Crystal Skull hatred knows no bounds

Darth Vile

New member
Lance Quazar said:
Personally, I don't think seeing the same character the exact same way across several films is particularly interesting.

I see nothing wrong with changing up the character, showing new dimensions or having the character grow across (or even between) the films.

It wouldn't have made any sense to see the "Raiders" Indy in a sequel set more than twenty years later.

However, I agree with Matt deMille's suggestion that the softening of Indy in KOTCS was due more to a stylistic choice by the filmmakers.

It's not really Indy that's gone soft in KOTCS (and, to a lesser extent, LC), it's the movies themselves that are softer - much less gritty, bloody and suspenseful.

The tone of LC was much lighter than its predecessors, with much more comedy and with less intense action sequences. I think LC is very enjoyable with a lot of good qualities, but, as an action movie, it's tonally different than its predecessors and is, at least partially, lacking the earlier films sense of urgency and danger.

Unfortunately, those cartoonish qualities were amplified tenfold in KOTCS, which is an utterly bloodless affair. Indy doesn't kill anyone. He only really gets into one serious fight. There was - for me, anyway - NO sense of actual threat or suspense anywhere in the movie. Russian soldiers fire machine guns at our heroes when they're five feet away and hit nothing but leaves. Indy - Indy in his fifties, mind you - crashes through glass and metal comfortably, without skipping a beat. None of the other films were that deliberately preposterous.

I don't think the movie actually bothered exploring in any meaningful way what it would REALLY be like to be Indiana Jones fast approaching 60. What was endearing about the original "Raiders" Indy was his fallibility. Sure, he was heroic and tough and relentless, but he was far from a superman.

With the exception of a few seconds in that aforementioned Dovchenko fight, I never felt Indy was in any real danger in KOTCS and I never felt like he was up against odds he couldn't handle. In the first two movies, we see Indy barely struggling to stay ahead of the game.

It would have been great if Indy's age and weaknesses were made a part of his character arc. If we did see a changed Indy in mind and body and if those implications were explored in the film's story and action sequences. What better way to make Indy sympathetic than have him be an old guy who isn't quite up to the challenge like he used to be.

Other movies have flirted with similar themes - and have also failed to deliver. In "Lethal Weapon 4", Riggs is faced with the prospect of getting old for the first time and worries he's no match for the incredibly young and powerful Jet Li. That is, until the very end, when he manages to win the fight, anyway.

In the James Bond film, "The World is Not Enough", the filmmakers set up a potentially amazing dynamic between an injured Bond - who has to bluff his way back into active duty - and a villain who can feel no pain. Unfortunately, that wonderful concept was all but forgotten by the film's end.

Ultimately, KOTCS does definitely continues and greatly expands on the light tone introduced in LC, but it comes from behind the camera. Despite a few quips like "not as easy as it used to be," Indy's age and physicality isn't mined for any character-based or thematic resonance. If anything, Indy is too capable, too competent in the film. It's only the age of the filmmakers that slows him down.

I wouldn't disagree with what you state... However, for me, the 'tonality' of KOTCS was always inevitable. For example, they (the bearded ones) were always going to have to compromise over Indy's physicality in the movie. Were they ever going to portray Indy as someone who was decrepit, someone who could no longer take a punch or someone who perhaps felt uncomfortable (or remorseful) with being a killer? Of course they weren't. They chose the path of least resistance, the path that the majority of movie goers would accept i.e. the same ole Indy, a bit watered down with age and with creakier bones.

I would have liked to have seen Indy's increased decrepitude 'mined' further... but I'm not sure that would have made for the kind of fun summer blockbuster that the Indy movies are historically synonymous with. Ultimately I find KOTCS similar to Die Hard 4... in that it conjures up the spirit of the originals, it even has moments that are equal to the originals... but unfortunately action movies have moved on, and Indiana Jones/John McClane represent the past and not the future of the genre.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Mickiana said:
Doesn't Indy go to South America mainly because he was fired from his job and to help rescue Ox because "they're gonna kill him"? He sounded resigned to the myth of Akator being a myth. Even when he found the skull he was more mystified than anything: "What is this thing?" He thought there might be something more to it, but he didn't know at that stage. So, he wasn't treasure hunting. In fact, in the beginning he is introduced to us with his bits of pottery from Mexico. At this stage in life he seems to be leading a normal, quiet professorial life of teaching and going on digs to find artifacts that might be important in the classroom, but which could not be used as an object of pursuit in another movie. Or maybe they can? - Indiana Jones and the Academically Important Pottery Pieces of Mexico!

A really cool scene in Crystal Skull would have been, after he escapes with Mutt, that Indy at his house gets "bitten by the adventure bug" again. Maybe pouring over the Ox's note, he has a moment, then looks up at the wall and sees his whip hanging there . . . then with the map montage, on the plane, he's doing the Western "gearing up" scene. In Crystal Skull, he just seems to put on the hat, whip and jacket like he never took it off. In one way, that's cool, but I think a recognition of the time it's been since he's been fully suited up for adventure would have been better.

After all, when the Reds captured him in Mexico, he didn't have his jacket, so even then, he wasn't "fully geared", suggesting that he was indeed pursuing a more scholarly life (although he did have his whip . . .) Hmmm, maybe in the Area 51 sequence he SHOULDN'T have had his whip at all. But, after meeting Mutt, he takes it off the wall in his house, like, "NOW I'm ready . . ."

A side note: Mutt must be pretty dumb. All that time hanging around in Indy's house while Indy translates, Mutt didn't notice any pictures of his mother? Or anything to tie Indy to Marion? That set (yes, it was a set) had pictures of all Indy's past women very visible, and other treasures of Indy's adventures. Maybe Mutt failed his Intuition Check (game term). Who knows.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
I wouldn't disagree with what you state... However, for me, the 'tonality' of KOTCS was always inevitable. For example, they (the bearded ones) were always going to have to compromise over Indy's physicality in the movie. Were they ever going to portray Indy as someone who was decrepit, someone who could no longer take a punch or someone who perhaps felt uncomfortable (or remorseful) with being a killer? Of course they weren't. They chose the path of least resistance, the path that the majority of movie goers would accept i.e. the same ole Indy, a bit watered down with age and with creakier bones.

I would have liked to have seen Indy's increased decrepitude 'mined' further... but I'm not sure that would have made for the kind of fun summer blockbuster that the Indy movies are historically synonymous with. Ultimately I find KOTCS similar to Die Hard 4... in that it conjures up the spirit of the originals, it even has moments that are equal to the originals... but unfortunately action movies have moved on, and Indiana Jones/John McClane represent the past and not the future of the genre.

I'm not saying I wanted to see Indy limping and wheezing his way through the movie, getting his ass handed to him by everyone he crosses paths with.

But some kind of *real* acknowledgement of his age in a few places would have been extremely welcome.

Example: The idea of Indy coming up short while trying to whip himself to safety is a great idea.

However, KOTCS totally botches the moment by having Indy crash - utterly unharmed and barely even inconvenienced - through the metal and glass of a truck's windshield.

The "Raiders" Indy would never have been so cavalier. He would have been in PAIN. Indy actually felt every bruise and blow in that movie, when he was in his prime.

They could have repurposed idea, made it funnier while also making it a great character point.

And that's not to say that Indy's age would have been entirely negative. He could have been wiser, smarter, more intuitive, more strategic, etc. We could have seen a more interesting version of the character.

Instead, as you said, we got watered-down Indy. The age of the character didn't matter at all. It was just a big, banal adventure. The path of least resistance indeed.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Matt deMille said:
A really cool scene in Crystal Skull would have been...doing the Western "gearing up" scene. In Crystal Skull, he just seems to put on the hat, whip and jacket like he never took it off. In one way, that's cool, but I think a recognition of the time it's been since he's been fully suited up for adventure would have been better.

After all, when the Reds captured him in Mexico, he didn't have his jacket, so even then, he wasn't "fully geared", suggesting that he was indeed pursuing a more scholarly life (although he did have his whip . . .) Hmmm, maybe in the Area 51 sequence he SHOULDN'T have had his whip at all. But, after meeting Mutt, he takes it off the wall in his house, like, "NOW I'm ready . . ."

The movie CRIED OUT for that sequence. Hell, I don't think he should have even had his hat on in the opening scene - even though its such an iconic part of the character.

I would rather have seen Indy retired to a life of academic and digging up clay shards who dusts off the gun, jacket, hat, whip, etc. and suits up for one final adventure.

That's the movie we SHOULD have gotten.

A side note: Mutt must be pretty dumb. All that time hanging around in Indy's house while Indy translates, Mutt didn't notice any pictures of his mother? Or anything to tie Indy to Marion? That set (yes, it was a set) had pictures of all Indy's past women very visible, and other treasures of Indy's adventures. Maybe Mutt failed his Intuition Check (game term). Who knows.

Eh, I can buy Indy not having visible mementos of a broken engagement lying around his house.

However, I thought it was a ridiculous cheat that Marion's son inexplicably calls her "Mary". Mary and Marion are entirely different names. Mary isn't a shortened version of Marion or a nickname for it. Why would Marion have gone by a different name? It was a lazy cheat.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
KotCS - enough plot holes for a boulder to roll through. They just didn't think it through. I hope Kasdan writes Indy5, but that's really hoping.
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Lance Quazar said:
I'm not saying I wanted to see Indy limping and wheezing his way through the movie, getting his ass handed to him by everyone he crosses paths with.

But some kind of *real* acknowledgement of his age in a few places would have been extremely welcome.

Example: The idea of Indy coming up short while trying to whip himself to safety is a great idea.

However, KOTCS totally botches the moment by having Indy crash - utterly unharmed and barely even inconvenienced - through the metal and glass of a truck's windshield.

The "Raiders" Indy would never have been so cavalier. He would have been in PAIN. Indy actually felt every bruise and blow in that movie, when he was in his prime.

They could have repurposed idea, made it funnier while also making it a great character point.

And that's not to say that Indy's age would have been entirely negative. He could have been wiser, smarter, more intuitive, more strategic, etc. We could have seen a more interesting version of the character.

Instead, as you said, we got watered-down Indy. The age of the character didn't matter at all. It was just a big, banal adventure. The path of least resistance indeed.

Lance- First off, GREAT posts. I don't quite agree with much anything though:)P), but you give legitimate reasons and not just silly and irrelevant like Deckard was.

Reading your thoughts that Indy should've felt more pain, should've not worn the Indy outfit until the middle etc. It sounds to me as if you wanted a Nolan like Indiana Jones adventure or at least a Rocky Balboa that just eliminated almost anything cartoon like which, imo, would've taken away too much from the direction most would've wanted.

Frankly, that just sums up my theory I posted a while back that people only give KOTCS a hard time because of the huge time-gap. If there had been Indy adventures since then, anybody who didn't like it would've accepted it and moved on like people have with Bond films they didn't like(personally I thought QOS was a lot worse than KOTCS for instance), but because so much time past with no Indy, it HAD to be even better than Raiders, which obviously wasn't going to be the case.

Going back to the movie, I don't think removing B-movie moments like Indy not feeling anything when he hits the car is the answer. Indy movies ALWAYS have had B-movie moments, some internet people still like to pick at that submarine scene(or even the truck chase). To quote Lucas himself "The Indiana Jones movies are B-movies done in an A-style".

So while a much slower and toned down Indy may have been more "arty" I think going in that direction would've been against what most everyone would have wanted. I frankly liked they had only a couple lines addressing the issue but didn't acknowledge his age every other line or had a lame "back-cracking" joke(like they did in The Incredibles). Most people would've just complained they made too big a deal of his age, I know this because I would've been one of them.
 
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Matt deMille

New member
Lance Quazar said:
Eh, I can buy Indy not having visible mementos of a broken engagement lying around his house.

However, I thought it was a ridiculous cheat that Marion's son inexplicably calls her "Mary". Mary and Marion are entirely different names. Mary isn't a shortened version of Marion or a nickname for it. Why would Marion have gone by a different name? It was a lazy cheat.

Actually, if one studies the set (of Indy's house), there ARE pictures of Marion, Willie, and just about everyone in the Indiana Jones canon. They even make specific mention of this on the DVD extras. They did it as a "nod-nod, wink-wink" sort of thing. And that's fine. But really, why doesn't Mutt notice his mother? It just shows how much they need Kasdan back. Movies are tough to pull together, and **** happens, but I think this really brings to the forefront how much today's "writers" are more like damage control guys, stringing together FX sequences. The writers of yesteryear were STORYTELLERS and did a superior job. Kasdan rules!
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Matt deMille said:
Actually, if one studies the set (of Indy's house), there ARE pictures of Marion, Willie, and just about everyone in the Indiana Jones canon. They even make specific mention of this on the DVD extras. They did it as a "nod-nod, wink-wink" sort of thing. And that's fine. But really, why doesn't Mutt notice his mother? It just shows how much they need Kasdan back. Movies are tough to pull together, and **** happens, but I think this really brings to the forefront how much today's "writers" are more like damage control guys, stringing together FX sequences. The writers of yesteryear were STORYTELLERS and did a superior job. Kasdan rules!

I blame the set decorators, then. I did briefly see some of the DVD stuff and saw that there were pictures of Willie there. (In her red dress from ToD.)

Hilariously lame that all the photos of Indy's old friends are either still pictures FROM THE ACTUAL MOVIES (Marcus & Henry on the desk) or publicity photos.

How friggin' hard would it have been to find some other pictures of the actors and do just a little creative photoshopping?

The Henry/Marcus pictures on the desk took me IMMEDIATELY out of the movie. Did Sallah surreptitiously snap a pic of Marcus in the marketplace before he said hello?
 

Matt deMille

New member
Lance Quazar said:
I blame the set decorators, then. I did briefly see some of the DVD stuff and saw that there were pictures of Willie there. (In her red dress from ToD.)

Hilariously lame that all the photos of Indy's old friends are either still pictures FROM THE ACTUAL MOVIES (Marcus & Henry on the desk) or publicity photos.

How friggin' hard would it have been to find some other pictures of the actors and do just a little creative photoshopping?

The Henry/Marcus pictures on the desk took me IMMEDIATELY out of the movie. Did Sallah surreptitiously snap a pic of Marcus in the marketplace before he said hello?

I agree. Any time someone does that it takes me out of the show. Perhaps the worst offender is "The Running Man", where some jet-packed, invisible, intangible cameraman caught all of Arnold's helicopter fight from every angle so they could show it to the crowd at the gameshow.
 

Forbidden Eye

Well-known member
Matt deMille said:
It just shows how much they need Kasdan back.

Not to be cynical, but Kasdan's last movie, Dreamcatcher was not well-received.

Plus I heard Kasdan actually helped with the love-scene dialogue. If Spielberg's involvement couldn't please the Lucas-haters, I really doubt Kasdan would've made them embrace it that much more.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Lance Quazar said:
However, KOTCS totally botches the moment by having Indy crash - utterly unharmed and barely even inconvenienced - through the metal and glass of a truck's windshield.

The "Raiders" Indy would never have been so cavalier. He would have been in PAIN. Indy actually felt every bruise and blow in that movie, when he was in his prime.

They could have repurposed idea, made it funnier while also making it a great character point.

And that's not to say that Indy's age would have been entirely negative. He could have been wiser, smarter, more intuitive, more strategic, etc. We could have seen a more interesting version of the character.

Instead, as you said, we got watered-down Indy. The age of the character didn't matter at all. It was just a big, banal adventure. The path of least resistance indeed.

A 30/40 year old Harrison Ford feeling every punch, knock and kick lends itself to a sense of reality (one of the reasons Raiders works so well). Substitute a man in his prime for a 70 year old, and that sense of reality just becomes uncomfortable for the audience. The risk is that showing a much older man in physical discomfort only serves to undermine the illusion that the character is capable of being physically 'up for it'.

There is a natural consequence to using an older Ford in an action movie like Indiana Jones... 1) As good as Ford still is, physically, he's not the man he was. 2) The audience is aware that he is much older, and the action becomes less believable (unless restrained). I personally feel it was a conscious move on Spielberg's/Lucas' part to refrain from showing Indiana Jones suffering in the same way as he perhaps did in Raiders or TLC, because they were concerned that the character would lose any sense of credibility if shown to be frail/weak. Therefore, they simply paid his advancing years lip service and ensured, from a directional point of view, that they didn't make him appear older than the character is supposed to be.

I think that's why some of the action is 'watered down' and obviously why Harrison isn't involved in anything as epic as the tank chase/truck chase in KOTCS i.e. it's a consequence of the actors age rather than a consequence of the characters age. Again, that's not to say that Ford isn't capable, rather that the audience isn't willing to believe it.
 

Cole

New member
Or perhaps they felt like they already used that whole schtick in 'Raiders.' You know, with the whole "it's not the mileage honey, it's the years," and Marion kissing all the boo-boos.

How many of those same gags can you do, you know?

Indy smashes through through the windshield, I don't think you can expect him to take a break in the action to go, "Owwwwwieeeee."
 

JP Jones

New member
kongisking said:
KOTCS haters are cool in my book.

REALLY?!!

Is this the kong we know and love? The kong that would spit in the face of any hater if he saw them? Who are you and what have you done with the real Kongisking?
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
Kasdan directed Dreamcatcher, not wrote the screenplay. And the line, "It's not the years honey, it's the mileage" I think was improvised by Harrison. Read the Raiders screenplay by Kasdan. It's as exciting to read as is watching the movie. No wonder the movie was so good. Kasdan definitely made the movie what it was with his intuition and special feelings for the characters and their relationships. And then there is the action. I suppose he was unlimited by constraints of living up to a predecessor and obviously the social politics involved in sequels was not a burden for Kasdan to have to deal with. Think of the constraints on Koepp with writing the screenplay for CS - lessen the violence, introduce and showcase Indy's son, write action sequences that would be impossible without CG, introduce and reintroduce characters but not develop them, turn Indy into a superhero and lay on the schmaltz as thick as wedding cake icing. The result: Indy4. Maybe Kasdan would have all the same problems (limitations) if he was chosen to write Indy5? I'd like to think not, he seems very intelligent.
 

Matt deMille

New member
Mickiana said:
Kasdan directed Dreamcatcher, not wrote the screenplay. And the line, "It's not the years honey, it's the mileage" I think was improvised by Harrison. Read the Raiders screenplay by Kasdan. It's as exciting to read as is watching the movie. No wonder the movie was so good. Kasdan definitely made the movie what it was with his intuition and special feelings for the characters and their relationships. And then there is the action. I suppose he was unlimited by constraints of living up to a predecessor and obviously the social politics involved in sequels was not a burden for Kasdan to have to deal with. Think of the constraints on Koepp with writing the screenplay for CS - lessen the violence, introduce and showcase Indy's son, write action sequences that would be impossible without CG, introduce and reintroduce characters but not develop them, turn Indy into a superhero and lay on the schmaltz as thick as wedding cake icing. The result: Indy4. Maybe Kasdan would have all the same problems (limitations) if he was chosen to write Indy5? I'd like to think not, he seems very intelligent.

All very good points. Kasdan certainly didn't have the restrictions or expectations that Koepp did. Then again, Koepp had a different sort of freedom: Spielberg and Lucas are impossible to dethrone in Hollywood. They're bulletproof, even after making some real questionable-quality movies (War of the Worlds, A.I., the Star Wars prequels, etc). Back in Kasdan's day, with Raiders, while Spielberg and Lucas were already giants, they were still young, and as such, a lot of people wanted to see them fail. Spielberg's film just prior to Raiders -- 1941 -- flopped and critics seized on it to say "Hollywood's Golden Boy failed! Bwa-ha-ha!" However much this may or may not have bothered Steven, surely there was intense pressure (be it personal or imposed by the studio) that his next film (Raiders) right the ship, so-to-speak. Kasdan trying to recreate the magic that stormed Hollywood and then seemed to just snuff out couldn't have been easy.

I think, really, that Kasdan is simply old school. These days, the "new school" seems to be of writers and others who make product, not art. Not Koepp's fault. He's a product of misguided times. I have had the honor of meeting Kasdan and spoke to him after a screening of Silverado. Everything he spoke about had a long, thought-through basis. With modern films and expectations, Koepp's world, it just seems to be "stitch these FX sequences together". How would Kasdan have handled that? Well, having a background better rooted in traditional storytelling, I think he would have been able to find those clever ways around the stilted story he had to work with. He'd have invented things that made it much better. Little touches. Koepp's a nice guy but I think he just doesn't have that "touch" that can make a so-so-script evolve into something much better. Kasdan does.

Could Kasdan write Indy 5? I hope so. But I doubt it. From what I understand, he and Lucas don't agree on much these days. It's a pity.
 

Mickiana

Well-known member
That's what I was thinking, that Kasdan might work around the limitations better, that he could get more of his art into a screenplay despite what was being asked of him. All this is academic of course. Indy4 was perhaps made as best as it could have been. But not to last....
 

Matt deMille

New member
Mickiana said:
That's what I was thinking, that Kasdan might work around the limitations better, that he could get more of his art into a screenplay despite what was being asked of him. All this is academic of course. Indy4 was perhaps made as best as it could have been. But not to last....

Hmm, maybe. If you look at other credits (directing), Kasdan seems to make better movies. Koepp's movies, while good, don't seem to use subtlety as much. They tell things to the audience outright, like Koepp doesn't trust us to "get it". The better stories (and storytellers) give us more credit to "fill in the blanks" ourselves. Perhaps that's why they (guys like Kasdan) are better at inventing those details. Their hearts are into the details more. Koepp's Indy 4 script seemed too mechanical. Too "by the numbers". It was good, just not as good as it could have been.

Another hurdle Koepp was dealing with which Kasdan certainly did not was the division between Spielberg and Lucas. Back in the days of Raiders, Steven and George were on the same page. Now, they're very divided, mostly about technology. While Steven loves real sets, George wants all greenscreen. I imagine that's got to make it tough on the screenwriter too. You'd think it wouldn't--dialogue is dialogue, regardless of whether the background is plaster or pixels. But that's the difference between "by-the-numbers" movies and GREAT movies -- The subtle details, the consideration of things like "what can this set offer the actors and thus what sort of lines should I give them" VS having NO set, which I believe influences the writing and its delivery (i.e. "I have to tell the audience because I don't know yet what the world will be like, so how can I trust the information to be delivered?")

What would be interesting is if Kasdan, for posterity, went and wrote his own draft of "Crystal Skull" and just posted it online for everyone to read and consider, a "This is how I'd have written it" script. I'd LOVE to read that!
 

Darth Vile

New member
Mickiana said:
Kasdan directed Dreamcatcher, not wrote the screenplay. And the line, "It's not the years honey, it's the mileage" I think was improvised by Harrison. Read the Raiders screenplay by Kasdan. It's as exciting to read as is watching the movie. No wonder the movie was so good. Kasdan definitely made the movie what it was with his intuition and special feelings for the characters and their relationships. And then there is the action. I suppose he was unlimited by constraints of living up to a predecessor and obviously the social politics involved in sequels was not a burden for Kasdan to have to deal with. Think of the constraints on Koepp with writing the screenplay for CS - lessen the violence, introduce and showcase Indy's son, write action sequences that would be impossible without CG, introduce and reintroduce characters but not develop them, turn Indy into a superhero and lay on the schmaltz as thick as wedding cake icing. The result: Indy4. Maybe Kasdan would have all the same problems (limitations) if he was chosen to write Indy5? I'd like to think not, he seems very intelligent.

I think Kasdan had more of a blank slate, but I would imagine he was as constrained (in relative terms) as other screen writers. I seem to recall that Kasdan wasn't that happy with what they'd done with his script... so perhaps if we'd have got Kasdan's definitive vision of Raiders we wouldn't all be here discussing it now i.e. it wouldn't have been the success it was?

Matt deMille said:
Hmm, maybe. If you look at other credits (directing), Kasdan seems to make better movies. Koepp's movies, while good, don't seem to use subtlety as much.

Another hurdle Koepp was dealing with which Kasdan certainly did not was the division between Spielberg and Lucas. Back in the days of Raiders, Steven and George were on the same page. Now, they're very divided, mostly about technology. While Steven loves real sets, George wants all greenscreen. I imagine that's got to make it tough on the screenwriter too. You'd think it wouldn't--dialogue is dialogue, regardless of whether the background is plaster or pixels. But that's the difference between "by-the-numbers" movies and GREAT movies -- The subtle details, the consideration of things like "what can this set offer the actors and thus what sort of lines should I give them" VS having NO set, which I believe influences the writing and its delivery (i.e. "I have to tell the audience because I don't know yet what the world will be like, so how can I trust the information to be delivered?")

I think Kasdan is a pretty 2nd league director, so I'm not sure one can actually use his directing credentials to affirm any point... but I'd agree that Kasdan is probably more interested in the language/poetry of the spoken word, whereas Koepp is probably more interested in the images that words can create.

Re. Lucas/Spielberg. I don't think there is any big division between these men. If you read the transcripts and various other reading material, Lucas had a lot more initial control over Raiders than he did the others (certainly KOTCS). Based on this, one could argue that KOTCS would have been better if the making of it had been less of a democracy with Lucas as the senior partner. On a related note. Assuming that all the CGI is as a result of Lucas' wishes is a big (and I don't believe entirely accurate) assumption to make. Spielberg has to be the one responsible for transposing the written word onto the screen. For an example, if the script called for a prairie dog, I would imagine it would be Spielberg's choice as to how that was realised on screen.
 

Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Mickiana said:
T Indy4 was perhaps made as best as it could have been. But not to last....

That's just lazy thinking. Of COURSE the movie could have been better. It could have been a LOT better. Heck, if they had just shot Frank Darabont's draft - even the rough version that was leaked without any further revision, the movie would have been a LOT better.

There are countless ways the movie could have been better....

Cole said:
Indy smashes through through the windshield, I don't think you can expect him to take a break in the action to go, "Owwwwwieeeee."

How about having him react even SLIGHTLY like a human being might react to that situation? With at least a grunt or a grimace instead of a tossed off quip? Or even a grunt or a grimace BEFORE the quip. Something remotely believable, relatable.

In "Raiders" and "Doom", Indy feels it when he gets punched, hit, thrown, beaten, etc. Amazingly, it doesn't seem to bring the pacing of those films to a screeching halt as you're suggesting.
 
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Lance Quazar

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
A 30/40 year old Harrison Ford feeling every punch, knock and kick lends itself to a sense of reality (one of the reasons Raiders works so well). Substitute a man in his prime for a 70 year old, and that sense of reality just becomes uncomfortable for the audience. The risk is that showing a much older man in physical discomfort only serves to undermine the illusion that the character is capable of being physically 'up for it'.

There is a natural consequence to using an older Ford in an action movie like Indiana Jones... 1) As good as Ford still is, physically, he's not the man he was. 2) The audience is aware that he is much older, and the action becomes less believable (unless restrained). I personally feel it was a conscious move on Spielberg's/Lucas' part to refrain from showing Indiana Jones suffering in the same way as he perhaps did in Raiders or TLC, because they were concerned that the character would lose any sense of credibility if shown to be frail/weak. Therefore, they simply paid his advancing years lip service and ensured, from a directional point of view, that they didn't make him appear older than the character is supposed to be.

I think that's why some of the action is 'watered down' and obviously why Harrison isn't involved in anything as epic as the tank chase/truck chase in KOTCS i.e. it's a consequence of the actors age rather than a consequence of the characters age. Again, that's not to say that Ford isn't capable, rather that the audience isn't willing to believe it.

I think there are ways you can have an older character and still have an exciting movie. Take something like "In the Line of Fire" or even "The Fugitive" - there's a lot of physicality with those characters, but they are also thinking heroes that survive and triumph due to their wits, not their fists.

Indiana Jones is known for its stunts and action sequences, obviously. To reiterate, I'm not saying I wanted Ford to be wheezing and creaking through the movie.

But to make him more invincible at 60 than the character was at 35? That just doesn't make sense, it's not interesting, it's not compelling. I think you underestimate the audience by saying people wouldn't "buy it" or wouldn't want to see an elderly Ford get roughed up a bit.

Yes, the audience wouldn't have bought it if Ford was beating up dozens of soldiers on his own. But the Indy films were never about that, anyway. Again, the character (at least in the first 2 films) had a vulnerability and fallibility that made him compelling.

I just think they could have found the balance, but appeared to make no effort.
 
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