in KOTCS we saw the image of what is typically associated as an alien as in an extraterrestrial. Oxley said they were "transdimensional beings" but how did he know that for sure? Did he read a text? Did he go through a portal to another dimension himself? It just seemed odd to me that he said that without any explanation as to how he came to that conclusion. Maybe the KOTCS beings really are supernatural beings, afterall wouldnt "heaven" or any type of afterlife be by definition another dimension anyways? I mean really when we enter this kind of territory the lines between a natural explanation and a supernatural explanation are very blurred. Really they are just terms that are used to pit rationalists against faith. Afterall if it somehow could be proven that the afterlife is real would it be considered "natural" or "supernatural"? If the existence of God could be proven would that proof make him supernatural or the interdimensional natural being that created the universe? When you think about it that way both are essentially the same thing at that point and the two terms are just words that we humans made up in a vain attempt to categorize things we do and dont understand.
If anything the fact that the KOTCS beings are described as "transdimensional" as opposed to straight out aliens from a solar system 103 light years from earth or whatever reinforces the supernaturalness of the previous three movies.
Indy's brother
New member
chicago103 said:
Well the ideas you present are certainly plausible, but really a stretch for KOTCS. I don't really think they were diggin that deep with this one. As far as OX knowing that they were inter-dimensional beings, I just chalked that up to the crystal skull mind-meld he had going on. I've mentioned before, btw, that I believe Indy had some kind of mental connection with it too, that was severed when they disappeared (that's why he was crying when he said "where did they go..."). Kind of like E.T. and Elliot
chicago103 said:
1: The previous 3 movies need nothing to reinforce the supernatural nature of the artifacts Indy pursues in them.
2: God is supernatural in that by definition there is no one greater than Him. Furthermore, He always is, was, and will be (in other words, He is un-created). The existence of aliens (inter/trans-dimensional beings) does not affect God's supernatural status. He's apart from the created realm (if you want a Biblical definition). IDBs would still be reckoned as part of the created order. So they teleport, so what. They obviously die and stay that way once killed. God does not.
3: As for Ox, seems he knew what he knew because the Skull filled him in, the same way Indy knew he was chosen to take it to Akator: "because it told me to."
Montana Smith
Active member
Walton said:
Yet there is never any proof of the existence of God in the first three movies - only occurrences attributed to God by characters who have no other evidence to the contrary.
I wonder whether Indy would attribute Mola Ram's powers to God or the Devil in Christian terms? Or whether he does accept a pantheon of different gods, which is what KOTCS suggests by introducing the first material evidence of a god-like creature in an Indiana Jones movie.
Gods are more interesting when they're more human-like, as opposed to infinitely god-like. The IDBs more closely resemble the gods of Greek or Norse myth who were closer to mortals than the indestructible all-powerful Christian deity. The IDBs display weakness in requiring human assistance.
Montana Smith said:
The IDBs only show themselves to be another branch of the created order. They don't strike me as god-like. They have tech we don't have. But the fact that they have tech at all means they aren't deities. God has no need of a machine. The IDBs are created beings that banked on the ignorance and fear of a primitive culture to be revered as gods. That seems to be Indy's take: "Depends on who your god is."
Mola Ram...I'm gonna go with the Devil or at least a demonic entity. If Indy is as "Sunday schooled" as his family history hints, he wouldn't attribute tearing a man's heart out to a loving God per the Bible.
Indy's brother
New member
Montana Smith said:
Thanks for that, Montana. I think you were able to more directly make one of my points.
That the supernatural explanation is implied without being %100 stated, proven in a lab, etc, which lead to the original topic of this thread. As it should be in these movies. It allows the viewer to draw their own conclusions on the topic, just like we do in life. I'm sure that wasn't the original intent, though. I think GL, SS, and Kasdan simply decided not to be preachy, or insensitive to viewers of other faiths. Yet another genius brushstroke in ROTLA, the greatest adventure movie ever made!Montana Smith
Active member
Indy's brother said:Thanks for that, Montana. I think you were able to more directly make one of my points.
Yes, that's exactly how I view ROTLA.
It must be tempting for those of faith to see the movie in terms of faith, to see nothing but God. That is what Marcus did in the film - he was interpreting the situation based on his upbringing. Once you tyake a step back and view the series with a cold dispassionate eye, you can see that there is no actual evidence for the existence of God. We only have the intepretations by the characters to go on, and they are just as in the dark as the audience.
In retrosepct it was a clever move by Lucas and Spielberg to preent themselves going down the route of one religion, one God. Instead we're given what purports to be a fire and brimstone Old Testament God; the Indian God Kali; the New Testament Christian God; and finally the IDBs, whom Daeniken termed the 'real Gods'.
Montana Smith said:
Is that a problem? Some of the people who post on this thread clearly state they are not people of faith -- they see the movie accordingly. Hello, Pot, I'm Kettle.
It must be tempting for those of reason to see the movie in terms of reason, to see nothing but rationalizations.
It must be tempting for atheists to see the movie in terms of science, to not see God.
All I'm saying is each of us will advocate or excuse based on our individual worldviews. The temptation to interpret as such is equal, faith or none.
Montana Smith
Active member
Walton said:
I interpret the film based on the evidence the film provides. For example, I'm an atheist, though I see no evidence for Indy as an atheist. I don't see Raiders in terms of science, but in those of the supernatural. That is, forces inexplicable to human science. Even though by KOTCS we see IDBs, human science still cannot explain the workings of slipping between dimensions.
My point was that Lucas and Spielberg left ROTLA open-ended, so that it was inoffensive to those of differing faiths or none at all. The following movies also accomplished this (However, Indians took offense to Mola Ram, even though his 'voodoo' version of the Thuggee cult was entirely fictional in real world India).
The supernatural is a plot device in the movies which expands the horizon of Indy's world. He inhabits a fictional world created purely for adventure.
Last edited:
Montana Smith said:
Right, I get that. I'm disappointed in KOTCS, because it's like...oh, aliens. No further questions. It does not leave one with a sense of wonder. I've witnessed miracles a few times, and even the thought of them leaves me mystified, even hopeful. But KOTCS...it was flat, disappointing. If there's a part of the IJ saga that IS of this earth...it's KOTCS.