Walter Donovan - a good villain or not?

Gear

Gear

New member
Cropsy said:
I guess you can say Doc Brown chose poorly!

When that grail hits 88ph, your gonna see some serious S ***.
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Hahaha,


Aww, BttF... reminds me, and this may very well be the wrong place to post this, so...


Anyway, a brother of a friend of mine once prank called a local automotive garage/store and upon the employee greeting his call asks "Hi, do you guys happen to have a flux capacitor for an '84 Delorean?" and the mechanic goes "Uh, well, I'll take a look." then returns to say "Um, we don't have any in inventory so I'll look around.". 10 minutes surpass before he returns (apparently looking for a "Flux Capacitor" at the front computer) to say "Yeah, I can't find anything he-- HEY! This is somuthat BACK TO THE FUTURE SH*T, ISN'T IT?! and my buddies brother busted and hung up.
 
Col. Detritch

Col. Detritch

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Originally Posted by
I agree that Donovan's a pretty bad dude. Dull, perhaps, but certainly not a great person by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't really think that Henry's obsession with the grail can be looked at any "healthier" because he didn't sell out his country. He clearly pushed his wife away, someone who he was supposed to be closest to in the world, so much so that she couldn't even tell him she was sick. And his son, his only child, he hadn't spoken to in years because he could never make time for him as a boy. And when he does see him again, he does nothing buy scold. Clearly not father, husband, or man of the year. From her brief amount of screen time, we can see that Donovan at least has a seemingly healthy relationship with his wife. Since we only see them on screen together for about five seconds, it's difficult to really argue one way or the other that they are a "happy" couple, but they are together and throwing a party together, so Donovan manages to keep his family life and obsession with the grail in check, something Henry Sr. couldn't do.
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Hit the nail on the head my friend! :gun: (except I didn't think Donovan was dull?!) If anything Henry was a darker version of Donovan (obsesion wise) He ignored his only son, ill wife (though he didn't know) and everything that mattered in life looking for a wooden cup! He waisted his own youth to find the cup that provided everlasting youth. Its like Captain Ahab and his vengance against the white whale in Moby Dick it consumes him and becomes his whole life. Quite sad really.:hat:
 
Lance Quazar

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Niteshade007 said:
... so Donovan manages to keep his family life and obsession with the grail in check, something Henry Sr. couldn't do.
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I don't think there's anything to indicate Donovan ever had an "obsession with the grail" like Henry did.

Yes, Donovan was "passionate" about antiquities. Though he had an impressive private collection (not something frowned upon in those days like today) and would "sell his mother for an Etruscan vase", he was also a patron who donated generously to the museum. I don't think he was a bad guy before the events of "LC" drove him over the edge.

Furthermore, I don't think Donovan had any special interest in the Grail until his team stumbled onto the tablet.

It strikes me as way too much of a storytelling cheat/coincidence for Donovan to have been a Grail obsessive who also just happens to stumble onto the tablet through blind chance.

I think he became obsessed with the idea of eternal life (as opposed to possession of the Grail itself, which he explicitly didn't care about) once he realized it was within his grasp.
 
Lance Quazar

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Joe Brody said:
Interestingly, I take issue with any Arts & Crafts elements in any residence in the 1950's. From the Raiders residence, we can infer that Indy was into modern/Art Deco in the late 1930's. Arts & Crafts predates modern/Art Deco. I just find it hard to believe that someone who had modern tastes in the '30's would actually take a step back in the 1950's to Arts & Crafts -- especially since the contemporary offerings in the '40's & '50's were such a great culmination of the modern/art deco stuff from the '30's. If Jones went Arts & Crafts in the '50's, that's essentially saying that he chose to go backwards -- which seems reactionary.
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I don't really remember the look of his house from KOTCS - still desperately trying to forget that film. But I think that is a perfectly natural progression. As the character gets older, I think his tastes would become more conservative.

I don't see a late 50's, early 60's Indy getting into mid-century modern. I think his tastes would definitely tend towards those older styles. Reactionary? Not really.

I'm still grappling with the guy still being a professor in his '60's after having gone through the War.
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Why?! Most people were eager to get back to their old lives after the war. What do you think a more natural career path for Indy would have been post-war? I absolutely think he'd want to get back to real archaeology and teaching.


The KotCS residence is a jumbled mish-mash -- so much so that it doesn't say anything about Indiana Jones (other than to say that he's become a reactionary).
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Probably the most perplexing thing is how Indy managed to get a hold of publicity images (Willie Scott) and movie freeze-frames (Marcus, Henry) as keepsake photos in both his house and his office!

The new residence reminds me of the set decoration in the lines of a Disney Indiana Jones attraction --give the masses what they want, not what the character deserves. It's the latest example of the dumbing down of the character.
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Hey, the Indiana Jones Ride queue at Disneyland is quite nicely done!


And as for Indy hoarding items in his LC office that should be on public display, most museums display only a fraction of their collections -- so I don't think Indy would be doing anything wrong if he kept a distinctive (and valuable) article in his office if he was doing work on it.
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Exactly. To say nothing of the fact that what is on display in a museum at any given moment is only a small fraction of the items in their possession.
 
S

sgttom

New member
I wouldn't say Donovan is the dark side of Henry Sr. Donovan isn't really an archeologist, he admitted it himself. He was just possessed with gaining immortality. I wouldn't really say Belloq is the dark side of Indy either as Belloq lets other people do his work for him.
 
R

roundshort

Active member
I love seeign an older thread with great discussions. Thanks for digging it up. a nice read before I pack up and leave work for the night.

I have to agree that Donovan is just Panama hat with more ambition. Henry is a parallel of abner, and The monkey in raiders, well he is just a monkey, a dead one at that!
 
Insomniac

Insomniac

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Donavan didn't know anything about the grail and certainly didn't put his heart and soul into the search unless his heart and soul was his wallet (He's the slime of humanity).

So they're similar but not necessarily the darker side.
 
Meerkat

Meerkat

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jonesissparrow said:
From ROTLA Belloq was the darker side of Indy who would play dirty to get the artifact. And I wonder after watching LC again is Donovan the dark side of Henry Jones? I mean both were obsessed in finding the grail, Henry was obsessed where it strained his relationship with his family but he never stooped so low to sell out his country where Donovan on the other hand was so passionate about immortality and finding the cup that he becomes a ruthless killer and betray his country to have immortal life.
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Hm...Seems likely. I never really thought about this before, but Henry Jones Senior would never betray his country (or anything else) for the Nazis. (I hate those guys too.:gun: )
 
Team Indy

Team Indy

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jonesissparrow said:
From ROTLA Belloq was the darker side of Indy who would play dirty to get the artifact. And I wonder after watching LC again is Donovan the dark side of Henry Jones? I mean both were obsessed in finding the grail, Henry was obsessed where it strained his relationship with his family but he never stooped so low to sell out his country where Donovan on the other hand was so passionate about immortality and finding the cup that he becomes a ruthless killer and betray his country to have immortal life.
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This would make sense, but Donovan and Henry Jones Sr. are polar opposites, and not just when it comes to morality.

I can't picture Donovan smashing someone in the head with a vase by accident. He prefers using more subtle ways of deception, such as hiring Indy on an archaeological mission when neither him nor Elsa are people to trust. Henry Jones Sr. is more of an intellectual than Donovan, but his intentions are objective, such as actively insulting, injuring, and killing his enemies. Donovan wants to use his enemies to get what he wants.

I can understand that Belloq is Indy's shadow, but Donovan and Henry Jones Sr. are two completely different people.
 
Attila the Professor

Attila the Professor

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Staff member
If Donovan parallels anybody, he might parallel Marcus, in the Raiders/LC-in-civilization variation of that character. Collector (one private, one in his role as curator), relatively well-to-do, polished, very respectable. Indeed, the way Donovan fills the exposition role in the film makes this possibility reasonably strong. Also, to Indy's question - "do you believe, Marcus?" - Marcus responds saying that "the search for the cup of Christ is the search for the divine in all of us. At my age Indy, I'm prepared to take a few things on faith." This is to say that for both Marcus and Donovan, their own age is a very relevant question insofar as their desire to find the grail is concerned. There's even that moment where Marcus seems set to go on to Alexandretta apart from the question of finding Jones Sr.

Idle musings, these. But those who note that Donovan doesn't have a single obsession are quite right. Rather, this is the single item that pushes him beyond his normal realm and his normal actions. So it is with Marcus.
 
Team Indy

Team Indy

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Attila the Professor said:
If Donovan parallels anybody, he might parallel Marcus, in the Raiders/LC-in-civilization variation of that character. Collector (one private, one in his role as curator), relatively well-to-do, polished, very respectable. Indeed, the way Donovan fills the exposition role in the film makes this possibility reasonably strong. Also, to Indy's question - "do you believe, Marcus?" - Marcus responds saying that "the search for the cup of Christ is the search for the divine in all of us. At my age Indy, I'm prepared to take a few things on faith." This is to say that for both Marcus and Donovan, their own age is a very relevant question insofar as their desire to find the grail is concerned. There's even that moment where Marcus seems set to go on to Alexandretta apart from the question of finding Jones Sr.

Idle musings, these. But those who note that Donovan doesn't have a single obsession are quite right. Rather, this is the single item that pushes him beyond his normal realm and his normal actions. So it is with Marcus.
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You're right on all counts. Marcus even looks like Donovan. I was viewing LC photos and mistakenly on first glance thought Donovan was Marcus.

With that in mind, does Henry Sr. have an antithesis? I don't think he does.
 
Col. Detritch

Col. Detritch

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Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
If Donovan parallels anybody, he might parallel Marcus, in the Raiders/LC-in-civilization variation of that character. Collector (one private, one in his role as curator), relatively well-to-do, polished, very respectable. Indeed, the way Donovan fills the exposition role in the film makes this possibility reasonably strong. Also, to Indy's question - "do you believe, Marcus?" - Marcus responds saying that "the search for the cup of Christ is the search for the divine in all of us. At my age Indy, I'm prepared to take a few things on faith." This is to say that for both Marcus and Donovan, their own age is a very relevant question insofar as their desire to find the grail is concerned. There's even that moment where Marcus seems set to go on to Alexandretta apart from the question of finding Jones Sr.

Idle musings, these. But those who note that Donovan doesn't have a single obsession are quite right. Rather, this is the single item that pushes him beyond his normal realm and his normal actions. So it is with Marcus.
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Yeah, I see that! BUT, other than that they are completely different. Donovan is always in control (when the Joneses are nowhere to be found anyway) and slick while Marcus is at times clumsy and bubbleing (which is awsome- best sidekick ever!(y) ) But yes in the sense you speak of, they are VERY similar.:hat:
 
C

Cropsy

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You know what would have been funny? if Donovan as he was dying would talk to Indy saying "remember me Indy? when i shot your father, i talked just like....this! Blarggggggggggggggg".

But one thing i don't understand, why did the false grail age his clothes too? i thought it was suppose to be flesh that has to age from drinking it.
 
indyfan85

indyfan85

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I always thought so too.

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AnythingGoes

AnythingGoes

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I figured that, of all the villains on this board, Donovan has been getting little focus. I thought it was a good idea to feature an American as a Nazi-baddie, but I personally think Donovan could have been drawn--well, better. Julian Glover's portrayal is actually very good, though his accent reminds me somewhat of the bumbling secretary McQueen in the original Murder on the Orient Express. A major problem I have with dear old Walt, is what he gets done. In other words, not much. In ROTLA, we get Belloq, who is the only 'brain among the Nazis'. TOD brings us Mola Ram, who commandeers pretty much the entire events of the film. KOTCS gives us Irina Spalko, who is probably the cleverest military figure in the series. Donovan--well, Donny just relies on Elsa, Vogel, and the other stooges to do his dirty work for him. The only useful thing he really does is swindle the Joneses into 'helping out'.
Well, I just thought it might be fun to discuss our American double-crosser. It helps that I was in a rambling sort of mood today, too.
 
Temple Raider

Temple Raider

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He's alright I guess but probably my least favorite Indy villain. He just seems a little bland compared to the others and not as threatening or memorable, for some reason.
 
T

Thugee

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Definitely the most bland and boring the film villains. Belloq was memorable because he is essentially a "shadowy reflection.." of Indy and they both contrast so well. Mola Ram is just downright freaky, malevolent and evil. Enough said. Irina Spalko is clever and not really evil in a sense, but determined to accomplish her goals. Reminds me a bit of Belloq in a way of not being really "evil". But then there is Donovan. Never really saw him as the "real villain" of TLC, but Vogel instead was a better main villain in a way although I can't really explain why. Maybe Vogel was more threatening to me then Donovan. Plus, Elsa is really the brains, and Vogel is the brawn. Donovan is just kinda...there. Yeah he gets the adventure going but what else does he do?:confused:
 
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