CGI in KotCS [Pre-release discussion]

barranca said:

If they'd had cgi back in the 80's they'd have used it.

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Actually, they did. Three-dimensional CGI was first used in Futureworld, released in 1976, which featured a computer-generated hand and face created by Edwin Catmull and Fred Parke. Star Wars used CGI for the scenes with the Death Star plans. The first two films to make heavy investments in CGI, were Tron (1982) and The Last Starfighter (1984), though they were commercial failures, causing most directors to relegate CGI to images that were supposed to look like they were created by a computer. The first real CGI character was created by Pixar for the film Young Sherlock Holmes in 1985 (not counting the simple polyhedron character Bit in Tron). It took the form of a knight composed of elements from a stained glass window. CGI did not win over the motion picture industry until 1989, however, when The Abyss won the Academy Award for Visual Effects. Industrial Light and Magic (ILM) produced complex CGI visual effects, most notably a seawater creature dubbed the pseudopod, featuring in one scene of the film. CGI then took a central role in Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991), in which the T-1000 Terminator villain wowed audiences with liquid metal and morphing effects fully integrated into action sequences throughout the film. Terminator 2 also won ILM an Oscar for its effects.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....not quite the same though was it? , I was around in those days, unlike some who weren't even gilmmers in their daddies eyes!

I forgot to mention that Lucas and Spielburg both said in the Special Features disc of the trilogy, and many other interviews, they wanted to do it like old Hollywood and not use CGI. Spielburg seems to be holding true to that, though Lucas obviously isn't in his movies, i.e. Star Wars.

They've probably did as much as what they could without CGI and then did what needs be with it. Yeah they would use blue screen, but didn't they use rear screen projection for stuff in Temple of Doom nad Last Crusade? Whats the difference?

In response to WillKill4 food's comment about having CGI back in the 80's. Granted they had it, but not at the level they do now. They couldn't do the things they can do now back in 1989. Watch the making of Jurassic park to see a lot of the development of CGI. I mean even Terminator II had good CG, but still they had guys flying into empty canals attached to wires.

So the statement should read, if the technology today was as good as it was back then they would have used it.

Also I think you can tell that a lot of stuff was practical. Exploding crates though. Imagine all those splinters? Well definitely got to involve CGI in that one. Even if it's matting actors on to a background of live elements.

I am not too worried about the CGI until I see the movie, it will dependo on how many times they use it? If every scene has a CGI shot, I might be a little bent. They always did real for real, that is what made them Indy movies. Yes they used new technology (at the time) to do stuff, true. But when Indiana was getting dragged behind the truck in raiders, that was real!

Real stunt guy and real Harrison. If they are doing all that with CGI it will be unacceptable for me.

INDY SWINGING ON THE LIGHT SHADE BIT:

What has to be stated here is that all art is subjective. Some people really don’t mind computer generated effects...they love it, and some really are very much against...add into this, that some people don’t even see what’s computer generated and what isn’t...but some people do, and it bothers them. I personally would never do a CG merging of real live action crossing over into CG stuntman (that was very much a individual big stunt)...ie CG Harrison Ford himself, and put it slap bang in the centre stage / centre of the shot...which LOOKS like what has happened on this whip swing on light shot...that shot FEELS like its been done like that. It may NOT be CG, but to me personally, my personal opinion on this is...that...it IS cg..(may be wrong) (just my speculation)

Now that will bother some, and not bother others...its controversial, of course its controversial. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (at this stage in the speculation) is looking very stand alone...completely new look going on here.

The reasons that the people are against CG are that it takes out that random element, that random human element, it becomes far too smooth, precise, the computer just renders out the animation perfectly along the key frames and to some people, we instantly almost subconsciously spot it straight away. What your looking at is so smooth and I would add even that it almost takes out the suspense too, it takes out the danger of the stunt. Again this is very controversial. None of us want stunt men to end up dead, we all want things to be safe, but you cant deny the fact that when we see the real thing, its all the more impressive...you go “holy crap, that guy really DID jump from that horse to that truck” and it was DANGEROUS. Something to be in awe about...a spectacle.

I’m not saying that we cant be in awe about CG, we can, we occasionally get something that is very impressive like say Gollum for example or Davy Jones.

KEEPING CG SUBTLE:

It’s controversial again...what constitutes as subtle will vary from person to person. I myself have NO PROBLEMS with CG being used the way it has been in quite a few films now, where we see a explosion of fire hitting men, engulfing them in fire. I’ve seen a lot of shots like that, that have worked extremely well over the last fifteen years...maybe because they are usually silhouettes because the light is behind them and also perhaps, because it all happens so fast in a explosion.

Sometimes real things look like cg or a miniature, and sometimes cg things look real or a miniature...it varies greatly. The mordern TV Battle Star Galitica series, the CG in that, for the space ships, is simply AMAZING.

I can always tell when something is CG. It's like looking at Tony Little,

something just doesn't look right.

I was a little surprised by how much my CG detector detected in the trailer. I have a CG detector in my brain.

I'm all about some more fluid camera movements, but I hope they showed off all the CGI in the trailer.

I still think Jurassic Park had the best CG. Probably because they had something to prove back then.

FURTHER ANALYSIS ON THE SHOT:

You know, this is a strange one...I’m beginning to feel that it is indeed real...OR, extremely good CG...it is of course (if it is indeed CG) the very latest CG... but sadly I cant view it on this computer at high res at a decent frame rate. Its very odd how the whip disappears into the lamp shade also.

I guarantee you Indy in that scene is a real person, either Ford or a stuntman. They may have matted out harneses and may have added a digital hanging light, but it definitely is a classic hollywood stunt.

Mike, I'm positive that is a real person. If there was any CG used in that shot, it was when he cracked the whip right before he jumped. It looks kind of cartoonish, but it was only a silhouette so that doesn't bother me so much as the cliff-side chase or the four gigantic stone things raising up in the air.

The lamp might be superimposed to cover whatever the whip is really attached to.

Yeah, I think the lamp is CGI or something... but that's it. The rest is a traditional stunt. IMO.

Life isn't forever, so I'm ecstatic about this trailer, but let's be real here - this cgi content is not cool. If you don't notice that much of the trailer is an over polished glossy ambient than good for you, but I do and it;s a shame. It's funny, the LAST thing I expected was that this would be - the one thing Spielberg assured us of was a mislead... and I'm disgusted in that Spiderman scene in the warehouse... but whatever, it's Indiana Jones, it could still be good despite that - it certainly looks it, there's a lot of intrigue and heavy stuff going on toward the end of the trailer, I like the last action snippets a lot!

Matthew said:

Life isn't forever, so I'm ecstatic about this trailer, but let's be real here - this cgi content is not cool. If you don't notice that much of the trailer is an over polished glossy ambient than good for you, but I do and it;s a shame. It's funny, the LAST thing I expected was that this would be - the one thing Spielberg assured us of was a mislead... and I'm disgusted in that Spiderman scene in the warehouse... but whatever, it's Indiana Jones, it could still be good despite that - it certainly looks it, there's a lot of intrigue and heavy stuff going on toward the end of the trailer, I like the last action snippets a lot!

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After thinking about that particular whip scene a lot. I think it's fine. I mean, what about it is so fake? I think it's that he is running as he throws out the whip to get the light. If he had stood there and took the time to reach the light with the whip BEFORE the truck got there and THEN missed it... well, that would have seemed more real. Outside of that I don't see what is so bad about it. I mean, if you just think it can't hold his weight... well, I mean, who's to say the cables in LC could ya know? ....

There is the part where he barely misses the two trucks crashing into each other but... ehh... your not seeing the whole scene... and I dunno. I'm just not that bothered by it. As you said it's still Indiana Jones and will probably rock!

The thing about it is, you have to use CGI in some shots. It would just look too fake for today to not use it. I watched the trailer again, but I don't see all that many obvious CGI ANIMATED (ephasis on purely CG created objects) outside of the wheel thing that almost hits the truck... the pillars that move in the temple near the end (the steps do not seem CG or anything)... the lamp post possibly in the warehouse... the explosion in the warehouse... and uhm, I think that's it.

On a side note. I do think the explosion should have been just a shot from a distance of it blowing up instead of a super-close 2008 shot of everyone getting blown away in the fireball.

I respect that, but to me the lamp swinging is way too superhero'd out, whip swing travel to fast moving cars inside an action sequence in the possible ark warehouse is looks completely awful to me, (off topic but I'm dying for this warehouse to be coincidence). What's w/ the native antagonists in the temple, and running down the stairs, are none of them real? Anyone have thoughts on his silhoutte hat adjustment scene, I mean I wonder if that figures into the film or if it's just for the trailer? Anyway, when I see his legs walk over and pick it up it just looks fake... I mean even the solid ground looks cgi conjured. Is it ironic that the most authentic looking image that sticks in my mind after watching the trailer each time is Harrison's face?

One more gripe, the music in for the first 3 films was weak, it would have been PERFECT if they could have just done No Ticket's teaser idea and transitioned to our new film!

Again, I'm utterly thrilled this is here, speechless etc.

Matthew said:

I respect that, but to me the lamp swinging is way too superhero'd out, whip swing travel to fast moving cars inside an action sequence in the possible ark warehouse is looks completely awful to me, (off topic but I'm dying for this warehouse to be coincidence). What's w/ the native antagonists in the temple, and running down the stairs, are none of them real? Anyone have thoughts on his silhoutte hat adjustment scene, I mean I wonder if that figures into the film or if it's just for the trailer? Anyway, when I see his legs walk over and pick it up it just looks fake... I mean even the solid ground looks cgi conjured. Is it ironic that the most authentic looking image that sticks in my mind after watching the trailer each time is Harrison's face?

One more gripe, the music in for the first 3 films was weak, it would have been PERFECT if they could have just done No Ticket's teaser idea and transitioned to our new film!

Again, I'm utterly thrilled this is here, speechless etc.

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The music WAS weak. It wasn't even John Williams. But, I think that's because he hasn't finished the score yet. Either way, any music from the others... grail theme, ark, something... would've been better. I mean, it should sound like Indy music, not National Treasure or something.

I get what you mean about him picking up the hat. I'm thinking that was probably done for the trailer only. I mean, unless that is the very first opening scene of the movie... that's the only other reason I could see them doing a shot that "reveals" Indiana Jones like that. Like, we just start at Area 51 or wherever that is and they throw him out of the car and he picks his hat up and suddenly we're on an adventure and hey Indy's back.

That being said... I didn't think the ground looks fake. But you gotta remember, blue screen work and such is SO much better now... even if they DON'T use CGI. I mean, when Indy's flying the plane in LC, you know it's blue-screen and kinda fake. In TOD, puppets are knocking back and forth in mine cars. The water effect at the end of the tunnels where Shorty is flailing his arms looks horribly fake. In LC, the snake that pops out of the water on the train looks dumb. The plane crashes into a mountain in TOD and the fireball just disappears almost instantly with no plane parts, looks like a super imposed explosion (which it is).

The difference is. Back then, fake was still real stuff (puppets, miniatures, etc.) or it was a painting that looks more like a painting... digital matte paintings just look so much more real (which is maybe what they're doing as the cars run along the edge there)...

But regardless, I do think they attempted to make it like they did then. They're just making it in 2007/8. Nothing you can do about that.

barranca said:

This post belongs in the main thread.

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It belongs in a museum!

I do hope they used proper aliens, not some cgi creation, otherwise I'm gonna be hearbroken.

Get real people, please!

The lamp?

Are we really concerened about...

The LAMP????

Cmon - guys - you have been anticipating this film for as long as I have - surely you have more to offer that worrying about... The lamp...

How about the absolute magesty of the set peices that show our herous falling into quick sand - and the race down a crazt satircase afterwards? Is that Abner with them? Is he carrying the skull? We certainly see Marion - and what a kick to see her and Indy and Mutt ducking for cover in that jeep (from what???)

And how about the cliff chase scene? I supposae some people hate the CGI - bit it sure looks better than a painting..

And how frickin cool (and sexy) does Cate Blanchet look? She has such a great and memorable pose and expression when she is trying to run them off the cliff - just a great actress chewing up her scenery...

and the waterfalls....

GREAT choice - definately brings it to a new level and I cannot wait to see what happens here!!!

- I must also comment on the look and feel of the film - it looks polished enough but has obviously been given enough treatment to give it a 50's serial feel!

Great choice to incorportate Roswell. Lucas hasn't had alot of good ideas (sorry SW prequel fans) - but this is actaully a very cool idea.

I am psyched!!!!

WATERFALLS:

The waterfall shot is truly beautiful and I do believe it's 100% real. If they *have* added anything to this to make it a slightly more fictional place,like painted in some different terrain...then they have done a truly amazing job.

STAIRCASE:

I love it, absolutely love it, I?m very excited about there being water at the bottom too, I don?t know what it is but I love scenes with water. I was truly over the moon when I saw that behind the scenes shot of them wading around in water.

THE PLANE SHOT:

What does everybody make of this one?...is this a CG plane?...is the entire thing CG?...very King Kong inspired?...I must say its another case where I dont know what it is I'm looking at, the plane feels very CG...its odd, it really could be a case of it LOOKING CG but actually being real...but I dont know, I've seen a LOT of CG plane work though, there was a short film that was very much like The RIght Stuff that was entirely done with old 50s CG planes and it looked EXACTLY like this. I love the coast line with those three towery things to the left in the mist, though the shot is a very yellow.