Irina Spalko - Great Villain

JediJones said:
I'm inclined to agree with Spielberg that Spalko is the best villain in the entire Indy series.
Sources PLEASE!
JediJones said:
Simply put, which of all the villains would you rather see an entire spinoff movie devoted to? Belloq? Boring and French.
It speaks volumes that's all you took from his character.
JediJones said:
Spalko has everything. Great bad-ass fighting skills, spooky supernatural powers, intelligent dialogue, motivated by a misguided but patriotic pride in her socialist country as well as scientific theory as opposed to just a quest for artifacts or the desire to kill people, exotic accent and seductive looks.
She fought a high school drop out and cut him on the cheek.:rolleyes: But I did like the kick she connects with Mutts face.
She had NO powers.
What dialog was intelligent?
There was no indication her "patriotism" was anything more than a means to her own ends, and her end illustrates that.
Pride in scientific theory? Huh? Where?
I guess we have to differ on the exotic accent because it sounded like a cartoon to me especially the way she would monologue point and yell the majority of the time.
Seductive looks?:eek:

JediJones said:
Blanchett...give the best performances of the series' villains, showing convincing emotion that goes beyond the printed lines of the screenplay
Where?!
goodeknight said:
But he's the one that says, "Do you realize what this is? It's a transmitter for speaking to God." (with God?) And he believes it. Perhaps not as a devout Jew, but he believes in it enough to don the gear and perform the ritual to the Bible's standards. At the same time, he is still a mercenary, and calls himself such. But the Nazis will only get the Ark after he's finished with it.
I always took that as Belloqs way of appealing to others passions, (or what he believes to be). That he has plans for the ark doesn't support any belief in God as much as he's trying to pull strings and using the kind of speech that will effect his victory. Whether the power is perceived or real he wants it, and who is it that truly believes and thinks he can control God?
goodeknight said:
Indy tags along half the time helping her in her quest. What's up with that? They really give no solid explanation as to why Indy helps them get the alien mummy in Hangar 51. They say, "Go fetch," and he obliges. And he cuts to the chase and does it quickly. He didn't even stall. Later in the jungle he's all over the translating and figuring out the maps, etc. It takes Mutt to get some real action going. It doesn't seem Indy is that concerned with their escape.
The film is poorly written and executed.
JediJones said:
These are Indiana Jones movies, so you can't expect to really "get to know" the characters. Characterization is written in shorthand in these films. And I thought it was done better with Spalko than with most. I get a really good sense of who she is, such that I can make a good prediction on how she might act if she were thrust into a new situation.
You can't expect to get to know them, but you could predict (well enough) what Spalko would do?

That you know what a villain is capable of defeats any surprise, tension and ultimately learning complex motivations, but as you put it, and I paraphrase it: Spalko is a one note cartoon villain...and that's OK if you want it/like it but it surely doesn't make her great.
JediJones said:
Spalko in fact takes most of the best qualities of the previous villains and puts them in one package, Belloq's intelligence...
Lets add:
Boring
French
Best Villain Performances of the series (+/- Spalko: To be determined)
Convincing emotion beyond screenplay
Intelligent
JediJones said:
Spalko was a case where we were really properly shown who she was as a character rather than told.
She reads her resume from her first moments on screen, otherwise she monologues, points, screams...what they show us is that she's a fraud.
JediJones said:
I don't think it was that effective to basically have Belloq sit there and describe who he is through dialogue...And the whole "it would take only a nudge to make you like me" conversation didn't really have much weight, because we know so little about who Belloq is and what he's done. All we know is he hired some natives to steal the idol from Indy and then kill Indy, and he was willing to work with the Nazis.
♫Getting to know you, getting to know all about you♪...

That's what its about: suspense. We know he and Jones have a past and that Belloq is screwing the Hovitos. That he's comfortable ordering him dead its all we need to know and Raiders does a phenomenal job advancing the story while maintaining the suspense. The nudge conversation isn't meant to "have much weight" its meant to forward the story and reveal character. He said what he needed to provoke Indy, and he did...Indy went from considering killing him to going for his gun. It was another great fight scene, a break from the action to an improbable one on one where we get motivation, not lengthy boring posturing with Indy shackled to a chair.

In that scene we're exactly like Indy...being force fed Spalko's line of crap.
JediJones said:
Belloq suffers as a villain because it's hard to really hate him.
What movie were you watching? What redeeming qualities does he show?

Is it:
JediJones said:
He tries to protect Marion for one thing and he never does anything directly violent
Its quite clear he wants something from Marion and he reacts aptly: "The girl was mine"...
JediJones said:
Recast Belloq without the French accent (Tom Selleck?) and it'd be easy to forget that he even was a villain.
HA! you're funny, its plain you're goofing. You're all over the place!
JediJones said:
The point wasn't to have her use the powers directly.
What was the point? That she was a fake phony fraud?
JediJones said:
Having a character running around reading minds all the time wouldn't be something we'd want to see in an Indiana Jones movie.
Sure, but if you're going to indulge the conceit, what's the point in spending time with the potential to read minds if it NEVER comes into play?

Spielberg must have meant to show she's a phony.
JediJones said:
I like the fact that we never really find out if she really has that power at all or is just delusional. The Indiana Jones movies always flirt with the idea of whether the artifacts really have powers or don't. So the idea that Spalko's powers may or may not be there fits in with that sense of toying with the supernatural but not putting the whole movie in the supernatural world from start to finish.
I don't, its a red herring that only distracts from a poorly written film, like the switchblade rip and many other examples its content that goes nowhere and does nothing.
JediJones said:
Where I think the movie sags is when they have the skull and suddenly its supernatural powers start motivating the action throughout the jungle scenes.
They went off the rails, showing supernatural phenomena too early...
JediJones said:
Nevertheless, the idea of Spalko having an interest in psychic powers is organic to the plot...
What does that mean?
JediJones said:
That really has nothing to do with her character and everything to do with the fact that the screenplay was backed into a corner and needed Oxley to be doing something at that moment that only Indy, not the Russians could figure out.
How do you know that? It has EVERYTHING to do with her character, it shows a failing of her actual perception beyond the failing of her psychic perception
 
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Brooke Logan

New member
One problem I have with Spalko is that I almost liked her too much and/or felt sorry for her and didn't want to see her meet her demise.

Not that I'm a violent person, but I did get a sort of satisfaction at seeing the defeat of Belloq and Mola Ram, and while I admit I feel a little bit sorry for Donovan, I still felt sorrier for Spalko.

Maybe it's just Cate Blanchett being so pretty.:D I don't know.

But in any case, she just must not have come across to me as dastardly enough to really feel she deserved her end.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Its quite clear he wants something from Marion and he reacts aptly: "The girl was mine"...

Agreed. I never saw his "caring" about Marion as a sign of Belloq being a good person, just that he was physically attracted to Marion. If Marion had been homely or a male friend of Indy's, I highly doubt Belloq would care what happened to this person.
 

JediJones

Active member
Spielberg said Spalko was his favorite Indy villain in an interview on the DVD features and in the below article.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20192040_2,00.html

SPIELBERG: She's a very threatening villain. Of all the villains I've been able to work with in the Indiana Jones movies, I can say she's my favorite. And I think Cate made her that way. We gave her a template for this, but she invented the character.
 

Goodeknight

New member
Brooke Logan said:
I never saw his "caring" about Marion as a sign of Belloq being a good person, just that he was physically attracted to Marion. If Marion had been homely or a male friend of Indy's, I highly doubt Belloq would care what happened to this person.

It also occurred to me recently that Belloq may have simply wanted to add one more item to his collection of things Indiana Jones once possessed that he now has. Since he takes not only the fertility idol but also Indy's whip and gun, he may have a display case filled with Webleys and whips.
 
JediJones said:
Spielberg said Spalko was his favorite Indy villain in an interview on the DVD features and in the below article.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20192040_2,00.html

SPIELBERG: She's a very threatening villain. Of all the villains I've been able to work with in the Indiana Jones movies, I can say she's my favorite. And I think Cate made her that way. We gave her a template for this, but she invented the character.
Something tells me he was "selling cars"...

Shia LaBeouf Regrets Spielberg Dig
The actor "deeply regrets" his negative comments about Indiana Jones, revealing they ruptured his relationship with Steven Spielberg. "He told me there's a time to be a human being and have an opinion, and there's a time to sell cars,"
 

JediJones

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Something tells me he was "selling cars"...

Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
JediJones said:
Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.

Spielberg also said the fridge and the gophers were his idea.
 
Irina Spalko: A fecking t-shirt. At best

JediJones said:
Nope. No reason for him to go out on that far of a limb. He could've just said she's a great villain, an original villain, etc. And in the same documentaries he discusses his issues with Lucas over developing the script. But, whatever. You have your own opinions that you seem to think are facts, enough to claim they're more valid than actual facts that are presented to you.


Sales. Regarding those documentary discussions, when you're a hired gun directing a film you didn't want to make, titled for an object you don't like, you have to accentuate the positive. In context it doesn't come off as such a lengthy limb after all.

He could have offered a money back guarantee...but "whatever".

How do you conclude I substitute opinions for facts and claim my opinions are more valid than facts?

I presented my opinions and quotes to support them.

That they differ or oppose yours hardly supports your leap in logic. Your dismissive "whatevers" and claims, regarding facts v opinion don't service your grasp of the subject or indicate comprehensive insight.

Bottom line, Spalko is not a great villain. In a world of never ending opinions on film, there's no ongoing voice discussing the villainy of Irina Spalko and its "superlatives" beyond this fan site.

Paraphrasing a well written villain:

...what she's done is not going to be puzzled over...and studied...and followed...ever.

Except by fellow delusional types.

You have an Irina Spalco T-Shirt?;)
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
You have an Irina Spalko T-Shirt?;)

Preferably one showing off her best assets.

Irina_Spalko_____by_Oddmachine.jpg



In this she displays greater qualities than Belloq, Toht, Mola, Vogel or Donovan combined.

Spielberg really dropped the ball in not showing more of this great villain.
 

Stoo

Well-known member
JediJones said:
Simply put, which of all the villains would you rather see an entire spinoff movie devoted to? Belloq? Boring and French.
---
Recast Belloq without the French accent (Tom Selleck?) and it'd be easy to forget that he even was a villain.
Even though you like the fact that Spalko has an "exotic accent", according to you:

1) One of the two main reasons you wouldn't be interested in seeing a movie about Belloq is because he is French.
2) You think Belloq's ONLY villainous trait is his French accent.

Why is his French nationality unappealing to you?:confused: Does a French accent automatically make a character a villain?:confused:

(Something tells me that you don't like the French. Thanks for letting us know.:rolleyes:)
JediJones said:
Spalko was a case where we were really properly shown who she was as a character rather than told.
Did you fall asleep during the movie?:confused: The dialogue about Spalko's past tells a lot of information about her and is much MORE than was given for any other villain in all 4 films. Plus, her psychic ability is talked about but NEVER shown.

(You've made many other ridiculous comments but these were the top ones.)
 

Henry W Jones

New member
JediJones said:
He tries to protect Marion for one thing and he never does anything directly violent, although he tries to kill Indy through surrogates

1) Whether you pull the trigger or order it, violence is violence. A mob boss is still committing a violent act when they put a hit on someone. Belloq is willing to steal, be part of murder and work with the Nazi party to obtain his goals. Sounds pretty evil to me.
2) Do you call people you care about as "compensation"? Do you tell someone, "If this person I care about fails to please me you may do her as you wish. I'll waste no more time with her". Belloq didn't care about her, he just was trying to get laid. Nice guy.
 
Brooke Logan said:
One problem I have with Spalko is that I almost liked her too much and/or felt sorry for her and didn't want to see her meet her demise.
She had an air of indifference that was most likely something that kept her from being engaging.

"How fortunate our failure to kill you, Dr. Jones. You survive to be of service to us once again" comes off as a flowery: "whatever"

Brooke Logan said:
If Marion had been homely or a male friend of Indy's, I highly doubt Belloq would care what happened to this person.
(y)

They did film the "execution" of Sallah...
 

Goodeknight

New member
Stoo said:
Does a French accent automatically make a character a villain?:confused:
Duh! The French are all evil. Just go to Paris. You'll see! -- Kidding. The people of rural France are generally very nice. Didn't go to Paris. I think Parisians could give mercenaries a bad name.

Stoo said:
The dialogue about Spalko's past tells a lot of information about her and is much MORE than was given for any other villain in all 4 films. Plus, her psychic ability is talked about but NEVER shown.
Yeah, what other villain gets his own file shown on camera and practically read aloud?

Spielberg is notoriously in-your-face when it comes to exposition. Raiders was great. Something like the killer plant exposition scene in Minority Report is Spielberg at his worst. In Spalko's case (file), all she amounts to is hollow exposition.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Stoo said:
1) One of the two main reasons you wouldn't be interested in seeing a movie about Belloq is because he is French.
2) You think Belloq's ONLY villainous trait is his French accent.

...Does a French accent automatically make a character a villain?


It makes a change. For the Star Wars OT George was casting the British as villains and camp golden robots.
 

JediJones

Active member
Stoo said:
1) One of the two main reasons you wouldn't be interested in seeing a movie about Belloq is because he is French.

2) You think Belloq's ONLY villainous trait is his French accent.

The dialogue about Spalko's past tells a lot of information about her and is much MORE than was given for any other villain in all 4 films. Plus, her psychic ability is talked about but NEVER shown.

Frenchmen are not that compelling as protagonists to me which makes me disinclined to want to see a Belloq movie.

I never said Belloq's only villainous trait is his French accent. Way to exaggerate. I simply said his French accent is the primary cue that he is a villain, because everyone knows Lucas/Spielberg and American action movies in general tend to have actors with foreign accents play their villains.

Much of what is "shown" about Irina is through her acting. It's a strong performance that communicates a lot about her personality and character that takes it beyond the printed pages of the script. A movie character is supposed to go beyond their "traits" as written in the script or their biography, otherwise they come off as flat. Blanchett takes Spalko's character that distance in a way that no previous Indiana Jones villain was able to. As I said before, Belloq was the one who came closest to showing that kind of palpable emotional depth. The rest of them show up, do what the script requires them to, and don't seem like real people with actual thoughts, feelings and histories. That may not be too detrimental to the movies, since the villains aren't really main characters.

I think the movie that suffered the most from weak villains was the Last Crusade. Donovan is as bland as they come. Elsa serves as a useless sidekick to the hero before the "reveal" and a useless sidekick to the villain after the reveal. You could cut her out of the movie and probably not have to change one thing about the plot.
 
JediJones said:
Much of what is "shown" about Irina is through her acting. It's a strong performance that communicates a lot about her personality and character that takes it beyond the printed pages of the script.
Help me out here...I'd love to see her performance through new eyes because I thought just the opposite.

What parts are you talking about? Some details would be appreciated.
 

Crack that whip

New member
Spalko suffers a bit among Indy villains because there are so many really great ones - Mola Ram is a great one and Belloq is just outstanding, and even some of the supporting villains from Raiders are excellent, such as Toht. However, for me Spalko does manage to at least hold her own, and in particular I do think she's at least a stronger and more compelling lead adversary than Walter Donovan - a stronger challenger mentally / intellectually than he is, and as a physical opponent she's probably actually the second strongest lead villain, beaten only by Mola Ram.

As with most other aspects of the movie, the character is done a disservice by the half-baked script, but the raw potential brought by the story (as opposed to the script) is still there, and the performance and direction help realize it even when the script doesn't. I honestly think she's a fine Indy villain.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
I basically agree with your points but arrive at a harsher conclusion. She was a villain of great potential and Blanchett brought a lot to the character. But she's ultimately a lightweight villain for me because she wasn't given the opportunity to be really menacing, and because the movie kind of throws out this idea of her maybe having psychic powers and then going absolutely nowhere with it.

I definitely agree that she inherently carries a lot more intrigue that Walter Donovan. However, Donovan had that defining moment where he shot the hero's dad in the chest. Spalko never earned her stripes. Really, she and Dovchenko were more ruthless and driven than they were ever nasty, and you know, that's valid, but I feel like in Indiana Jones the sadistic sneering comic book baddie that you love to hate just needs to be represented somewhere. There was no counterpart to Toht or Mola Ram or Vogel or Darabont's array of bastards in Crystal Skull - the guys who loved what they do. You're pretty much asked to hate the bad guys in this movie on the basis of them being the ones in the bad guy uniforms. The FBI agents were the biggest dicks of the movie! That's kind of ridiculous.
 
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