Indiana Jones films: racist?

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Vance said:
I'm going to have to disagree here. The dinner scene was pretty deliberately a slander on India in general. And, remember, this was 1984. Most major US cities already had Indian buffets by this time, and had some exposure to Indian culture. It was a hateful scene, played up as laughs, at the expense both of India and of the 'stupid American audience who thinks this is what it's really like'.

Dude, the world wasn't a black abyss of ignorance before his holiness Pope Al Gore the II invented the Internet for us. We damn well knew better in 1984. Really, there was no excuse for it then, any more than having a mainstream movie with a 'sketch' about black men eating chicken and watermelon.

And yes, it is exactly the same thing.

Vance, if Indiana Jones traveled through Ireland and everyone he encountered were drunken Irishmen I could comfortably say "that's a stereotype".

I'm familiar with this portrayal.

Its obvious by your choice of words you're emotionally moved by the perception of racism during the Pankot Dinner Scene...the most striking phrase you used was "insanely racist."

What is your definition of racist and what exactly happens in the scene that fits your definition?

Montana Smith · Dec 15, 2012

Rocket Surgeon said:
Vance, if Indiana Jones traveled through Ireland and everyone he encountered were drunken Irishmen I could comfortably say "that's a stereotype".

I'm familiar with this portrayal.

I've seen those documentaries as well.

Rocket Surgeon said:
...the perception of racism during the Pankot Dinner Scene...

I find the Pankot dinner to be the least problematic, or least stereotypical instance, since the items on the menu don't immediately recall any that I'd associate with India.

This is Lucas and Spielberg going off into pure fantasy to add another element of 'gross out'.

It also adds to the strangeness of being within the household of a cult long thought destroyed. Something is obviously not quite right.

Attila the Professor · Dec 15, 2012

Montana Smith said:
I find the Pankot dinner to be the least problematic, or least stereotypical instance, since the items on the menu don't immediately recall any that I'd associate with India.

This is Lucas and Spielberg going off into pure fantasy to add another element of 'gross out'.

It also adds to the strangeness of being within the household of a cult long thought destroyed. Something is obviously not quite right.

Still, the fact that nothing in the film invites us to believe that this meal is unusual within India and not a piece of exotica appropriate to the whole nation is a blemish on it.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Attila the Professor said:
Still, the fact that nothing in the film invites us to believe that this meal is unusual within India and not a piece of exotica appropriate to the whole nation is a blemish on it.

Think it might be the first indication to the audience that the Shaman wasn't spinning wild tales?

Montana Smith · Dec 15, 2012

Attila the Professor said:
Still, the fact that nothing in the film invites us to believe that this meal is unusual within India and not a piece of exotica appropriate to the whole nation is a blemish on it.

Blurmburtt and Indy comment on the 'exotic' nature of it though, don't they?

CAPT. BLUMBURTT

Rather bizarre menu, woundn't you say?

INDIANA

Even if they were trying to scare us away, a devout Hindu would never touch meat.

(looking around)

Makes you wonder what these people are...

Rocket Surgeon said:
Think it might be the first indication to the audience that the Shaman wasn't spinning wild tales?

Hence,

Smiffy said:
It also adds to the strangeness of being within the household of a cult long thought destroyed. Something is obviously not quite right.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Attila the Professor said:
Still, the fact that nothing in the film invites us to believe that this meal is unusual within India and not a piece of exotica appropriate to the whole nation is a blemish on it.

Thank your lucky stars they WENT crazy with it...we might have been introduced to gomutra.

Think that might have caused a stir?

Rather that then the flame?

Attila the Professor · Dec 15, 2012

Montana Smith said:
Blurmburtt and Indy comment on the 'exotic' nature of it though, don't they?

They were going to, but they don't in the film itself. Funny that Huyck and Katz might have gotten that much right.

Rocket Surgeon said:
Think it might be the first indication to the audience that the Shaman wasn't spinning wild tales?

Not a bad point, and it's certainly an appropriately generous interpretation.

I do worry, however, that audiences might, like Willie, find the village and people silly or off-putting. Remember that Raiders audience I mentioned laughing at the Imam's voice? After all, Willie's line "I had bugs for lunch" invites us to connect that food to the spare offerings she received at the village. (Never mind that that was the prior day, seeing as one night had elapsed.)

I wonder if their writing of the Pankot dinner scene predates a similar gross Indian meal in 1983's Bond installment. Certainly, it could have been replaced if they'd considered it too similar.

starks · Dec 15, 2012

Attila the Professor said:
Still, the fact that nothing in the film invites us to believe that this meal is unusual within India and not a piece of exotica appropriate to the whole nation is a blemish on it.

I dont know, I think the entire movie invites us to believe that the palace in general is unusual. You dont walk away with the implication that all indians are in underground cults either practicing human sacrifice. Even from a very young age my personal assumption was what was served were delicacies in the palace which was full of nutty cultists anyhow. If your ok with ripping out a heart I think eating snake surprise isnt really a stretch. It never lead me to think people in India actually eat this way or practice sacrifice for that matter either ( and yes I know certain nations have over the years). The scene is the beggining of showing things are not normal there.
Indy doesnt eat any of it either, at the village he is quite stern about eating the mouldy rice as to not offend the villagers. He is not concerned with this at the dinner as I believe he knows its not normal. Willie on the other hand its quite ditsy and she obviously is of the impression that the food is normal

Mickiana · Dec 15, 2012

I never would have thought archaeologists did what Indy does.

starks · Dec 15, 2012

Mickiana said:
I never would have thought archaeologists did what Indy does.

In that time period and previously the 'grave robbing' and general disregard for ancient sites yes, getting chased by a giant boulder.........

Its a good point though, at some point it is just fiction.

Dr. Gonzo · Dec 15, 2012

By definition Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the only entry that is "racist".

"...A race of supreme beings..."

Mickiana · Dec 15, 2012

Dr. Gonzo said:
By definition Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the only entry that is "racist".

"...A race of supreme beings..."

But what if they really were supreme! And they were humble with it, helping us lowly earthians in such a parental way.

Colonel Corey · Dec 15, 2012

You know, all this rude talk of Indiana Jones being racist makes me want to scream and jump out a 500 story window.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Dr. Gonzo said:
By definition Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the only entry that is "racist".

"...A race of supreme beings..."

HA!

Mickiana said:
But what if they really were supreme! And they were humble with it, helping us lowly earthians in such a parental way.

You were right Mr the Professor, something interesting came of it... :hat:

Attila the Professor said:
Not a bad point, and it's certainly an appropriately generous interpretation.

A nice way to put it...and your correct, its a generous stretch but I'm predisposed to support my view.

Attila the Professor said:
I do worry, however, that audiences might, like Willie, find the village and people silly or off-putting.

Well, you have to show the effect of the evil if you want s to root for the hero...

Attila the Professor said:
Remember that Raiders audience I mentioned laughing at the Imam's voice?

I recall it but not enough to get your point.

Attila the Professor said:
After all, Willie's line "I had bugs for lunch" invites us to connect that food to the spare offerings she received at the village. (Never mind that that was the prior day, seeing as one night had elapsed.)

Ah Willie...are we supposed to pay her mind? I'd sooner find lasting meaning in the prepubecent lyrics of Debbie Gibson's "Shake Your Love". But since you're being generous in your interpretation I'll walk with you for a while.

Colonel Corey said:
You know, all this rude talk of Indiana Jones being racist makes me want to scream and jump out a 500 story window.

Just make sure you don't land on anybody...

Montana Smith · Dec 15, 2012

Rocket Surgeon said:
Just make sure you don't land on anybody...

Especially the little Chinese kid sitting in the stolen car in the street below.

Rocket Surgeon said:
Well, you have to show the effect of the evil if you want s to root for the hero...

And there it is again.

Indiana Jones reasserts the natural order of the world from a western perspective, whether he wanted to or not.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 15, 2012

Montana Smith said:
And there it is again.

Indiana Jones reasserts the natural order of the world from a western perspective, whether he wanted to or not.

I guess Greece is considered "western" enough...?

Vance · Dec 16, 2012

Montana Smith said:
It also adds to the strangeness of being within the household of a cult long thought destroyed. Something is obviously not quite right.

You know, this could work if it wasn't being so heavily played for laughs (which also undermines the cut dialog shown above ) - and if it wasn't also interfering with some very important dialog between Indiana and Chatter Lal. If, after the dinner, Indy had told Willie (in trying to calm her down) "This isn't right, that's not exactly a normal meal here," it could have served as a plot-important clue about the area's corruption... Of course, this is a major problem with the movie in the first place, a serious lack of appropriate mood-setting and story foreshadowing.

As for the 'didn't mean to be racist' argument, this is true, but very very few people really mean to be. It's usually done out out of a type of ignorance or callousness - the inability to put yourself in anothers' shoes. I definately can say that that's what we saw in Temple of Doom. For those of you that have read the line notes from Lucas's various movies, it's really hard to say that 'cultural sensitivity' rated anywhere on his moralimeter.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 16, 2012

There is every indication that where they are going is a place of evil , from the title of the film to the lamentations of the shaman, up to the reactions of Sanju and the other guides.

The odd thing is meeting an Oxford educated Indian who knows who Indiana Jones is. Its just this bit of unexpected "Western" influence which makes the idea that a long dead perversion returning even stranger if not more likely misunderstood. The meal itself, designed to be a gag, pun intended, is just another unexpected and glaring example that things are not what they seem.

A stereotype would indicate that this was already an established or pervasive observation about Indian culture.

Where besides Temple of Doom can you illustrate a similar portrayal...one that remotely qualifies the dinner scene as a stereotype?

Vance · Dec 16, 2012

Rocket Surgeon said:
There is every indication that where they are going is a place of evil , from the title of the film to the lamentations of the shaman, up to the reactions of Sanju and the other guides.

We're not given a 'base line' for Indian culture from which to compare. By cutting the important dialog which states that something is very off, and there's a deliberate attempt to scare off the British, you lose the very important contrast.

Let's assume that Willie and Short Round are ignorant of Indian cuisine, (though this is really stretching it)... a little bit of dialog after the fact could have helped the audience (and Willie) along. The perfect place for this would have been the apple sequence (Indiana explicitly telling Wilie that that's NOT normal food and they're trying to scare us off... her replying that it nearly worked, etc.) ... rather than that scene too being played for laughs.

What you have to judge is the final cut of the movie, though. Indiana Jones treats the meal as normal, Willie and Shorty are played for laughs, there is NO dialog or hint that the meal is unusual for India (at least in Indiana Jone's world), and we even lose some important exposition and conflict dialog in the 'gag' going on.

A stereotype would indicate that this was already an established or pervasive observation about Indian culture.

But this is the way the movie presents India.

Where besides Temple of Doom can you illustrate a similar portrayal...one that remotely qualifies the dinner scene as a stereotype?

Sadly, lots of pulps... and more than a few movies of the 1950s-1960s period.

Rocket Surgeon · Dec 16, 2012

Vance said:
We're not given a 'base line' for Indian culture from which to compare. By cutting the important dialog which states that something is very off, and there's a deliberate attempt to scare off the British, you lose the very important contrast.

Let's assume that Willie and Short Round are ignorant of Indian cuisine, (though this is really stretching it)... a little bit of dialog after the fact could have helped the audience (and Willie) along. The perfect place for this would have been the apple sequence (Indiana explicitly telling Wilie that that's NOT normal food and they're trying to scare us off... her replying that it nearly worked, etc.) ... rather than that scene too being played for laughs.

What you have to judge is the final cut of the movie, though. Indiana Jones treats the meal as normal, Willie and Shorty are played for laughs, there is NO dialog or hint that the meal is unusual for India (at least in Indiana Jone's world), and we even lose some important exposition and conflict dialog in the 'gag' going on.

But this is the way the movie presents India.

Sadly, lots of pulps... and more than a few movies of the 1950s-1960s period.

Where is the all important dialog which states this represents all of India?

You say it needs dialog to contrast and show people this is not India and I say the film doesn't make any claim that it is. There is no hint , no dialog which claims this represents India as a whole. They take certain care to qualify the palace and the maharajah.

This is the way the film presents Pankot Palace.

What movies?

Indiana Jones films: racist?

Are the Indiana Jones Films Racist?

No

Yes - all of them

Raiders of the Lost Ark

Temple of Doom

Last Crusade

Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

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