Montana Smith
Active member
As an ignorant child, I too gave the Hitlergruß in Germany - at Europa Park to be precise. I blamed Freddie Starr, as he was popular at the time for his Hitler impersonation routine.
davidraphael said:@Monkey: It's hard to know where to start correcting your erroneous statements...
Before you consider your bandana...
neverAcquiesce said:You can't even do it under the guise of an evil character for entertainment...
davidraphael said:It's a fine line.
I'm not especially pro-political-correctness, so I think there are ways of employing Nazi symbolism (or, for that matter, any contentious iconography or subject) in art, serious drama, satire or parody. It all depends on the context.
These motifs should be used carefully and with sensitivity.
Many people don't have that kind of skill, so they should leave well alone.
Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.Montana Smith said:The Nazis weren't a special case. Not worse than the Soviets. Or the worst excesses of the British Empire - which eventually gave the world the modern concept of the concentration camp during the Boer war.
Well in the free market it's shock that sells advertising...and it's all about the almighty dollar/euro/rupee...(maybe not so mighty these days).Montana Smith said:The media shouldn't shrink from presenting the uncomfortable truth, nor should it belittle it.
Even Lucas danced the line reagrding toys for tots that parents would buy. The headless Jango didn't inclue a head, why there wasn't more outcry against a pregnant Padme "action" figure was and wasn't surprising. Where was the birthing table and twins accesories?Montana Smith said:Maybe that's why Disney doesn't put swastikas on their toys any more...
Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!Montana Smith said:In the case of Raiders I'd argue there was a fine line. We see a pulp personification of evil, and a gross mishandling of history, but at least it wasn't afraid to show a flawed hero. It wasn't an entirely crass flag-waving piece of propaganda.
Rocket Surgeon said:Sometimes I wonder Monsieur, whether people have that clearly in mind.
...
Swastikas are easy, and I wouldn't expect them on the Lego Flying Wing, though I would expect them on a model kit.
Rocket Surgeon said:Gross? Really? The Ark acted exactly as it should have!
davidraphael said:Provocation just for the sheer sake of it lacks integrity and, ultimately, power.
davidraphael said:Yes, the swastika has been demonised (which in some ways is a shame for Buddhism, from which the 3rd Reich stole it -and flipped it). Indeed, Stalin killed millions. There are a list of human atrocities committed by states and individuals as long as your arm.
The simple and plain difference is that the nazi swastika has come to be highly symbolic of holocaust atrocities. The hammer and sickle has not - it is generally more symbolic of communism and sovietism as a whole (though of course Stalin's crimes are included in that)
ATHENS, Greece (AP) — AEK Athens midfielder Giorgos Katidis has earned rebukes from politicians, fellow athletes and fans after giving a Nazi salute in celebration of a goal he scored in the Greek league.
Photographs show him giving a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal in the 84th minute over visiting Veria on Saturday. In one photo, Katidis' Brazilian-born teammate, Roger Guerreiro, looks at him with an expression of astonishment.
The 20-year-old Katidis pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture — right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.
AEK's German coach Ewald Lienen, said the player doesn't have an "idea about politics."
ATHENS, Greece (AP) -- Greek soccer player Giorgos Katidis has been banned from his national team for life after giving a Nazi salute while celebrating a goal in the topflight league.
Greece's soccer federation said Sunday in a statement that the AEK Athens midfielder's gesture "is a deep insult to all victims of Nazi brutality."
The 20-year-old Katidis gave a Nazi salute after scoring the go-ahead goal Saturday in AEK's 2-1 victory over Veria in the Greek league. He pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture - right arm extended and hand straightened. He claimed on his Twitter account that he detests fascism.
AEK and the Greek league are considering separate sanctions. AEK fans have demanded Katidis' dismissal from the team.
Katidis has played for Greek national junior teams but not the senior side.
Katidis pleaded ignorance of the meaning of his gesture
WilliamBoyd8 said:This scene from the 1947 film "The Red Pony" showing American children doing a Nazi salute
really creeped me out when I saw it on television in the 1960's:
Gear said:An up-turned palm "Nazi salute"?
WilliamBoyd8 said:To a kid watching television in the 1960's, with no technology for freezing frames, that looked like a Nazi salute.
In one of the school scenes, the children say the Pledge of Allegiance with their right arms extended, pointed toward the flag. This was the Bellamy Salute suggested by Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original version of the Pledge. Due to its similarity to the Nazi and Fascist salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt changed the position to hand-over-the-heart. This was later codified into law in 1942.
The Bellamy salute is the salute described by Francis Bellamy to accompany the American Pledge of Allegiance, which he had authored. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute". During the 1920s and 1930s, Italian fascists and Nazis adopted salutes which were similar in form, resulting in controversy over the use of the Bellamy salute in the United States. It was officially replaced by the hand-over-heart salute when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.
The inventor of the saluting gesture was James B. Upham, junior partner and editor of The Youth's Companion.[1] Bellamy recalled Upham, upon reading the pledge, came into the posture of the salute, snapped his heels together, and said "Now up there is the flag; I come to salute; as I say 'I pledge allegiance to my flag,' I stretch out my right hand and keep it raised while I say the stirring words that follow."[1]
The Bellamy salute was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day":
The initial civilian salute was replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy.
In the 1920s, Italian fascists adopted the Roman salute to symbolize their claim to have revitalized Italy on the model of ancient Rome. This was quickly copied by the German Nazis, creating the Nazi salute. The similarity to the Bellamy salute led to confusion, especially during World War II. From 1939 until the attack on Pearl Harbor, detractors of Americans who argued against intervention in World War II produced propaganda using the salute to lessen those Americans' reputations. Among the anti-interventionist Americans was aviation pioneer Charles Lindbergh. Supporters of Lindbergh's views would claim that Lindbergh did not support Adolf Hitler, and that pictures of him appearing to do the Nazi salute were actually pictures of him using the Bellamy salute. In his Pulitzer prize winning biography Lindbergh, author A. Scott Berg explains that interventionist propagandists would photograph Lindbergh and other isolationists using this salute from an angle that left out the American flag, so it would be indistinguishable from the Hitler salute to observers.
In order to prevent further confusion or controversy, US Congress instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute.[2] This was done when Congress amended the Flag Code on December 22, 1942.[3][4]
There was initially some resistance to dropping the Bellamy salute, for example from the Daughters of the American Revolution,[5] but this opposition died down quickly following Nazi Germany's declaration of war against the United States on December 11, 1941.