Jesus' (yes that one) tomb found?

Pale Horse

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IndyJohan said:
So Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

FALSE Don't weaken the arguement by bringing up falsities. Evil does exist, and it was created.

If there were to be a god... and if there truly were places like heaven and hell... you honestly think a person that would live his life being a good person, obeying the law and all,.. but didn´t believe in god, would burn in hell for all eternity?
Somehow I can't see how a being that seemingly requires worship is good, just, or even omnipotent, because it obviously needs something to draw its power from
Worship is for our benefit

One common trait is present in all of these posts. But this thread is not about the apologetics of Christian faith, save the consequences of the bones in a box that Cameron found. The rest that follows stems from questions A) and B) we still haven't answered. I wonder why that is?
 

Indycrusader

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Doc Savage: Yep, I bet that's him. I've listened to his seminars many a time. He's also one of my favorites. :)

ClintonHammond: My point was this: the universe had to begin at some point in time. Or do you also think it's been here for all eternity? Because without someone or something supernatural taking care of that point, that's impossible. Anyway, the universe had to begin. And if no one or nothing was taking care of that beginning, than where did everything come from? It had to come from nothing, correct? Because there couldn't always have been something. There had to be nothing at one time. Because there had to be a beginning. But then, if there was nothing at one time...then where did all the something come from?

I certainly can't explain it, whether I believe in the evolutionist's theory or the creationist's belief. But at least in my belief, there's an all-powerful God in charge who I admit I don't fully understand. Deuteronomy 29:29 says, "The secret things belong unto God..." He says right there that we can't even come close to understanding everything. And I can't. I've tried many times to 'understand' how God could have always been and always will be. But it boggles my mind, makes my head hurt. If I try to think, however, about the evolutionist's theory, that there is no God and everything happened scientifically, it still boggles my mind and makes my head hurt. Because everything had to begin somewhere, and I just can't figure out that beginning from nothing. Except that my belief includes God...and yours doesn't. You have to prove your beginning scientifically. I don't.

Maybe once I get to Heaven I'll understand it all. Maybe not. But it doesn't really matter to me because that's not what's important. What's important is whether you've accepted Christ or not. I just wish everyone could see that. But like I said, I understand how that can be hard to accept, so I don't mean to push it on anyone.

Anyway, I guess it all boils down to two things. Whether you believe in God or don't, and whether you believe in His Bible or don't. If you believe in God and the Bible, then it's not hard at all to accept the creationist's belief. If you don't believe in God and the Bible, it's extremely hard to accept.

I don't pretend to understand it all, not even close. I just know what I believe, and I believe it's true.

BTW, I hope we can all still be friends here. I don't want to make anybody angry. I'm not angry at any of ya'll for what you've said against my belief and/or for yours. I've just been getting really into it, I guess. :)
 

Finn

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Doc Savage said:
Worship is for our benefit, Finn, not His. We draw power from His Presence, invoked by worship.
I wasn't actually questioning the matter of worship itself, but the matter does God require it from everyone? I mean are those 90% of people on this Earth who don't genuinely (note: being namely Christian doesn't stand for believing in higher entities) believe in God doomed to rather warm afterlife as our friend Indycrusader here rather boldly claims? Do you agree, Doc? If God gains nothing from this, why would he punish those who voluntarily leave this chance unused?

Just doesn't seem too logical to me...

Note: Although many of you would probably wish to donate his or her insight into these queries, I directed 'em at Doc Savage. Not in the Chess mood, sorry.
 

Doc Savage

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Finn said:
I mean are those 90% of people on this Earth who don't genuinely (note: being namely Christian doesn't stand for believing in higher entities) believe in God doomed to rather warm afterlife as our friend Indycrusader here rather boldly claims? Do you agree, Doc? If God gains nothing from this, why would he punish those who voluntarily leave this chance unused?
The devil believes in God, Finn, and I guarantee he won't be in heaven. Too often these conversations boil down to "am I not good enough for God?" And, inevitably, when you ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer.

The Bible says we are saved (from Hell) by grace through faith. The grace is Jesus': being born by God's Word of a virgin, he was free of the Adamic nature and lived a sinless life. By faith (namely, belief in Jesus' substitutionary life, death, and resurrection) we enter into that grace and effectively recieve credit for the aforementioned sinless life. Therefore, by His grace, through faith in Him, we avert Hell. Herein God shows absolute justice and absolute mercy at the same time. The curse that Adam's broken fellowship with God (and causative fellowship with Satan) brought on mankind was inflicted part and parcel upon and Christ at the crucifixion.

So, simply put, faith in Jesus (not a good, moral existence) is what saves from Hell.
 

Finn

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Doc Savage said:
So, simply put, faith in Jesus (not a good, moral existence) is what saves from Hell.
So I take it you must be a believer then if you wish to avert the hot place after you kick the bucket?

Doc Savage said:
The devil believes in God, Finn, and I guarantee he won't be in heaven.
Does he want to? If the above is true, he's running a waaay bigger installation. Heaven's nothing compared to the customer base downstairs.
 

Pale Horse

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Attributes of God

How quickly this became an attribute of God discussion. Talk about migration.

But I guess if you want to know about the bones in the ossuary, you need to start from the beginning.
 

Doc Savage

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Finn said:
So I take it you must be a believer then if you wish to avert the hot place after you kick the bucket?
I'm a believer because His goodness led me to repentance...the fire insurance is just an added benefit. ;)
Finn said:
Does he want to?
He has no choice...he was there. The Bible says he was "the anointed cherub who covered" (Ezekiel 28)...which ties this in to Indy. The two angels on the ark's lid took the devil's place when he took the big dive. (The ark's lid being the mercy seat, a representation of God's throne in Heaven and the place where His manifest Presence appeared to the Hebrews.)
Finn said:
If the above is true, he's running a waaay bigger installation. Heaven's nothing compared to the customer base downstairs.
You assume he'll rule in Hell. The devil will be roasting, not reigning. It's not some diametrically-opposed cosmic chess game.
Thanatos said:
But I guess if you want to know about the bones in the ossuary, you need to start from the beginning.
Ahhh, beginnings...we always bring it back around to those. Especially where CH and myself are involved.
 
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Show me one single reputable scientist that says that dogs came from a rock....

O.k... pull your heads out first, then show me....

Senseless blather....

"then where did all the something come from?"
Good question.... I see nothing compelling to suggest that any "Ghawd" is the answer... Only ignorant mythology and people who are selling it say that...

"Whether you believe in God or don't"
Belief is immaterial.... The fact is there's no evidence to support the existence of any supreme being... No Flying Spaghetti Monster, No "God", No Devil, No Santa Clause, No Tooth Fairy... It's all a lot of mythological mumbo-jumbo...

"I just know what I believe, and I believe it's true."
There's a guy in the "home" across the street who believes that his red ball cap keeps the laser beams from the Orbital Mind Control Platform from reading his mind... Belief, without solid, supported evidence is irrational.
 
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Indycrusader

New member
It was making a point, CH. Not that scientists actually believe that dogs came from rocks, but they believe that they evolved, came from ooze, crawled out of the ocean, all of the above, or whatever.

And Doc Savage is right. Satan is trying his best to pull in as many people as he can so that he won't burn alone. He will be right there along with them when comes the final judgment.
 
"It was making a point, CH. Not that scientists actually believe that dogs came from rocks, but they believe that they evolved, came from ooze, crawled out of the ocean, all of the above, or whatever."

No... it wasn't making a point.... It was an ignorant and futile attempt to cast dispersions on that which you don't understand.... It was a fine and dandy exhibition of ignorance.

Scientists don't BELIEVE in Evolution.... It is simply, currently, the single best model we have to explain the abundance and variation of life on this planet. ALL the observed and tested evidence supports it, at least as far as we understand the evidence so far.... When more new evidence comes in, I'm sure the current model will be revised and adjusted. That evidence will most likely NOT be that some ghost 'created' everything a little more than 6000 years ago.... Cause there's no evidence for it yet, and it's not likely to come down the pike any time soon....

Satan was invented by PEOPLE... Men as a matter of fact, as a tool to control the thoughts and actions of other people through fear and intimidation... nothing more.
 

Doc Savage

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ClintonHammond said:
There's a guy in the "home" across the street who believes that his red ball cap keeps the laser beams from the Orbital Mind Control Platform from reading his mind...
Tell him to line it with aluminum foil...it throws the OMCP's patrol droids off. ;)
ClintonHammond said:
Show me one single reputable scientist that says that dogs came from a rock....
Any that says that rain on rocks produced a "macromolecule" that eventually rose from the primordial soup as a multicellular organism...hence, any evolutionist.
 
Evolution doesn't claim to completely understand the origin of life. Yet....

There are theories.... suppositions... speculations... based on observed evidence and trends... but no one claims them as the "This Is How Life Started" fact....

again with the senseless blather...

Even those speculations outweigh ancient mythology... Especially ancient mythologies that claim to have the first and ONLY right answer....
 

Pale Horse

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Just out of curiosity, why are we (still) discussing the scientific evidence of "the flying spaghetti monster" as He is affectionately referred to by CH when sound logic has already been demonstrated to solve this process for us?
 

Pale Horse

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simply stated, If the existence of God can be proven through logic, is it necessary to prove it by science?
 
I've yet to see the existence of "God" proved through logic.... especially given that Faith is the surrender of logic and reason.

Faith is the belief in something without evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary.... so what does faith have to do with logic?
 
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Indycrusader

New member
OK, I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this debate. I don't seem to be able to change your mind, and you can't change mine. So there's no reason to argue, is there? Like someone said, we should just respect each others' beliefs.

If we keep going, we'll never quit debating, cause we'll always just keep coming back at each other.

So, I hope we can all still be civil toward each other. I still want to be 'forum friends' if ya'll will let. :)

Oh, and CH, I totally agree with you. You said: I, in all honestly, wish I understood three fifths of anything you post, Pale Horse.... :D
 
I'm not here to change anybody's mind.... And I hope no one here thinks they're going to change mine....

so, it's not really an argument.... or even a debate.... it's just a few people presenting their case on the subject.....

"we should just respect each others' beliefs"
Fnneah... Your beliefs don't matter a hill of beans to me.... any more than mine should matter to you! Doesn't mean we can't talk about them though....

It's just not worth taking any of it very seriously....
 

Pale Horse

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I wouldn't use faith, it's so misunderstood. Faith is a reassurance to those who can not comprehend the complex nature of what it means to acknowledge a God. My stance is that if we can define God empirically, the evidence will be irrefutable.

It's where the church has failed society, it neglets the study of theology. You see, I respect your arguments on this board, they strengthen the iron therein. You (an atheist) can validly dispute the existance of God with people who rail you defending their God because of "their faith". As you say, you can believe anything, but it doesn't make it true. Hence the flying spaghetti monster. But if we begin by defining God, then the faith argument on both sides is a slippery slope.

It goes back to the ossuary, and the bones. (an interesting metaphor now in this thread). The old testament as you say is a mythological tale. But in the case of the aramic/hebrew the myth is only the presentation style of the philosophy, the logic, the definition of God in one form. We have to get to the bones of that logic to either prove or disprove His existence. If we prove it, then the myth nature of the telling of the stories in the Bible is merely a presentation style, like satire, or comedy, or any other linguistic writing techinque.
 
Philosophy won't pull your cow out of a bog, or put bread on your table.

"if we can define God empirically, the evidence will be irrefutable"
I have NO idea what you're on about here...
 
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