Irina Spalko - Great Villain

Montana Smith

Active member
Udvarnoky said:
The FBI agents were the biggest dicks of the movie! That's kind of ridiculous.

I suppose that's the nature of the period. Fear of Communism meant the US government was probably spending as much time spying on Americans as on the Soviets themselves.

Extreme vigilance makes for an oppressive state.

In the context of the film it's one more measure used to marginalize Indy.

Spalko isn't particularly evil, but another version of Indy himself: a treasure hunter sent on a mission by her government. Just as Indy was a treasure hunter sent on a mission by his own government in 1936.

The difference is that she's a little more pro-active with the violence, in that the first stage involved engaging in undeclared war on a US facility. But, considering relations between the two countries, she probably felt justified.

The end justifies the means - taking control of a weapon before America gets hold of it.

Indy had similar intentions in 1936. Killing German soldiers to save more lives in the future.
 
Udvarnoky said:
Donovan had that defining moment where he shot the hero's dad in the chest.

That alone puts Donovan above Spalko. They both issue orders to henchmen, though Spalko's barks are overt.

Udvarnoky said:
Spalko never earned her stripes.
Never.

Udvarnoky said:
Really, she and Dovchenko were more ruthless and driven.
Can't agree with that at all.

Donovan Spends his money, not an entire nation's. Spalko gave Mutt a cute scar but most important, Donovan pulls the trigger literally and figuratively.

Spalko stuck her sword in a bag.

NOT great.
 
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Crack that whip

New member
Montana Smith said:
Spalko isn't particularly evil, but another version of Indy himself: a treasure hunter sent on a mission by her government. Just as Indy was a treasure hunter sent on a mission by his own government in 1936.

The difference is that she's a little more pro-active with the violence, in that the first stage involved engaging in undeclared war on a US facility. But, considering relations between the two countries, she probably felt justified.

The end justifies the means - taking control of a weapon before America gets hold of it.

Indy had similar intentions in 1936. Killing German soldiers to save more lives in the future.

That's an insightful perspective, although I still think Indy isn't quite the same. He doesn't initiate the violence - all his killing ultimately comes after the bad guys have already gone after him:

The first people killed in Raiders are Satipo and Barranca, whom Indy doesn't actually kill himself, even though Barranca pulls a gun on him and Satipo leaves him to die; he's carrying a gun, but doesn't pull it out until he relinquishes it to Belloq.

The first people Indy actually himself kills in Raiders are goons in the Raven, after they've already threatened / attacked not only him, but Marion as well. It's only now, as both he and Marion are being shot at and threatened with torture, that he starts shooting at people himself.

Even after that, when he and Marion are attacked in the Cairo marketplace, he first fights off his attackers non-lethally with his whip and his fists, pulling his gun only after he's confronted by the swordsman in an attack that promises to be both time-consuming as well as possibly deadly, at a time when he (Indy) is desperately searching for Marion. He kills the swordsman without hesitation or regret, but this is in defense both of himself and of Marion.

By the time he finally starts freely dispensing death to his own adversaries during the truck chase, he's been repeatedly beaten, shot at, and even entombed alive with thousands of venomous snakes in what must be to him the most horrific potentially deadly scenario he could possibly imagine; it's also possible he and Sallah eventually realized the dates were poisoned (though we can't be sure, of course, but still). When he goes after the Ark convoy, it's true he's not holding back at all and kills people as freely as he just kicks them off the truck, but by this point they've made so many attempts on his life I think he could be excused for not particularly caring.

Spalko, on the other hand, is ruthlessly killing people (through her subordinates, granted, but still) from the very first moment she enters the Indyverse. She herself is under orders, but it's clear she doesn't really give a damn whether she kills people or not.

From her description in the tent of the Soviets' grand plans for the skull and its secrets, it's furthermore clear she's not merely acting to keep the USSR's adversary from getting a weapon; she's acting to ensure the USSR is able to use it to achieve global dominance. With Indy's mission to nab the Ark for Uncle Sam, there isn't really the same thing - there's no understanding that the US will use the Ark to conquer all other nations or anything like that, only to keep Hitler's forces from doing the same.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Rocket Surgeon said:
Can't agree with that at all.

I think you misread what I was saying there. I was not contrasting them with Donovan in that sentence.

The historical context and "relativity of ruthlessness" discussion we've wandered into is interesting and all, but what are we intending to communicate with it?
 
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Montana Smith

Active member
Crack that whip said:
From her description in the tent of the Soviets' grand plans for the skull and its secrets, it's furthermore clear she's not merely acting to keep the USSR's adversary from getting a weapon; she's acting to ensure the USSR is able to use it to achieve global dominance. With Indy's mission to nab the Ark for Uncle Sam, there isn't really the same thing - there's no understanding that the US will use the Ark to conquer all other nations or anything like that, only to keep Hitler's forces from doing the same.

But in the end all she really wanted to possess the 'treasure' for herself.

As I've written before, she's another Indyverse obsessive - like Belloq, Henry Sr., Elsa, or Indy himself.

Their obsessions push them in directions that create conflict.
 
Montana Smith said:
Their obsessions push them in directions that create conflict.
But is she a "great villain"?

In the words of your boy Shia: No, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no , no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Rocket Surgeon said:
But is she a "great villain"?

In the words of your boy Shia: No, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no , no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no, no, no, no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no ,no

And in the word of Vader's latest incarnation: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"
 

Crack that whip

New member
Montana Smith said:
But in the end all she really wanted to possess the 'treasure' for herself.

As I've written before, she's another Indyverse obsessive - like Belloq, Henry Sr., Elsa, or Indy himself.

Their obsessions push them in directions that create conflict.

Sure - but what would she have done with it after she'd gotten it, had she survived the "gift"?

I think Belloq's line "All in good time..." applies to her, too - she'd likely have turned it over to her government as directed, after she was finished with it... unless it gave her power enough to take them on, too...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Crack that whip said:
Sure - but what would she have done with it after she'd gotten it, had she survived the "gift"?

It's never something that George has to think about. Belloq, Elsa, Mola and Spalko are finished off, Henry Sr. reconciles himself with his son, and Indy has the Ark taken from him.

Crack that whip said:
I think Belloq's line "All in good time..." applies to her, too - she'd likely have turned it over to her government as directed, after she was finished with it... unless it gave her power enough to take them on, too...

I think she wanted it for herself. Demanding of the aliens to know everything would, if it had worked, given her the edge over everyone else. If she'd succeeded she might have become a villain of repute.
 
Montana Smith said:
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!"
Right. When you think "great villain" the first image that comes to mind is not Irina Spalko...the 131st image that "springs" to mind is not Irina Spalko.

In the lineup with Indy Villains she's still dead last.
 

Crack that whip

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Rocket Surgeon said:
Right. When you think "great villain" the first image that comes to mind is not Irina Spalko...the 131st image that "springs" to mind is not Irina Spalko.

In the lineup with Indy Villains she's still dead last.

If you consider Walter Donovan actually a sympathetic figure, perhaps.

Well... different strokes, as they say. I'll just have to respectfully disagree.
 

Brooke Logan

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
In the lineup with Indy Villains she's still dead last.

I agree with this. I think Spalko is one of the better features of CS, but is my least favorite among villains.

Donovan is not as colorful as Belloq or Mola Ram, but I think some of his banality was supposed to be part of his character. It's supposed to surprise us that this seemingly ordinary (albeit extremely wealthy) man was behind the troubles and was capable of shooting Henry.

He could be any ordinary man who is so afraid of dying/desiring immortality that he can lose all sense of morality and do evil things.

Spalko's abilities/powers, etc., as others have said, were touched upon but never went into enough.

Also, Donovan's/Glover's chemistry with his fellow villains Elsa and Vogel was a lot better than any interaction between Irina and any of her henchman, so it makes up for anything lacking in Donovan himself because he clicked well as part of a trio of evil with Elsa and Vogel.

But then again to me all the characterizations in CS were lacking, which is what I think is the worst part of the film, not the artifact, aliens or monkeys/prairie dogs/ants.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Brooke Logan said:
But then again to me all the characterizations in CS were lacking, which is what I think is the worst part of the film, not the artifact, aliens or monkeys/prairie dogs/ants.

Well said, though I might add that the prairie dogs were also poorly characterized. :)
 

Brooke Logan

New member
Montana Smith said:
Well said, though I might add that the prairie dogs were also poorly characterized. :)

lol I'll go along with that.

CS was on USA today, I put it on as nothing better was on. I just didn't feel the characters meshed well together. And that's something that was such a strength in the other three films, everyone had outstanding chemistry, vibes and relationships with one another. I am not sure why that was so missing with CS.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Brooke Logan said:
lol I'll go along with that.

CS was on USA today, I put it on as nothing better was on. I just didn't feel the characters meshed well together. And that's something that was such a strength in the other three films, everyone had outstanding chemistry, vibes and relationships with one another. I am not sure why that was so missing with CS.

Yes, KOTCS looked to me very much like a paycheque movie, rather than than a team effort with any honour or kudos attached to it.

Were it not for Harrison Ford it might have been called Jack Hunter and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. No villain could fare well within that environment.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Something that becomes abundantly clear upon reflection is that Harrison Ford pretty much carried this movie whatever distance it compassed.
 

Nurhachi1991

Well-known member
When I think of Spalko.....

dat_ass.jpg
 
Crack that whip said:
If you consider Walter Donovan actually a sympathetic figure, perhaps.
I don't but still do, so can you explain your take on sympathetic figures?

Crack that whip said:
Well... different strokes, as they say. I'll just have to respectfully disagree.
Don't leave yet! You're just getting interesting!;)

Nurhachi1991 said:
When I think of Spalko.....

dat_ass.jpg
Looks like Malcolm X with down syndrome...yo.
 

Crack that whip

New member
Rocket Surgeon said:
I don't but still do, so can you explain your take on sympathetic figures?


Don't leave yet! You're just getting interesting!;)

Oh, I don't know that I can offer much more than I have already. I just meant that I consider Irina Spalko a stronger, more compelling villain than Walter Donovan. That's not to say I think Donovan is a completely uninteresting villain, or that I think he's not a villain; I just think Spalko's a better one. You don't concur. We've both explained why, and neither of us has changed the other's mind. I don't think there's much more to it than that.
 
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