Big Hero 6

kongisking

Active member
Le Saboteur said:
I'll hold Joe Brody down and you can pummel him with your pom poms.

Sound good?

gene.gif

I think I know why that thread turned into a condescending dismissal of the movie and people who like it. Because The Raven is full of patriarchy/stereotype-enforcing anti-progressives. Damn, Detective Holmes should hire me...

Anyway, I am really excited for this too. Though I still wish Baymax was mute, as he seemed to be in the teaser. I love the idea of a big, quiet marshmallow robot superhero who's like a big cute baby but can kick ass. Hilarious. :D

Then again, the brief clip shown during that ABC documentary about the making of The Film That Shall Not Be Named featured a scene of him talking, and it was incredibly funny anyway. Whatdoiknow...
 

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
kongisking said:
I think I know why that thread turned into a condescending dismissal of the movie and people who like it. Because The Raven is full of patriarchy/stereotype-enforcing anti-progressives. Damn, Detective Holmes should hire me...

Way to tar everyone with the same brush. Anyhow, if you think so, pick up a shovel and dig.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
kongisking said:
If this movie had a princess in it, and became a hit...I wonder if Raveners would lament the loss of good ol' classic manliness in entertainment?

Just noting an annoying double standard.

[Laughingly] Dude, I will start lamenting right now without even having seen the film and without it having a Princess. I watched the last BH6 trailer with my kids a couple of days ago, and I get the story. And while I respect Le Sab's confidence about the film's prospects, I can't share it.

Less Bruckheimer (and even his stuff has gone bad), Disney has a spotty track record on male targeted films -- I'm thinking Treasure Planet and Atlantis -- and the Cars franchise has always been repugnant to me. I would say there's a decent chance Disney again misses the mark with this film and it's squeezy robot angle because young boys will reject it because it's either a little creepy or lacking (I don't know to say this) an edge.

I've got an easy going nine year old boy who likes best to whale on things in Minecraft -- and he's not interested in BH6. But anything coming out of my household is likely bad data (we spent Saturday night watching the President's U.N. speach, which we couldn't watch earlier due to tests, soccer and music lessons), so let's take a step back and look at how the competition will impact BHG: I note that BH6 has less than two weeks in early November until Katniss and her crew come out swinging and bombing everything in sight with what looks like a bona fide big budget war flick. That film is going to vacu-suck up every last PG-13 filmgoer with an ounce of Testostrone on the planet for several weeks. Anyone afraid of explosions will take their kids to the cute (safe but entertaining) Penguins of Madacasgar. So what am I saying? BH6 will be the choice that will only have lukewarm support in family debates about what film to see over the Turkey holiday -- in other words BH6 has pressure on both sides and if BH6 ain't raking it in over Thanksgiving, it isn't going to do bofo box office.

I also think there is risk to BH6 on possible holdover action from October. I think Dracula Untold went with the PG-13 rating. If so and if the film is good, than that film is going to deprive BH6 of critical tween and teen revenue (now obviously, Dracula won't be a holdover threat if it sucks but I know my kids want to see it). Also, every guy that I've talked movies with over the past three-to-four months that has an ounce of Testostrone has Fury carved into their calendar with Lt. Aldo Raine's Bowie knife. Clearly, Fury is not direct competition but there are a helluva lot of military families in this country that will don't do first fun films but will spend to see Fury on date night and than wait to take the kids to a film over Thanksgiving (which takes us to the dilemma presented above). Similary, I think that Alexander very whatever horrible day film, if it is good, could hurt BH6 among some families that don't go to the movies every month.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
. . .sorry for the double post but my son just raised another point relevant to my threat-from-the-marketplace analysis.

I just asked him if he wants to see BH6 and he said he'd rather see Guardians of the Galaxy again (a lot of his friends saw it several times in theatre but I'd have none of that -- apart from Cherry Bomb I'm not the biggest fan of the film).

My point? Kids in BH6's target age don't distinguish between live action and animation. And all these kids have just come off recently watching a wildly entertaining and edgy blockbuster. So right now, Guardians sets the bar and I'm afraid the goofy, adventurous BH6 will come up short (especially with Katniss looming on the near horizon).

I went and saw that BH6 is still unrated. I know a lot of films do that, but to me this is a sign of weakness. Clearly can't go 'G.' Go PG and no tweens and teens go. Get a weak PG13 and you alienate some of the tweens and teens who go and see it but who are coming off of a Guardians high. I think BH6 may be a good film that may be a victim of its slot on the release schedule -- even though it has little direct competition.
 
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kongisking

Active member
Attila the Professor said:
Way to tar everyone with the same brush. Anyhow, if you think so, pick up a shovel and dig.

Okay, I confess to using angry hyperbole. But it was starting to enter that direction. Horsey flat-out said he was willing to let the thread drift into a conversation about 'masculinity' dying off in fiction, which I'm fairly certain would just turn into a one-sided roast of 'little girl' media (because Disney movies can never be appreciated by guys, apparently), and I'd be there, unable to say a dissenting word and be taken seriously.

I know, I know, I should go somewhere else with my tampons...
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Joe Brody said:
Less Bruckheimer (and even his stuff has gone bad), Disney has a spotty track record on male targeted films -- I'm thinking Treasure Planet and Atlantis -- and the Cars franchise has always been repugnant to me. I would say there's a decent chance Disney again misses the mark with this film and it's squeezy robot angle because young boys will reject it because it's either a little creepy or lacking (I don't know to say this) an edge.

Don't want to be the one to remind someone of one's age but...Atlantis and Treasure Planet were made over a decade ago, the Walt Disney Company, especially the animation department, is a totally different beast than it was back then(pretty much started when Iger took over and with the purchase of Pixar a few months later), so apples and oranges. Based on the marketing, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job selling the character Baymax, something those other two movies never achieved at, I also think they're doing a good job selling the action without making it feel like another superhero movie.

Joe Brody said:
I just asked him if he wants to see BH6 and he said he'd rather see Guardians of the Galaxy again (a lot of his friends saw it several times in theatre but I'd have none of that -- apart from Cherry Bomb I'm not the biggest fan of the film).

My point? Kids in BH6's target age don't distinguish between live action and animation. And all these kids have just come off recently watching a wildly entertaining and edgy blockbuster. So right now, Guardians sets the bar and I'm afraid the goofy, adventurous BH6 will come up short (especially with Katniss looming on the near horizon).

Interesting for you to compare Guardians with Big Hero 6, as that film also had some people skeptical of its success before its release, mostly people wondering if anyone would be interested in superheroes outside the well-known ones. Since it proved to be the biggest 2014 film so far, I think Big Hero 6 has the chance to be a success.

As I see it, the two films best comparable to BH6 are Wreck-It-Ralph and The Incredibles. The former because it was the most recent hit Disney has had with a male-targeted audience(having the "From the Makers of Wreck-It-Ralph tag in the trailer will help), the later because because that too was a superhero film that had the challenge of being a follow-up to a huge smash-hit (Finding Nemo). The Incredibles wasn't quite as big of a success as that fish film, but it was still a very profitable and successful film in its own right (that's finally getting a sequel) I imagine that will be the case with Big Hero 6 following Frozen.


Also, I got to see the "Sneak Peak" yesterday at Disneyland. It was basically a few clips, which included the "Scale from 1-10" clip posted, but also a couple new ones: including an introductory of the other 4 "heros", with the trailer tagged at the very end. (not as impressive as say, the first 15-20 minutes of the movie like I was hoping, but hey I got a free kite which is cool right?)

From what I could tell, the entire audience seemed really enthusiastic, eager to see more.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Forbidden Eye said:
Don't want to be the one to remind someone of one's age but...Atlantis and Treasure Planet were made over a decade ago, the Walt Disney Company, especially the animation department, is a totally different beast than it was back then(pretty much started when Iger took over and with the purchase of Pixar a few months later), so apples and oranges.

Valid point on my use of stale precedent -- I was trying to go with animation and frankly didn't even know of Wreck-it-Ralph's existence. My bad. I did however hint at Disney's recent live action missteps with Bruckheimer's Prince of Persia, Pirates sequels, and Lone Ranger. And since you brought up Pixar, I'd say Disney had 'the' epic fail with giving the Pixar golden boy a blank check to do John Carter. Now you can say, 'But Joe, that's live action" -- to which I would say, there's no way all the green lights and budget decisions for these films -- live action or animated -- are being made at just the studio level. So I do lay the collective RECENT live action and animation failure at Disney current leadership's feet. If all you got is Wreck-It-Ralph, you don't got much. Thinking about it for a second, has Disney done any decent guy targeted live action movies in recent memory apart from the first Pirates, Tron and that Paul Walker husky-dog movie? I usually look for Roundshort or Pale on these things.

Forbidden Eye said:
Based on the marketing, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job selling the character Baymax, something those other two movies never achieved at, I also think they're doing a good job selling the action without making it feel like another superhero movie.

I'll show my age again here. As a young kid I remember similar pre-release gushing over the robots in The Black Hole. Yeah, look how that turned out.

Now let's compare. Watch the Guardians trailer with Rocket talking smack and grabbing his crotch (which is tacky and not to my taste). My son still cracks up over the 12%-of-a-plan exchange. Now watch Baymax in the kids bedroom knocking over some books with his large posterior and getting his gut stuffed into an armored girdle. I may well be wrong but do you seriously think boys are going to go for that?

Forbidden Eye said:
Interesting for you to compare Guardians with Big Hero 6, as that film also had some people skeptical of its success before its release, mostly people wondering if anyone would be interested in superheroes outside the well-known ones. Since it proved to be the biggest 2014 film so far, I think Big Hero 6 has the chance to be a success.

As I see it, the two films best comparable to BH6 are Wreck-It-Ralph and The Incredibles. The former because it was the most recent hit Disney has had with a male-targeted audience(having the "From the Makers of Wreck-It-Ralph tag in the trailer will help), the later because because that too was a superhero film that had the challenge of being a follow-up to a huge smash-hit (Finding Nemo). The Incredibles wasn't quite as big of a success as that fish film, but it was still a very profitable and successful film in its own right (that's finally getting a sequel) I imagine that will be the case with Big Hero 6 following Frozen.

You make the call -- will BH6 do better box office than Wreck-It-Ralph? And if so, by how much and what does it need to be a hit?
 

curmudgeon

Well-known member
So I do lay the collective RECENT live action and animation failure at Disney current leadership's feet. If all you got is Wreck-It-Ralph, you don't got much. Thinking about it for a second, has Disney done any decent guy targeted live action movies in recent memory apart from the first Pirates, Tron and that Paul Walker husky-dog movie? I usually look for Roundshort or Pale on these things.

I assume you mean apart from their recent, successful Marvel films?

I wouldn't say there's anything overtly "girly" about films like WDA's Bolt or Pixar's Up, Toy Story 3, Monsters University... although I'd accept the argument that they may seem more like a neutral "kid targeted" than necessarily "guy targeted." (Although one could argue that this would also be the case with Big Hero 6.)
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
curmudgeon said:
I assume you mean apart from their recent, successful Marvel films?

[In my best Brad Pitt Detective Mills voice]Exactly. A major driver behind the Marvel acquisition was that Disney wasn't successful with its male targeted efforts (not to mention that the Marvel strategy has turned out to be a license to print money]. And that's what you do in the corporate world, if you can't fix a problem you buy your way out. Most acquisitions fail. Credit to the great Disney M&A team for what was a lightning fast deal in buying Marvel -- and credit to Disney for staying hands off with Marvel. Winter Soldier is a stand out -- but I don't give Disney creative credit for that -- I give them huge points for their restraint. Here's hoping they keep it up.

[Similarly, Disney only gets partial credit for Pixar since they bought that too and Pixar's not exactly what it once was, right?]
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
I also want to add to Joe that Disney films(which includes Marvel) is really the
last case scenario where word-of-mouth can really have an big effect. Assuming the reviews for Big Hero 6 are as strong as the ones for Wreck-It-Ralph and Frozen, then I can really see people talking about this movie and seeing it in theaters in January. That's what happened with Frozen.

To try to keep news flowing in this thread, this just got rated PG.
 

roundshort

Active member
Joe Brody said:
-- are being made at just the studio level. So I do lay the collective RECENT live action and animation failure at Disney current leadership's feet. If all you got is Wreck-It-Ralph, you don't got much. Thinking about it for a second, has Disney done any decent guy targeted live action movies in recent memory apart from the first Pirates, Tron and that Paul Walker husky-dog movie? I usually look for Roundshort or Pale on these things.




You make the call -- will BH6 do better box office than Wreck-It-Ralph? And if so, by how much and what does it need to be a hit?


I have to agree with JB here. Disney has sucked for cashing on good old boy money and HAD to buy Marvel. Cars was a huge bang in that market and Disney is doing all it can to collect (Cars2, the Airplane movies, the HUGE investments CARS land in the parks.

Wreck it Ralph is not even a blimp and had zero after movie dollars in merchandise.

It seems like Disney has almost given up on tryignto cash in on boys and trying to pick the pockets of middleaged males who grew up to live action Disney movies - with middle aged movies - Million Dollar Arm, Saving Mr Banks. etc.

In the next cpl of years they want to cash in on guys by doing the same thing - Jungle Cruise, 2 new POTC movies, 20,000 leagues NEMO, Swiss Family, Tron 3, National Treasure 3 (really?)

looks like a lot of rebooting.....

Bigger questions - what do little boys like besides video games. What are the GI Joe, Star wars, Masters of the Universe, whatever? Girls at least do princess and dress up? Is there even a boy market other than Marvel costumes any more?
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
I think bringing up live-action Disney is irrelevant. Disney has, in all honesty, never been cutting edge with live-action films when animation isn't involved. While Disney executives might be involved with all of it, the animation department is still its own separate entity, and with Tangled, Wreck-It-Ralph and Frozen being very big hits critically and commercially, I see no reason why not to have trust in Big Hero 6. Especially when ever reaction to a clip of the movie I've seen has been positive. Especially when there won't any "family films" that'll be in direct competition with it.*

*No, I don't consider The Hunger Games a threat as that's supposed to be for more older crowds anyway. Harry Potter didn't exactly hurt Monster's Inc.'s #s for instance.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
Forbidden Eye said:
I think bringing up live-action Disney is irrelevant. Disney has, in all honesty, never been cutting edge with live-action films when animation isn't involved.

Seriously?

Study the chronology.

Granted,this reply is useless without pictures to make my point, but what about films like Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, all those cheesy special effects comedies from the sixties and seventies, the Witch Mountain movies were considered innovative, Black Hole -- hell, even my personal favorite Parent Trap was considered exceptional for work with Haley Mills playing two roles (other films had done this before but never so well).

As for doing male targeted films, scan the list. Disney helped define the male American image through film. Let's face it, this is the man who put Tom Sawyer's Island in Frontierland. Once Upon A Time, Disney had boys locked up. [Wait a minute, that didn't come out right.]
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Lots of activity while I've been absent. That's a good thing.


louise-knife.gif



The official New York City Comic Con trailer has found its way on-line, and it builds on the previous entries. There's finally some decent shots of the team, but the action aspect is still being played down to focus on the humor.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/d2S8D_SCAJY?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It remains visually impressive. And while a lot of the recent speculation in this thread has focused on the potential financial success of the movie, it completely misses what I was suggesting: Big Hero 6 is going to define "San Francisco" for future generations in much the same way the Beats, the Dead, and film noir did for earlier generations.
 

Joe Brody

Well-known member
I admit the new trailer showcases the beautiful animation and has a pulse but I suspect it shows too many good moments.

Le Saboteur said:
It remains visually impressive. And while a lot of the recent speculation in this thread has focused on the potential financial success of the movie, it completely misses what I was suggesting: Big Hero 6 is going to define "San Francisco" for future generations in much the same way the Beats, the Dead, and film noir did for earlier generations.

Even though I've got reason to back the film (I'm a Disney Fan and Baymax was inspired by Carnegie Mellon robotics), the more I think about it the more I'm coming out against this film for two reasons: (1) Disney going soft on male targeted films, and (2) the transmogrification of San Francisco.

Since I've already beat #1 into the ground, I'll go straight to #2.

San Francisco is American. Le Sab rightly identifies San Fran as one of our great cities (though Chi-town is a shade of a city compared to NYC). Robert Duvall captured what I'm talking about in describing his acting career:

Robert Duvall said:
“I was fortunate to be in the two big film epics of the last part of the 20th century: Godfather and “Lonesome Dove” on television, which was my favorite part. That’s my “Hamlet.” The English have Shakespeare; the French, Molière. In Argentina, they have Borges, but the western is ours. I like that.”

San Fran is one of our Westerns. I'm the first to acknowledge that what makes this country great is that we embrace and adopt foreign cultures. But the Japanification of San Fran at the expense of our landmarks is gimmicky and unless it is done for a good reason (like the one I suggested at the beginning of this thread), it is just flat our wrong. BH6's depiction of San Fran (with the alterations to the Golden Gate, lanterns on street cars and asian style terra cotta on victorian buildings) is a disservice to both American and Japanese cultures.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Joe Brody said:
San Fran is one of our Westerns. I'm the first to acknowledge that what makes this country great is that we embrace and adopt foreign cultures. But the Japanification of San Fran at the expense of our landmarks is gimmicky and unless it is done for a good reason (like the one I suggested at the beginning of this thread), it is just flat our wrong. BH6's depiction of San Fran (with the alterations to the Golden Gate, lanterns on street cars and asian style terra cotta on victorian buildings) is a disservice to both American and Japanese cultures.


Point of clarification: A very small portion of 'frisco's architecture is actually Victorian. (Oakland has more.) Much of the the city, and this is especially true of Downtown, is Edwardian & Mission Revival. Key points of the latter were adopted and transmogrified into California's now dominant architectural style, "Spanish Colonial." You'll also find a lot of Art Deco buildings erected after 1906, and depending on which part of the city we're talking about you'll find: Craftsman-style homes, Mid-Century Modern, Internationals, and the fugly Post Moderns. We won't even talk about the eyesores that the Sixties & Seventies inflicted upon the world.

Unfortunately, the future of San Francisco is vertical. And while watching the trailers, I see San Francisco. Or, a very credible representation of its future. There's plenty of Asian influence in the city already. Japantown, while it remains in name only, incorporates plenty of Asian influences into its architecture. Chinatown is the obvious answer -- they've blended Edwardian and Asian nearly seamlessly.

Character promo clips!

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/m781Nue7pu0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Outside of Baymax & Hiro, Go Go Tomago looks like she'll be the most fun.
 

roundshort

Active member
Joe Brody said:
I

San Francisco is American.


San Fran is one of our Westerns. I'm the first to acknowledge that what makes this country great is that we embrace and adopt foreign cultures. But the Japanification of San Fran at the expense of our landmarks is gimmicky and unless it is done for a good reason (like the one I suggested at the beginning of this thread), it is just flat our wrong. BH6's depiction of San Fran (with the alterations to the Golden Gate, lanterns on street cars and asian style terra cotta on victorian buildings) is a disservice to both American and Japanese cultures.


I have to agree with Joe here. Anyone who spends time in SF will tell you that the Asian influence is less and less every year. If they wanted an accurate future of SF, it would be filled with google busses transporting the tech people to San Jose and homeless people s****ing on the sidewalk. AND LITTLE else. SF is totally made of separate communities each are loosing personality. The Maria is a frat house that could easily be in Boston, Russian and Nob Hill are houses and apartments for the Rich. North Beach is just crap. SOMA is up and coming restaurants The finical district and Marina are hunting grounds for the homeless. SF is kinda a crappy city. Then lump on the weather I am confused why people love it so.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
roundshort said:
SF is kinda a crappy city. Then lump on the weather I am confused why people love it so.

Me and the wifey think it's a nice place to tourist, but I wouldn't want to stay there very long....
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Sorry for posting this late, but did want to point a couple things.

Joe Brody said:
Granted,this reply is useless without pictures to make my point, but what about films like Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, all those cheesy special effects comedies from the sixties and seventies, the Witch Mountain movies were considered innovative, Black Hole -- hell, even my personal favorite Parent Trap was considered exceptional for work with Haley Mills playing two roles (other films had done this before but never so well).

20,000 Leagues Under The Sea is more the exception. Films like The Love Bug, That Darn Cat! or others from the 1960s-early '80s might be fun for what they are, they don't exactly stand out in film history to the extent that Disney's best animated films do, or for that matter Indiana Jones. The Black Hole is primarily known for being a poor man's Star Wars.

While Disney's recent live-action films might be weak, I don't see how bringing that up is relevant to Big Hero 6. Did anybody think about The Lone Ranger when going to see Frozen. As long as the reviews are for it(and the early buzz I've read it pretty good) this can be a pretty decent sized hit. While Disney's image of masculinity might be a heavy weight to bring onto this film, I don't see why it can't live up to it.

I will kinda agree with you though that lumping "San Francisco" with "Tokyo" isn't really necessary, I think most will have no problem accepting it as San Francisco and just enjoy the atmosphere. And...

roundshort said:
I have to agree with Joe here. Anyone who spends time in SF will tell you that the Asian influence is less and less every year. If they wanted an accurate future of SF, it would be filled with google busses transporting the tech people to San Jose and homeless people s****ing on the sidewalk.

And where is the lack of Asian influence? :p
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
Joe Brody said:
Now watch Baymax in the kids bedroom knocking over some books with his large posterior and getting his gut stuffed into an armored girdle. I may well be wrong but do you seriously think boys are going to go for that?

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but ~50% of the people who pass the turnstile at Disneyland are childless couples, often in their late-twenties through late-thirties. Now imagine several evening audiences filled with nothing but similarly minded people and you've found your audience. While Disney wants families to spend all of their disposable income, they were never going to carry the day.


Joe Brody said:
You make the call -- will BH6 do better box office than Wreck-It-Ralph? And if so, by how much and what does it need to be a hit?

Yes, Big Hero 6 will do better box office than Wreck-it-Ralph. The people who track this kind of stuff for a living are already suggesting that it'll do ~$60-million over its opening weekend. That would put it at ~$10-million more than Ralph did in his debut. With Halloween right around the corner, that number could go up as Disney makes its last big advertising pustch. I'll put it @ $500-600-million when all is said and done.

There's some groovy new footage in the latest Japanese trailer, but be mindful as always of potential spoilers.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/6-dBI1R0AjU?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Meet the team!

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Baymax makes his public debut.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/87z-CjqMsiM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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