Williams' score

I really like parts of TODs soundtrack. There is one particular part I really like, but can't recall which part it sounds on. I'll find out eventually. I think it is during when the kids are being freed.

On Crystal Skull, I really like the music when Indy and Marion and Mutt approach Irina in their jeep, and she stands in the road clutching the skull in the bag, adamant they will not take it from her - and the camera zooms in to her face. The music on that bit is very good. I can't recall too much from it yet, but I remember the skulls theme, and Irina's being nice.

Darth Vile said:

Overall, I think it relies way too heavily on the 'Raiders March' motif, has an opening piece that is a Cole Porter composition i.e. not a Williams original and has a couple of very trite tracks e.g. 'Short Round's theme' and 'Children in Chains'.

Click to expand...

I don't really think "Short Round's Theme" and "Children in Chains" are at all trite. I think those themes are very strong, memorable, and appropriate. And I love "Jungle Trek" and other such cues.

Darth Vile said:

Now don't get me wrong, even Williams at his worst still delivers the goods e.g. 'Nocturnal Activities', but TOD is no where near as rounded, mature and complex as the score for KOTCS (IMHO).

Click to expand...

Well, it's not a positive with Indiana Jones when you get a well-rounded, mature, and complex score. Indiana Jones needs the score of an adventure serial. It needs a thrill ride score with blaring, memorable themes and an adrenaline rush. That's what Indiana Jones is about, and it's really where the LAST CRUSADE score misses the boat - it's far too straight-faced.

KINGDOM's score isn't quite so straight-faced as CRUSADE, but I really don't think it has the same caliber of memorable, striking thematic material as was given to us in RAIDERS, TEMPLE, or even CRUSADE. I think the only theme that stands out is the theme for the skull itself, which is used nicely throughout the score.

I love all of Williams' scores for each film. They all help to make the films feel like Indiana films, but also, differenciate each one. Raiders has that dark gritty mysterious music when the ark was opened/put in the warehouse. You get the sense of some dark, hidden power in the Ark. The romantic Marion's theme, and the adventerous wild truck chase.

Temple of Doom has a more "comic book" like soundtrack - the river rapids music is great and very "adventure" like - then we have the darker side of the movies soundtrack, when Indy and co are captive. Then we have the dark, yet glorious music when Indy is freeing the children, as he fights back.

Last Crusade has generally very serious music to it, and it creates a very haunting, eerie feeling, much eerie than raiders I feel- cause here we have people in search for a item to grant iternal life. The music on this is a mix of eerie, glorious and sad and really does represent "faith" well. The illumination theme is really nice and sentimental, and I love the start of "the pentinent man will pass". If you have windows media player, try pasting this link in to your browser. The music from 11 seconds on, is really haunting, and really suits the feeling of Last Crusade well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...12/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_012/002-3763647-8081630

As for Crystal Skull, seems quite like TOD, in respects it has the more "comic" book kind of soundtrack feeling to it, with eerie elements, such as the skulls motif. I really like the jungle chase scene, with the Raiders/Tank chase scene bits spliced in to it, and it especially shines when the camera zooms in to an adamant looking spalko gripping the skull in the bag. I recall the music when the craft first takes off, also having an ominous, yet unearthly feel to it, as if Indy can't believe what he is seeing.

I think he has done a great job on all soundtracks, but I think Temple of Doom and Last Crusade have the best music overall.

agentsands77,

I refer to my 2 definitions yesterday, and as I stated... the two are not mutually exclusive i.e. you can have a great piece of music that does nothing for the movie and visa vera. However, musically (IMHO) Crusade transcends the two with great aplomb. Not only does it stand proud as a piece of work in it's own right (i.e. it works standalone from an Indiana Jones movie), but it also has rousing action pieces such as 'Scherzo For Motorcycle' and 'Belly of the Steel Beast'.

As far as my reference to the trite tracks of TOD, I think 'Short Round's Theme' is closer to 'Parade of the Ewoks' than it is to 'The Imperial March' or' Duel of the Fates'. That's the point I was trying to make with that one...

Darth Vile said:

I refer to my 2 definitions yesterday.

Click to expand...

Yes. And I submit that how a score fits its respective film is the more important of the two categories.

Darth Vile said:

Musically (IMHO) Crusade is leaps and bounds ahead of TOD.

Click to expand...

Maybe. I'm not convinced CRUSADE does anything especially brilliant. It's more straight-faced than TEMPLE, and doesn't rely upon the Raiders march anywhere near as much, but compositionally I don't think it's showing anything much more advanced. Just different.

Darth Vile said:

As far as my reference to the trite tracks of TOD, I think 'Short Round's Theme' is closer to 'Parade of the Ewoks' than it is to 'The Imperial March' or' Duel of the Fates'. That's the point I was trying to make with that one...

Click to expand...

Ah. But that hardly makes it necessarily inferior.

agentsands77 said:

Maybe. I'm not convinced CRUSADE does anything especially brilliant.

Ah. But that hardly makes it necessarily inferior.

Click to expand...

I think the Crusade soundtrack does a really good thing, it is very sentimental and represents the "faith" side of things well, and sounds very glorious. I don't think any other Indiana films have an overall sentimental theme like Crusades.

agentsands77,

Just in reference to your last post...

Point 1 - I think we're talking at cross-purposes... I'm talking about Williams score as opposed to the KOTCS soundtrack. As a piece of music it's great, as a soundtrack, I can only state that it worked for me (but I was already very familiar with it before I saw the movie - so that helped)

Point 2 - We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Clearly whether one likes a piece of music (or not) is pretty much subjective.

Point 3 – Again it’s subjective as to whether you like something or not… but on a musical footing, I would state that the tracks from TOD are lesser pieces because they do not transcend the genre to the extent that pieces from LC and KOTCS do.

Darth Vile said:

Point 2 - We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Clearly whether one likes a piece of music (or not) is pretty much subjective.

Click to expand...

I was speaking from more objective musical analysis. Technically, Williams does nothing more innovative on CRUSADE that he hadn't done on TEMPLE.

Darth Vile said:

Point 3 ? Again it?s subjective as to whether you like something or not? but on a musical footing, I would state that the tracks from TOD are lesser pieces because they do not transcend the genre to the extent that pieces from LC and KOTCS do.

Click to expand...

I'd take issue with that. To be genre-transcending, they have to get the genre to begin with. LAST CRUSADE never does, and that's the problem. On the other hand, KINGDOM gets the genre, but I fail to see how it ever manages to transcend it. Or do much of anything interesting, really.

dont get me wrong i think williams is brilliant. but if you want to see (hear) real overuse of the same theme, look at harry potter and the socerers' stone. good lord that damn theme was everywhere all over that cd.

overuse does weaken a score, no questions asked. people want to hear something new. I dont mind the occassional throw in of a theme to familiarize us the listeners to previous motifs but blatant prolific use of them is down right wrong.

to me perfect example of theme usage was in the closing of revenge of the sith, where luke, leia, yoda and vader's theme were all thrown in there just as a "hint" of whats to come. (have to think outside the box as to the original 3 being later in the timeline.)

and as for them being good scores... hell yeah. i rather listen to anything williams over the "classics". (I once had an orchestration teacher whom said williams was a hack, to which i turned around to the professor and said "Well atleast his music will be played and remembered as opposed to your crap. Needless to say, I failed that course. lol)

The only new theme I really liked was Mutt. The others were forgettable.

The music was good as always from john williams, but nothing really stood out as excellent to me.

Agentsands77,

Listen to Williams?s use of arpeggio in ?The Penitent Man Will pass?, or his use of triple time patterns and staccato strings in ?Scherzo For a Motorcycle?, which has the very clever mancando ending to it as the notes diminish?. Or simply the giocoso mandolin in ?Escape from Venice?. Bloody brilliant! It?s a really rich tapestry of a score? and whilst I DO like the score for TOD, I just think it isn?t quite as broad or as rich.

Also, I think Williams does ?get the genre? i.e. it?s a stylized and romanticized take on a period movie (so I may be missing your point). As far as transcending genre goes? I come back to my ole? Beatles analogies. For example, ?She Loves You? and ?Strawberry Fields Forever?. Two brilliant songs by the same artist, but only one truly transcends the label of popular music? The same can be said for Williams?s work, of which there are many examples.

I have really nothing to say about the soundtrack considering I haven't listened to the whole thing, but I wanted to say that for those in New England and New York, John Williams is conducting the Boston Pops in his movie music at Tanglewood on Saturday, July 26. I might be out of town then but will be there if I'm in town. I bet there'll be some Indy on July 4 as well; I'll be there since it's Indy Pendants day. I got a hotel room in the Cambridge Marriott, close to the action.

emtiem said:

a) That's just a soundbite; not a reply to what I said,
b) Are we still talking about Indiana Jones films? These aren't exactly stripped-down Dogme arthouse efforts- they're exercises in excess! With Indy, more is more!



Well, you're wrong. It's the weakest Indy score but that still makes it a very good score: if you're not expecting to hear to old themes then probably a sequel isn't the thing to buy the soundtrack of, let alone the third sequel.
And no; no Short Round or Grail theme in there: there's the Jones family/Henry Sr. theme in there, but not on the CD. The new themes are very decent indeed, however. I'm glad the film and album came out: I imagine you are too in some way otherwise you wouldn't take the enjoyment of bashing it on this thread. If it was that awful why not just forget it and move on? Use your time for something you actually enjoy: unless you're actually rather happy that it did come out so you can have fun spending your time trashing it on here.

Click to expand...

William's score was an appropriate let-down. I bought it May 20th and I've honestly not listened to it since the film's release. It's just filler. Even The Raider's March sounds more efficient than spirited. It's hardly his fault either. How do you indelibly score scenes as unmemorable as these..?

ResidentAlien said:

And no thanks. I don't need to abuse my ears on that prepackaged tripe when there's so much good music to hear. Reusing the Ark Theme, Grail Theme, Short Round's theme too if I recall... Why? Because Williams is just as washed up as everyone else involved in that sorry mess.

Click to expand...

Don't think Williams re-used the "Grail Theme" or "Short Rounds Theme" in the KOTCS OST??? Besides... that's all part of 'Le Motif' style that Williams has employed with both Star Wars and Indiana Jones isn't it??? I'd sooner have a Williams score than the turgid TDK soundtrack.

The Man said:

William's score was an appropriate let-down. I bought it May 20th and I've honestly not listened to it since the film's release. It's just filler. Even The Raider's March sounds more efficient than spirited. It's hardly his fault either. How do you indelibly score scenes as unmemorable as these..?

Click to expand...

C'mon - That's not how a lot of this works and you know it... Someone like Williams will come with a wealth of ideas (or not) before they even see a frame. Where Williams is scoring actual cues for action scenes, then yes... more often than not he'll obviously score fresh against footage (but much of that doesn't make up the OST). Mutt's, Irina's and the Crystal Skull themes need nothing more than a brief description from Spielberg and Lucas e.g. "Son of Indy", "Russian Femme Fatale" and "Plot Macguffin" for Williams to put pen to paper/fingers to piano keys.

Ultimately the music is Williams?s responsibility. Like it or not... Spielberg and Lucas can't take much responsibility for the soundtrack (although I think it's actually the 3rd best of the 4).

The Man said:

William's score was an appropriate let-down. I bought it May 20th and I've honestly not listened to it since the film's release. It's just filler. Even The Raider's March sounds more efficient than spirited. It's hardly his fault either. How do you indelibly score scenes as unmemorable as these..?

Click to expand...

Give it another try- there's plenty of good stuff in there. It's no way as boring as something like listening to the Casino Royale soundtrack (which was lauded as being good but is a pretty dulll listen). It's a shame that a lot of it doesn't take off- the Jungle Chase is very disappointing- but it's still good and does grow on you.

emtiem said:

Give it another try- there's plenty of good stuff in there. It's no way as boring as something like listening to the Casino Royale soundtrack (which was lauded as being good but is a pretty dulll listen). It's a shame that a lot of it doesn't take off- the Jungle Chase is very disappointing- but it's still good and does grow on you.

Click to expand...

I think "The Jungle Chase" is classic... just a shame that it relies a little too much on Mutt's theme.

emtiem said:

Give it another try- there's plenty of good stuff in there. It's no way as boring as something like listening to the Casino Royale soundtrack (which was lauded as being good but is a pretty dulll listen). It's a shame that a lot of it doesn't take off- the Jungle Chase is very disappointing- but it's still good and does grow on you.

Click to expand...

I do remember that really uplifting variation on The Raiders March at end of the final track, just before Mutt's Theme kicks in. That was lovely, alright...

Darth Vile said:

I think "The Jungle Chase" is classic... just a shame that it relies a little too much on Mutt's theme.

Click to expand...

I just don't think it really gets going- Truck Chase and Belly of the Steel Beast just get more and more exciting; Jungle Chase doesn't really build anywhere, which is a shame. Plus there's a lot more in the movie which isn't on the cd: a nice version of the secondary part of the Raiders March when Indy is taking on a car full of Russians, for example.