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Old 10-13-2005, 12:26 PM   #1
Paden
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Abner Ravenwood in Last Crusade

While digging around in the archives, I came across this thread, where I learned that in the original drafts of the Last Crusade screenplay, the character of "Fedora" was originally named Abner Ravenwood. A quick check at TheRaider confirmed this. I realize that since the character's name was changed in the final draft, whether "Fedora" actually is Ravenwood or not appears to be a matter of debate. But I was curious to see if any of the more knowledegable people here knew if the earlier drafts of the script revealed any additional details about Ravenwood, above what we witnessed of "Fedora" in the completed film. Being fairly convinced that Ravenwood is one of the pivotal influences on the development of Indiana Jones, I'm interested to learn more about him (if, in fact, there is anything else to learn. )

Oh, and the suggestion of the book club made in the above referenced thread is still an interesting idea.
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Old 10-13-2005, 03:41 PM   #2
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Hmmmm....that would be quite an interesting twist, having a grave-robber end up being Indy's friend and mentor as he grew older. I doubt that the character is Abner (I still assume that he's dead, although it has never been proven). The idea is interesting but I'm not sure how well it wold have worked in the overall timeline of Indy's life. Still, the thought is intriuging.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:28 AM   #3
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Thanks for the well thought out reply, Indy. I can definitely see why it would make sense, in the end result, to let “Fedora” just be a mysterious grave robber, as opposed to Indiana’s future mentor. It keeps the episode we see at the opening of Last Crusade as a formative experience for Indiana, as he discovers his own adventuresome spirit and talents, but doesn’t lessen the mystery of Indiana’s mentorship by Ravenwood, or cross into the continuity of Raiders.

But let’s say, just for the sake of provoking thought, that it is Ravenwood who’s after the Cross of Coronado. In considering the idea, here’s why I think it could be plausible. My impression from Raiders is that there is a certain subset of practitioners of archaeology who are as much mercenaries and grave robbers as they are scientists. Their methods tend to be shadowy and are likely frowned upon by their brethren that are strict adherents to tenets of archaeological science. For these men, results are what matter in the end result: who ends up with the prize. And winning the prize often justifies a great deal, including the use of violence. Counted amongst this shady fraternity are Indiana Jones, Rene Belloq, Forrestal, Marcus Brody, and Abner Ravenwood. (One could also argue, in my mind, for the inclusion of Elsa Schneider as well.) One thing that stands out from watching Raiders numerous times is the fact that all of the members of this select group know one another, either as allies or competitors. What this tells me, by implication, is that the group in question is small. Small enough, at least, for all those involved to know everyone else in the business. In other words, most archaeologists are going to stay on the narrow path of science, conducting digs, carefully collecting artifacts and data, and contributing through writing and presentation to the understanding of history. Only a few are going to become like Jones: adventurers who are willing to risk all to capture a historically significant (and monetarily valuable) prize. (Side note: There are some additional thoughts on the above ideas to be found in this thread, one in which you were a contributor, Indy.)

Which brings us to Ravenwood. Like Indiana, we know that Ravenwood had an academic position at the University of Chicago. But like Indiana the academic position was secondary to Ravenwood’s true passion, his quest for the Ark of the Covenant. Abner’s daughter, Marion, implies that her father had quite the collection of artifacts, gathered from around the world, related to the Ark. I have always presumed that Ravenwood was of the mercenary type, in part because many of the items he collected remained with him, and weren’t donated to a museum as a “responsible” archaeologist would do. Secondly, I’m inclined to see Ravenwood as a grave robber because of his influence on Indiana. Mind you, I know that Jones is independent and that his own unique personality is responsible for much of the formation of his life’s path. But, just from what we know of Jones’ story, it’s clear that Abner was a highly significant mentor in his life. Given the fact that Henry Jones Sr. was more academically/esoterically minded, it’s clear that Indiana didn’t learn his more hard-edged methods from his father. So it seems logical to assume that Jones learned much of what he knows about the dark world of pseudo-archaeology from Ravenwood. To speculate further, I would even say that it is within the realm of possibility that Ravenwood might have undertaken quests completely unrelated to the Ark, such as the Cross of Coronado, in order to finance adventures related to his primary passion.

As I mentioned above, the circle of mercenaries is small, and only involves a select group of hardy individuals. No doubt at a university like the University of Chicago, Ravenwood had an impact on many students, but I don’t believe that many of them went on to become adventurers like Jones. Only a few (or perhaps just one) entered Ravenwood's "inner circle". Somehow, Jones had to be taken into Ravenwood’s confidence during his studies. Now I’ll agree, Ravenwood might have simply had insight into Jones’ character as he came to know him as a student, and ultimately come to the conclusion that he would make a worthy “apprentice” during the course of their association. But let’s say it was Ravenwood out there in Utah, who gifted the young man who sought to thwart his quest with his own fedora, out of admiration for the youth’s courage and determination. Years later, what would his reaction have been when he spied one of his gifted students wearing that familiar hat? Might not that recognition have served to open the door for Indiana to enter into Abner’s confidence?

Just a thought. Like you, I’m torn on whether it should be Ravenwood in the Last Crusade sequence. But either way, he’s a figure that intrigues me, given his impact on the life of our favorite adventurer.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:42 AM   #4
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As another student of all things Ravenwood, I'm also familiar with the Fedora/Ravenwood connection. Unfortunately, I don't know of any additional details revealed about Ravenwood by earlier drafts. Frankly, I'm glad Fedora isn't Ravenwood. While I agree with the depiction of Abner as a grave robber, there are a few things I take exception to regarding Fedora being Ravenwood:

1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.

2. All important events in Indy's life happening in 20 minutes at Arches: Once again, it's bad enough that this fluke adventure gives Indy his whip, scar, hat, and lifelong pursuit. But to throw his mentor in as well... That's just TOO much. Indy must have been REALLY impressionable that day.

Paden, I like all your thoughts on Ravenwood. I think you make a good case of why Fedora COULD be Ravenwood. (I guess I just don't want him to be.) I'd just like to point out that there's nothing about your theories that necessitate Fedora being Ravenwood. Fedora could just have easily been Forrestal.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:58 AM   #5
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actually, he rather would. indy and abner got along well until their controversy about marion. would indy get along well with the guy who, as we know from LC, represents quite the opposite of his "this should be in a museum" attitude?
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:21 AM   #6
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I've never liked the "this belongs in a musuem" refrain. It doesn't mesh with the darker and more mercenary Indy of Raiders. Arguably, Indy does talk about putting the Ark in Marcus' museum, but it doesn't seem to be for the benefit of mankind...

I'm okay with young, idealistic Indy spouting the "museum" line. But I would have much preferred that the eventual retrieval of the Cross of Coronado been fueled by vengeance rather than some moral sensibility.
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.
Honestly, this is one of the most compelling arguments, in my mind, against "Fedora" being Ravenwood. Although, within my own conception of the Indiana Jones character, I can accept him being influenced strongly by a mentor, Indiana trying to make himself a clone of Ravenwood by imitating his dress doesn't fit with Jones' independent nature. Additionally, one might argue that Jones would be less likely to emulate Ravenwood by the time of the events of Raiders, in light of their "falling out".

I'm not so certain that Abner was the biggest proponent of the "belongs in a museum" philosophy. He obviously collected several antiquities, including the headpiece to the Staff of Ra, that never ended up anywhere near a museum. To stick my toe into the pool of speculation for a moment, this makes me wonder what Ravenwood's own motivations were regarding the Ark of the Covenant. I'm not certain that he simply wanted to find it for mere archaeological preservation.

Additional question: The timeline at TheRaider indicates that in 1926 Indiana teamed with Abner to retrieve the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. The timeline attributes this information to one of the Dark Horse comics. But given Indiana's familiarity with the staff, isn't it plausible that he did participate in the quest for its retrieval? Is there anything within the actual film canon that alludes to this idea?
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Old 10-14-2005, 11:16 AM   #8
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Everyone here has made some excellent points that argue both for and aganist Fedora being Ravenwood. To me, this is one of the reasons why I'm such a big Indy fan, not only because there is so much to debate but also because the character of Indy can be viewed differently by each individual. Some people consider only the films to be valid, while others enjoy the comics, video games, books, and films and see all of those things as canon and part of Indy's life. Each person can decide what they feel is part of the series and what is not and I feel this makes each fan unique. We all know about the same character and his overall life but everyone has their own personal timeline and thoughts on what really happend in Indy's life.

To me, this thread is no different. I find each poster's view fasinating because of the wide range of speculation about Indy and his relationship to Ravenwood. I think the argument of whether Fedora is Ravenwood or not could easily go both ways. I think each person's interpretation of the film and the series in general can make a big difference in the portrayal of Ravenwood and Indy. Either way, I'm anxious to continue the discussion because this is a topic that I never considered until i saw this thread and now I'm trying to learn more about Abner, who I don't know too much about.

And in answer to Paden's question, I have no idea but hopefully someone can explain it because I'd like to know too.
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
I'm not so certain that Abner was the biggest proponent of the "belongs in a museum" philosophy. He obviously collected several antiquities, including the headpiece to the Staff of Ra, that never ended up anywhere near a museum. To stick my toe into the pool of speculation for a moment, this makes me wonder what Ravenwood's own motivations were regarding the Ark of the Covenant. I'm not certain that he simply wanted to find it for mere archaeological preservation.

I don't think that Abner was interested in getting stuff to museums at all (unless they were paying well). As Paden already alluded to, remember what Indy says to Marion?

I need one of the pieces your father collected.

Not "the piece" but "one of the pieces". That would seem to indicate a rather substantial number of artifacts (that obviously didn't make it to a museum).

Indy refers to the hunt for Ark being Abner's "obsession". Something for merely monetary gain probably wouldn't advance to the level of obsession. I'm thinking there were very personal reasons that Abner wanted the Ark. I'll posit that Abner's motivation was very much like Belloq's: a search for the divine.


EDIT: This quest for the divine is a recurring theme not only in the Indy films and human history in general, but also here at the Raven it seems. Having solid proof that there is a God... Wow. That's a pretty big deal. I think it's safe to say:

"Men will kill for it. Men like you and I."

Last edited by Deadlock : 10-14-2005 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 10-14-2005, 01:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Indy refers to the hunt for Ark being Abner's "obsession". Something for merely monetary gain probably wouldn't advance to the level of obsession. I'm thinking there were very personal reasons that Abner wanted the Ark. I'll posit that Abner's motivation was very much like Belloq's: a search for the divine.
An observation, based on this idea (one I would wager has already been made elsewhere on these forums). If we surmise that Abner's interest in the Ark was a quest for the divine, isn't it interesting the parallel that this creates between Abner and Henry Jones Sr., and the two men's respective "obsessions"? Certainly Henry Sr. was not seeking the Holy Grail for financial gain, but for divine "enlightenment". His interest was in the spiritual secrets that the Grail could unveil. If Abner's desire to locate the Ark was tied to obtaining divine knowledge, his motivations were, at their foundation, eerily similar to those of Indiana's father. Interesting to consider the fact that two of the greatest influences on Indiana's life were equally fixated on searching out spiritual mysteries.
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Old 10-14-2005, 02:26 PM   #11
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I've been too busy to weigh-in here on this great thread but I don't think Abner's obsession was a search for divine/enlightenment. Watch the Ten Commandments. I'd argue that the relic itself has meaning in divining Abner's motivation. My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).

Last edited by Joe Brody : 10-14-2005 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 10-14-2005, 02:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
Additional question: The timeline at TheRaider indicates that in 1926 Indiana teamed with Abner to retrieve the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. The timeline attributes this information to one of the Dark Horse comics. But given Indiana's familiarity with the staff, isn't it plausible that he did participate in the quest for its retrieval? Is there anything within the actual film canon that alludes to this idea?

Although I can't think anything in the film canon that links Indy to the quest for the Staff of Ra, I agree that he must have had some involvement. Sadly, the comic Paden mentioned, Indiana Jones and the Lost Horizon, can't be used as a source, either. It reached some level of development at Darkhorse, but it was never published.
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).

I like theory #1 a lot, and theory #3 could even play into 1 (if he was seeking a way to salvage his professional reputation).

Interesting question about Mrs. Ravenwood... (Kinda funny to have all these single archaeologist fathers running around. ) I don't want to indulge in too many stereotypes here... but given Marion's rough and tumble demeanor, I'll postulate that she didn't have much in the way of feminine influence. Who knows? Marion's mother might not have been "Mrs. Ravenwood" at all. Adding "womanizer" to Abner's (mostly unchallenged) identity as a grave robber and (relatively reasonable) reputation as a boozer wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Anyway, here's my theory as to why Abner would end up raising Marion alone: Marion's mom died in childbirth. It might also explain why Abner wasn't too fond of Marion.

I can't say I buy theory number 2, Joe. Too holy-roller for my image of Abner (though I COULD see such an institution kicking Abner out, which would play into the "disgraced archaeologist" theory.)
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior Jones
Although I can't think anything in the film canon that links Indy to the quest for the Staff of Ra, I agree that he must have had some involvement. Sadly, the comic Paden mentioned, Indiana Jones and the Lost Horizon, can't be used as a source, either. It reached some level of development at Darkhorse, but it was never published.

I'm guessing that Indy must have had something to do with finding the staff, given his knowledge and familiarity with it that Paden and Junior Jones already mentioned but there's nothing in the books or films that says so. We know that both Indiana and Ravenwood found the headpiece but the staff is sort of a mystery. Perhaps they both found it together or maybe Ravenwood had it and it was later taken by Indy. It would certainly make for some good fan fiction.
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paden
Interesting to consider the fact that two of the greatest influences on Indiana's life were equally fixated on searching out spiritual mysteries.

Personally, I think this symmetry would be apropos. Obsession (and the reasonable conclusion: willingness to do anything) is a thread weaved throughout the films... a thread linking both good guys and bad guys.

"Hitler's a nut on the subject. Crazy. He's obsessed with the occult."

"Men will kill for it. Men like you and I."

"I knew you'd sell your mother for an Etruscan vase. But I didn't know you'd sell your country and your soul to the slime of humanity."

"Don't look at me like that-we both wanted the Grail, I would have done anything to get it. You would have done the same."

"This is an obsession, Dad!"


The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Last edited by Deadlock : 10-14-2005 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 10-14-2005, 03:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Impressive collection of quotes. You have true mastery of the scripts.

As for Indy having an obsession, on several occassions I've said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody in the 'Indy 4 and the true origin of Pale Horse' thread

I'd bet a dollar that there will a Don Quixote reference or allusion in Indy IV.

And aren't we all out chasing windmills?
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Old 10-14-2005, 06:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Deadlock
(Kinda funny to have all these single archaeologist fathers running around. )


What, you want them to have their mummies with them?
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:39 PM   #18
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Also in ROTLA,Indy comments that Abner 'did the first serious work on Tanis',and'collected some of its relics',so there is a very strong chance that Indy was with Abner when he was doing this.Of course,'very strong chance' still isn't exactly canon.

When the Army intelligence guys think that Ravenwood may be a Nazi,Marcus is quick to disagree and Indy's disagreement could be implied by his line about the Nazi's wanting something that Abner has.In other words,it seems that Indy still respects Ravenwood and that maybe their falling-out was not a professional one(which we know it wasn't),and I'm not sure that I believe Indy would try and steal artifacts from people that he respected.
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Old 10-14-2005, 11:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody
I've been too busy to weigh-in here on this great thread but I don't think Abner's obsession was a search for divine/enlightenment. Watch the Ten Commandments. I'd argue that the relic itself has meaning in divining Abner's motivation. My guess is that Abner was looking for either (1) redemption for past wrongs (Was he a guilty drunk? And what ever happened to Mrs. Ravenwood anyway?), (2) to give a wake-up call to heathen masses and the forces of modernity (note, the University of Chicago was at its roots a Baptist institution -- but I've got more on that later), or a quest for personal glory (to bring the great relic back home to fame and acclaim).
I'm going to echo Deadlock in saying that of these theories, I find the first the most compelling. In part because the idea of redemption ties in with the role that the Ark played historically in the lives of the Hebrew people. Leviticus 16:15 (NKJV): "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat." On the Jewish Day of Atonement, the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle and sprinkle the blood of the goat on the mercy seat (the space on the lid of the Ark between the two kneeling cherubim) as an offering for the sins of the people, in order to obtain reconciliation with God. Abner, as intimately aware as he was about the Ark and its history, certainly knew that this was one of its primary functions in the spiritual life of the Hebrews. Given some of the things that have been conjectured about his life, he undoubtedly had many regrets and may well have craved forgiveness, seeing the Ark as a means to obtain it. I can't keep from considering the ironic thought that the source of some of Abner's ostensible guilt (grave robbing, violence, the neglect of his family) stemmed from his quest for the very object he believed could provide him with redemption.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the second theory, Joe, particularly those that tie into the Baptist background of the university. If Abner was seeking to shake up society through divine judgment, I'm inclined to guess his motivation was not based on religious conviction, but on his own subjective assessment of the corruption he saw in society, in relation to other historical eras where he believed that justice and morality were held as a higher priority. Certainly the "roaring twenties", when I estimate much of Abner's quest of the Ark transpired, was a time of widespread self-absorption and moral ambiguity. It's interesting to juxtapose this theory of Ravenwood's motive with the concept of him as a mercenary. Perhaps for Abner the ultimate good of the Ark's impact on a morally collapsing world was worth the questionable means required to obtain it.

The third theory opens up, in my mind, further questions about Abner. I've been prone to view Abner as a rather confident figure, but perhaps he viewed himself as a failure. As a young man, the mercenary path promised fortune and fame, but with age and experience, maybe Ravenwood wished he had kept to pure science, bitterly aware that had he done so, he could have contributed to others' historical understanding, rather that chasing the empty promise of glory around the globe. As Deadlock suggests, capturing the Ark would exonerate Abner in the eyes of his colleagues and, more importantly, in his own. Finishing the quest would provide him with a sense of meaning, and make all of the sacrifices and regrets worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.
I agree. To me, part of the theme of Last Crusade was Indiana being reconciled to his father. The fractured relationship between he and Henry Sr. was healed. It's fitting that in the last chapter, Indiana has to find peace with himself.

Last edited by Paden : 10-14-2005 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 10-15-2005, 06:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Horse
What, you want them to have their mummies with them?

This joke seems to be not Indiana Jones related or not funny. Please get back to funny jokes or we will have to delete your replies from now on.

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Old 10-15-2005, 12:45 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by TombReader
When the Army intelligence guys think that Ravenwood may be a Nazi,Marcus is quick to disagree and Indy's disagreement could be implied by his line about the Nazi's wanting something that Abner has.In other words,it seems that Indy still respects Ravenwood and that maybe their falling-out was not a professional one(which we know it wasn't),and I'm not sure that I believe Indy would try and steal artifacts from people that he respected.

That has generally been my opinion too. Although Indy and Ravenwood did have a falling-out it seems that Indy still puts Ravenwood in high regard and considers him a worthy expert on the Ark and the headpiece to the Staff of Ra. I do wonder, however, if Ravenwood felt the same way about Indy.
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Old 10-15-2005, 01:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
The final piece to complete this drama about obsession would be Indy following in the footsteps of his father figures... Indiana gets his very own in Indy 4.

Impressive collection of quotes. You have true mastery of the scripts.

As for Indy having an obsession, on several occassions I've said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Brody in the 'Indy 4 and the true origin of Pale Horse' thread

I'd bet a dollar that there will a Don Quixote reference or allusion in Indy IV.

And aren't we all out chasing windmills?

To that end, what would be worthy of Indy's obssession? The only thing we have to go on to this point of the trilogy is Fortune and Glory. It is the one thing he hasn't experienced to this point, and as he comes to the end of his life, maybe that is what he longs for. A shotty professor whose only accolades are smitten females and apple kissing males vying for recognition? A black market archeologist who can't even acquire a legimate piece of history through traditional means? To tie in the father/mentor aspect with Henry and Ravenwood...is he Ray Kinsella and his cornfield dig would be to find Tut's tomb with the two men who meant the most to him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay R. Zay
This joke seems to be not Indiana Jones related or not funny. Please get back to funny jokes or we will have to delete your replies from now on.


point taken, I quess I'll have to get a bit funnier from now on, it's just not really a domineering mods style...
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Old 10-17-2005, 04:45 PM   #23
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Sorry to enter late here but,

I look at Fedora as an inspiration to young Indy, the way he dressed, using hired hands (probably local, given the make up of his crew, a ute Indian, a kid, etc, not the professional student hands used on official digs). When Indy realized he wanted to be a grave robber whne he grew up he looked at Fedora as his inspiration, because he was an anit-Henry Jones. We know Indy was not thrilled with his childhood relationship with his father (insert deep quote from LC here). So when he ran into Fedora, that was as far from what Indy grew up and took him as a role model (hate to think Indy was ever so simple-minded but he was a kid).

Ravenwood on the other hand was probably someone in the middle. Not the strict by the book, Henry Jones type, but as not the rouge Fedora. I am sure Indy had a close student professor relationship with Abner and learned a lot about research and field digs, but always kept the graverobber image of Fedora with him.

Maybe Indy and Ravenwood's falling out was a bit deeper than just the broad (and yes ToJ, I am sure Ravenwood resented Indy for laying the pipe). I wonder if the falling out was a bit of guilt Indy had on his "own methods" of field research, which were not like Ravenwood, and he did not want Abner to see that Indy had become nothing more than a grave robber with a Profeesor gig. I feel Indy let Marion be an excuse to tear away from Abner and his father, only Marcus was willing to turn the other way and provide Indy with pay. We know from LC that Marcus was not really good at anything, heck he even got laost in his own Museum. So Marcus i am sure was just happy to have a steady flow of "good objects" coming in and would not ask questions that Henry or Abner would have asked. I wonder if Indy was ashamed of his methods and motives, and let himself be a loner and lose contact witht he people close to him. I don not think Abner was a rough and tumble type like Indy, but if they want to make Indy IV the quest for Ravenwood, then the back story might be better if he was.
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Old 10-20-2005, 03:40 PM   #24
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See this is what I am talking about, this was a great Indy thread about Indy, and it just dies, while the Birthday page keeps going, why?
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Old 10-20-2005, 08:23 PM   #25
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So,should we change the format of this site from Indy to birthdays?
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