Has anyone's feelings for KOTCS softened?

The Drifter

New member
It hasn't softened, nor has it hardened. I'm in the same mindset as I was back in 2008. I like it but I don't love it. I like it but I don't hate it. I'm on the fence looking over both sides from time-to-time, but my rear may be edging closer to the 'liking it' side these days.

I just don't see how this debate can still be continuing after all these years. It's well trampled ground by now.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
The Drifter said:
I just don't see how this debate can still be continuing after all these years. It's well trampled ground by now.

There is no debate. Just opinion.

Back in the good old days of this forum:

replican?t said:
Less than zero suspense, and sphincter-clenchingly bad characters. Those are KOCS'' glaring faults. It's a film on rails, a parade of frames that move us inexorablly towards its creaking, cheesecrust conclusion. Spielberg and Lucas (and whichever overpaid moron was responsible for the excrementary script) should win an award for their film making here. Never before have I witnessed such a towering achievement in creating a film so utterly undemanding of involvement from its audience. All of the characters - from poor,shrugging, confused old Indy to his plastic surgerised annoying missus and punchable twat of a son, right the way down to the cardboard cut out Russians and cgi extras moonlighting between Madagascar sequels - are wheeled on so we can watch them dance and flop around with sh*t-eating grins, flailing motivations and blank eyes, seemingly oblivious to the fact that we ache for them to just clear off the screen sharpish so we can get on with more interesting stuff like the washing up and cutting our toenails.

Any film that makes me actively prefer to confront my own sorry life, well it's begging for a merciful bullet between the eyes. And a boot to the groin while it's going down, just to be sure.

http://raven.theraider.net/showpost.php?p=525388&postcount=576


Raiders112390 said:
Celebrate Nolan, peasant!!!!!!!!!!

ralph_wiggum___im_special_by_eduardorivera-d4nmrel.jpg
 

Indy's brother

New member
The Drifter said:
The same tired opinions that's been rehashed over and over again.

Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Indy's brother said:
Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.


Professor, this really is a dead end.
 

Gear

New member
Indy's brother said:
Indy's Bro: I barely recognize this forum anymore. The members've got us seeing trolls in our soup.

The Drifter: Brutal couple of years, huh, IB? First KOTCS, then the endless sh!t talking.

Indy's Bro: This forum seems to have reached the age where it stops giving us things and starts taking them away.


I'll nominate this for Best Dialogue of 2014 at The Raven come next year.
 

Le Saboteur

Active member
The Drifter said:
The same tired opinions that's been rehashed over and over again.

I should preface this with: I had zero intention of posting in this thread until I read this, but the kvetching about the carping and grousing is infinitely more irritating than everything that preceded it. Which begs the question, 'What exactly have you brought to the table lately?' Doors have been opened by myself and others, but if you're completely unwilling to step through them what privilege was afforded you to complain about the way the forum is being used? At least somebody is using it in some form however meager that form may be. The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.

Books? Wuzza book?! I only want see Harry punch Nazees in duh face!

And I'm already aware of the irony. Thank you.
 

The Drifter

New member
Le Saboteur said:
I should preface this with: I had zero intention of posting in this thread until I read this, but the kvetching about the carping and grousing is infinitely more irritating than everything that preceded it. Which begs the question, 'What exactly have you brought to the table lately?' Doors have been opened by myself and others, but if you're completely unwilling to step through them what privilege was afforded you to complain about the way the forum is being used? At least somebody is using it in some form however meager that form may be. The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.

Books? Wuzza book?! I only want see Harry punch Nazees in duh face!

And I'm already aware of the irony. Thank you.

Sigh...
I knew it wouldn't be long before you stopped posting about movies and video games long enough to rear your head in this thread yet again.
I've never claimed that I have brought anything to the table lately as I rarely even post here anymore. Also, what doors are you speaking of? Old serials? Superhero movies? Sinbad? Is it mandatory for each member to post in your threads now? I've glanced through your threads, and frankly they are dull and boring, and that sort of stuff just doesn't interests me. Sad, but true :(

Yep, if the things Le Sab posts do not arouse your interests, you're not an intellectual! Oh, give me a damn break. You sound like you're whining that people aren't posting in your threads - get over it.
And you speak of 'privilege'? I reckon I'm free to spout my thoughts as much as you are around here.

And as I said earlier. It's a never-ending circle here in this part of The Raven. People going back-and-forth over KotCS. It's been going on for years. It gets tiresome to see the unceasing bickering.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
Raiders112390 said:
Celebrate Nolan, peasant!!!!!!!!!!
Raiders112390, you've been here for over 7 years and should well know people's disposition on the subject of Indy 4 by now. Why do you even feel the need to ask the question? Instead of remarks like the above (in your own thread), why don't you tell us about the present status of YOUR OWN FEELINGS concerning "Crystal Skull" after 6 years. :confused:

C'mon, Raiders112390, be approachable within this community. What are you afraid of? (You've never even chosen a Raven Avatar. What's up with that?) :confused:
Le Saboteur said:
The only thing stopping anybody from changing the tone and direction of conversation around here is the demonstrated lack of intellectual curiosity. Which I have always found rather surprising for fans of a globetrotting archeologist.
Right. Beggars can't be choosers when they get thrown a bone.
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
At first, I was deeply disappointed by KOTCS. It felt like it was missing a certain magic, a certain undefinable magic. And in denial, I veered back and forth between hating it and loving it; my feelings wildly flip flopped on it and I wasn't sure what to think. With the passage of six years, I have a clearer mind on the subject....I think it's a good film. A dumb film, much more mindless entertainment than Raiders, it is kind of like a fusion of LC and TOD. The one element I dislike is Shia. Otherwise, the film is fine for what it was: a compromise effort. I think Lucas' original idea, the Saucerman script, would've made a much superior film with some tweaks and refinement, but as is, Skull merits a B, whereas Raiders is an A+ film, TOD is an A, and LC is an A. KOTCS is just good entertainment, no more, no less. Not worthy of astounding praise, but also not worthy of the vile hate and disdain it's gotten.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
Not worthy of astounding praise, but also not worthy of the vile hate and disdain it's gotten.

Exactly.

I've never claimed to love nor hate it.

It sits in the middle. There are glimpses of former greatness, and then there are things you don't want to see because you want to bury your head in your heads.

The earlier parts of the film create a fine sense of suspense. It's greatest sin is in the failure to make anything in the later parts mean enough to maintain attention. Characterization, situations and acting don't hold up well when set against those aspects from the first three films. KOTCS feels like a film that Lucas and Spielberg had to make, rather than the one they wanted to make. That's also apparent in the insincerity of some of the acting and the characters themselves.

It has nothing to do with some supposed battle between opposing film-makers. That can't be employed as an explanation for the way some feel about Indy 4, because the explanation is within Indy 4 itself.

Take the following as an example:

Avengers was a $220,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to reach for the fast forward button whenever the characters stopped talking.

Kick-Ass 2 was a $28,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to watch it twice in quick succession.

Jeff Wadlow quipped that he made Kick-Ass 2 on the Avengers catering budget.

Huge budgets and the possibilities enabled by CGI technology don't always make for better films in my opinion.

I know we have to take inflation into account but consider the budgets for the four films:

ROTLA $18,000,000
TOD $28,000,000
TLC $48,000,000
KOTC $185,000,000

The more money there's available the more chance there is that a film will go off in directions that wouldn't have been originally considered. And the more money that's spent the more people there are that have to be pleased, running the danger of not pleasing enough of them sufficiently.

KOTCS therefore feels disingenuous. Just as the YIJC do for different reasons.
 

roundshort

Active member
No. I had taken several years off of even thinking of this movie. Recently I wanted to give it another chance and remain open minded about it.

There is zero upside to it. The few scenes I remembered liking were horrible and the other 95% of the movie I hated were even worse.

I really can not think of 1 nice thing to say about it.

I hear that that using KOTCS has been banned as an integration device!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3dKqTjZO4
 

Raiders90

Well-known member
Montana Smith said:
Exactly.

I've never claimed to love nor hate it.

It sits in the middle. There are glimpses of former greatness, and then there are things you don't want to see because you want to bury your head in your heads.

The earlier parts of the film create a fine sense of suspense. It's greatest sin is in the failure to make anything in the later parts mean enough to maintain attention. Characterization, situations and acting don't hold up well when set against those aspects from the first three films. KOTCS feels like a film that Lucas and Spielberg had to make, rather than the one they wanted to make. That's also apparent in the insincerity of some of the acting and the characters themselves.

It has nothing to do with some supposed battle between opposing film-makers. That can't be employed as an explanation for the way some feel about Indy 4, because the explanation is within Indy 4 itself.

Take the following as an example:

Avengers was a $220,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to reach for the fast forward button whenever the characters stopped talking.

Kick-Ass 2 was a $28,000,000 super hero movie. I was compelled to watch it twice in quick succession.

Jeff Wadlow quipped that he made Kick-Ass 2 on the Avengers catering budget.

Huge budgets and the possibilities enabled by CGI technology don't always make for better films in my opinion.

I know we have to take inflation into account but consider the budgets for the four films:

ROTLA $18,000,000
TOD $28,000,000
TLC $48,000,000
KOTC $185,000,000

The more money there's available the more chance there is that a film will go off in directions that wouldn't have been originally considered. And the more money that's spent the more people there are that have to be pleased, running the danger of not pleasing enough of them sufficiently.

KOTCS therefore feels disingenuous. Just as the YIJC do for different reasons.

I think KOTCS feels half hearted and half baked in comparison to the original films. It almost feels unfinished or like a lot was left on the cutting room floor. You have some great, cool ideas: Spalko's telepathy, the Aliens as the teachers of humanity, the Ugha, but none of these are ever really explored to their fullest potential. Spalling never exhibits any real power and no real menace, the Aliens feel just thrown in there, Indy somehow gets redeemed at the end and the FBI no longer thinks he's a commie....it just feels very rushed. You'd think the film was the product of a first draft script rather than many rewrites.

I think Darabount's script, mixed with the Saucermen script, could've produced an amazing film.

I disagree with you on the YIJC as I feel that serious has a lot of heart. I always feel a sense of wonder when watching the Corey carrier episodes especially. The YIJC to me feels like an expansion on the wart warmth parts of LC. But can you explain why you feel the YIJC is disingenuous?
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Raiders112390 said:
But can you explain why you feel the YIJC is disingenuous?

Disingenuous in relation to Indiana Jones. Lucas set out to create edutainment with a series that would introduce children to famous people from history, and used Indy as the mechanism to link it all together.

While it was very well made with lavish sets and big set pieces, for much of the time it doesn't feel honest towards Indy himself. There are rare occasions of real adventure. Then there are the episodes that really destroy the illusion: the Kafkaesque farce; the Halloween tale about Dracula; and the sum total of influential people he happened to encounter wherever he went. Old Indy himself had even become a figure of fun.

Then there's the issue of linking young Indy to the mercenary Indy of 1935. Since he was still so upbeat in 1920, whatever made him the way he was in Temple of Doom was something even worse than the horrors he would have experienced during the Great War. Even after meeting all those people who imparted so much knowledge and inspiration, and remaining so upbeat after the war, Indy somehow becomes a rogue and a thief. (It was quite a delayed reaction since Fedora had left an impression on him way back in 1912 according to TLC).

So what we also get with the YIJC is Lucas beginning to redeem Indy from the dark side (the dangerous anti-hero we first see in Peru in 1936, and darker still at the beginning of TOD).

KOTCS directly references the YIJC with the Pancho Villa quip, thereby bringing the television series into film canon. It's also the film in which Indy makes amends for his treatment of Marion; and where we are instructed that real treasure is knowledge, which is at odds with Indy's former obsession with claiming the prize (which was shared by the likes of Belloq, Mola Ram, Donovan and Elsa).

In his early career Lucas was happy to present lovable rogues like Indy or Han Solo. In his later career he appears to be concerned with making them more respectable as role models. It's not so much a character arc as a creator arc, and it sets KOTCS and the YIJC apart.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Montana Smith said:
While it was very well made with lavish sets and big set pieces, for much of the time it doesn't feel honest towards Indy himself. There are rare occasions of real adventure. Then there are the episodes that really destroy the illusion: the Kafkaesque farce; the Halloween tale about Dracula; and the sum total of influential people he happened to encounter wherever he went. Old Indy himself had even become a figure of fun.
While I agree with the rest of the criticism, I don't really get the bolded part. Because in YIJC, said figures were, most of the time, part of the scenery. They didn't really do nothing more than send Indy into places where he was more likely to brush shoulders with said people than not. It was not like he was hanging around in one place for the whole series, like on the stool of his regular bar and have all these celebrities just pop in for a drink due to some mystical coincidence.

There is really nothing wrong with concept of employing a historical ensemble cast - as long as it's done right. And YIJC did it so, because Indy never ran into people in places where it made no sense for them to be.
 
Top