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Old 05-20-2005, 11:06 PM   #51
Deadlock
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WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS!

I agree with my man, Ska… both on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKAbatula
Is ROTS worth watching? Yes.

Is ROTS the best out of the prequel trilogy? Yes.

Is ROTS the best out of the entire SW series? No.

…and on your lightsaber insights. You really hit that one on the head.

I enjoyed the movie. I left the theater without having that feeling that I’d just been ripped off. I enjoyed the dark atmosphere and the film’s tighter focus.

But…

As I started thinking harder about the movie, things started to occur to me.

One thing that caught my attention was ROTS used many elements from the original trilogy (especially from Empire Strikes Back). It wasn’t just people and places, but also shots, dialogue, and soundtrack. Now this may be perfectly appropriate, as this was the final piece of the bridge. But after thinking about it, I’m not so sure. It’s as if ROTS was trying to leech on the positive feelings I have for the original trilogy by trying to copy it more closely. I couldn’t believe how similar the Kenobi/Anakin fight in ROTS was to the Skywalker/Vader fight in ESB: same tight hallways, same cross-country battle, same precarious fighting out on narrow catwalks.

Though greatly improved, I still think the dialogue was pretty clunky in places. Much of the Anakin/Padme stuff didn’t work for me; though their last (and most important) conversation was the exception. Which is good. For all 3 prequels, I haven’t been able to swallow Samuel L. Jackson’s lines… I don’t know what it is, but they all just sound really bogus to me.

Besides the styling of the film I had some issues with the story too.

First of all, the Anakin’s turn to the dark side. The angle the movie took was very unexpected, at least to me. Having Anakin torn between two sides claiming to offer the best way toward galactic peace and pulling him in two directions, was… well… I lot more complex than what I was expecting. Okay, on to my problem: one minute Anakin is telling Mace Windu how he shouldn’t cut down a “defenseless” person and feels morally justified in saving Palpatine. Two minutes later, he’s hacking down cute little Jedi-kiddies. What???

Which leads me to my next point: What’s up with the Jedi Order?! They spy on people, try to kill downed opponents, put hits out on people, leave wounded former members to die… What the heck, dude? Where’s the moral high ground? It seems that the Jedi fell victim to an “ends justifies the means” attitude. This doesn’t seem consistent with the stoicism and morality we’d seen previously… especially the difference between Obi Wan leaving Anakin to fry versus Luke lugging Vader down to a shuttle bay. That seemed really merciless and out-of-place.

Finally, Padme. I know she was pregnant with twins and all (and BTW what’s up with her not knowing? Is there no pre-natal care on Coruscant?)… but she was SO marginalized in this movie. EP1, she’s a pistol-packing queen. EP2, slight demotion to pistol-packing senator. EP3, she gets cut down to simpering hair-brusher trapped in a tower like Rapunzel. This problem was only magnified by her death… She died of a broken heart?! Where’s the Leia-esque verve? Doesn’t she want to live for her kids’ sake? Lame.
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Old 05-21-2005, 12:13 AM   #52
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I don't like the title of the movie; e.g. the anagram of Sith.
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Old 05-21-2005, 09:07 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Vogel
I don't like the title of the movie; e.g. the anagram of Sith.

you mean: THIS ?
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Old 05-21-2005, 10:41 AM   #54
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Hits? Hist? Htis? Htsi? Hsti? Hsit? Thsi? Tish? Tshi? This? Tsih? Itsh? Iths? Isht? Isth? Ihts? Ihst? Siht? Shti? Sthi? Stih?
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Old 05-21-2005, 01:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
EP3, she gets cut down to simpering hair-brusher trapped in a tower like Rapunzel.

HAHAHAHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
Doesn’t she want to live for her kids’ sake? Lame.

Damn I forgot to add that in my review. Yeah the fact that she just gave life to twins didn't seem to give her any will to live. It sounds like even if she had lived, we would have seen her on Springer sooner or later for child abandonment.

EDIT: to fix my quote error...computers...meh!
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Old 05-21-2005, 04:34 PM   #56
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Post Instant classic - last piece of the puzzle

I'm not gonna rehearse every good remark already made, still I gotta write these lines down for the sake of fandom. I think you guys caught the main pieces that are worth discussing.

Episode III was surprising, unless you read the novel/screenplay, have a very visual mind and seen the thousand of spoiler photos. I personnaly think - regarding the main plot lines and drama - Lucas couldn't have pulled this one off better than it is. Narratively and in the wider visual parts, it's truly epic.
The very slow process that turned Anakin into Vader, his serious and potentially succesfull attempt to quiet the darker sides of his inner self (even apologizing to Kenobi seemed a beakon of hope) was well portrayed.
By the slow turning web of deceit built by Palpatine around Anakin, as by the ambiguous decisions of the Jedi Council it's clear nothing was clear, black-and-white anymore, the line between good and right becomes dangerously thin in ROTS.

The feel of hesitation and non-linearity marks the movie, contrary to the previous prequels, where the enigma unravels without much plotting, conspiracy. Of course there are subplots of deceit, but it all culminates to a unsurpassed climax in ROTS. The large opening was just an attempt at showing-off in CG and sharp turning camera angles, though I expected the war to open up rather fast, but all came to the dazzling effect: a deep view down below to the manic war maze of battleships. Only good droid humor in the beginning (not the Astromech versus surface spaceship sabotage droid) was R2 having to shut up the comlink he got to communicate with the jedi. Yoda's bashing imperial Crimson Guards (in red) in Palpatine's office by a simple force push was sublime (same effect as the Ninja-type, arms-up position in Ep II): 'I've had enough, no bull****' attitude. In TPM, Yoda even looked confuzingly fuzzier and less-serious than AOTC & ROTS. ROTS: realistic frowning and force-fealt pain of death (like a head-ache).

Anakin's grimmy make-up was excellent, adding to the hatefull expression that was very realistic and truly meant (I'll always remember the lines 'You put her up against me !!!' and 'I hate youuuu !!!' ) At one time, I even thought in some parts he faintly reminded me of a focused-looking Jeff Goldblum. Yet I also heard comments on how Palpatine's degenerated face (at the end of the struggle with Windu and further on), that the rubber mask looked a bit clodded over the eyes. Apparently, one of the characters on the Star Destroyer bridge was a CG rendering of Grand Moff Tarkin, of whom a friend remarked he moved away too woodenly - too obviously CG.

I even loved the introduction and entire campaign feel to Kashyyyk. Lucas manages to keep expanding the armor vehicle technology and infantry (increasingly diverse Clone regimental color insignia and strategic outlining as in AOTC), to a point that I'm giving up looking up all the specs and names.

As to Padmé's 'smaller' part: I also had the feeling it was always Anakin conforting her whenever he came back shortly and needed to depart in a hurry. The stuff that really made my throat clogg up was him killing younglings without mercy; the tragic, fearless execution of 'Order 66' by the Clones resulting in Jedi genocide - really the feel of helplessness and cold betrayal of the Jedi moved me as well as the inhumane suffering of Anakin's massacred torso being crippled in flames and torturing emergency operation. Even the bold threatening of Bail Organa upon his arrival to the Temple made me realize the insanity of a totalitarious regime and the unjustified imperative of bureaucratic executive power (a great repetitive theme in the Indy series too: remember his furious outburst to the French administrator in Port Gentil).
I can't hold a grudge to the fact Obi-Wan leaves Anakin to fry - he's obliged to kill him in order to stop the madness, but he feels betrayed as a friend too. (Approximative) quote:"You were like a son to me!"

It was surprising, maybe even disapointing how fast Dooku was dealt with (bearing in mind he managed to severely injure both Jedi rather masterfully in AOTC). Although Anakin warns Dooku that his powers have doubled since their last encounter, it's not completely satisfactory. Dooku's catchy reply: (quote by approximation) 'The higher the ambition, the deeper her the fall' !

Also, Palpatine's ironic story of 'rise and fall of a Sith' (his Master whom he killed single-handedly), worked alright for me. Sometimes a pitty his voice acting, along with his laughs at times made him look like a comicbook caricature (reminding me of Gargamel from the Smurfs). Then again, Grievous Russian-alike voice may have seemed a bit overacted, but the only other option was that it sounded hoarse, and here he's snappy. I wish we'd seen more of the (rather small) alien inside him as Obi can-opened his carcass with his lightsaber, but him burning up from inside and his eyesockets ejecting flames was fair enough. Using a blaster to do the job was not Jedi style, but hey Kenobi simply crushed 3 or 4 of Grievous' guards with one block too, avoiding unnecessary stretching the action and pace of the story. The backsetting spinning action of forward-chopping lightsabers was a nice treat, but I guess it's hard enough synchronizing arm movements while cöordinating lightsaber blows for the experts at ILM.

It's weird how Palpatine, himself actually realizing that all great men who seize high(est) powers, eventually fall and succumb to their own weakness or hunger towards power (irony of was that the story's Sith Lord could prevent anyone from dying except himself), while he himself wishes to achieve ultimate power, having learned nothing from that lesson (that someday he'll eventually fall). Blinded by ambition and overconfidence allright. Breaking loose of the chains was OK, though Vader shouting "NOOOO!" after realizing Padmés death and Palpatine grinning in irony was too much of a cliché line not to catch the drama. He should've shouted something less pathetic, like: "Why !!!" (falling to his knees, cracking up the floor through raying his dark force anger instead of balling his fists like a moron, (then turning to Palpatine:) "You promised me she would live!... (shouting): "You... (pointing at Palpatine, maybe even attempting a shortly aborted choke on Palpatine) lied to me!" ... (Palpatine giving the comment how it was his choice to make , Vader looking up to a zoomed-in camera): I will revive/avenge you, Padmé. I will find a way." (then again, I'm not George Lucas).

Indeed, a lot of references to other films: close hallways, a space that reminiscenced the long surfboard-shaped bay in ESB whith walkway around it. Even the breaking of the panoramic window in Palpatine's chambers during the duel with Windu instantly reminded me of the dark Cloud City spiderweb glassed room in ESB. And the departure of Yoda was a great hommage to Spielberg's E.T.'s farewell to Elliot and capsule liftoff.

The birth of the twins are forever engraved in the minds of fans, the moment was only slightly spoiled by the medical droid. The delivery of Leia and especially Luke to Beru and Owen Lars was almost like romantic art. It moved me to tears, and didn't strike me as a cheesy moment, or a kitsch copy of Luke's watching the binary sunset. No, here I felt symbolic ties that bined the generations of the Star Wars protagonists, the feel of universal connectivity, although apart of distant worlds between the heirs of a destroyed Republic.

Last edited by DaFedora : 05-21-2005 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 05-21-2005, 05:32 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFedora
...Yoda's bashing imperial Crimson Guards in Palpatine's office by a simple force push was sublime...

That was about the only time the audience laughed when I saw it.
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Old 05-21-2005, 10:01 PM   #58
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My impression...with spoilers.

Spoilers included. I posted this somewhere else too, thought I'd share my opinion here as well.











Overall a good experience. The movie had its weak points but mostly, the good parts made up for it. One major beef I have is not about the movie itself but the theater. The sound levels were way too loud. I was cringing at every explosion. Not good.

So the whole story revolves around Anakin turning to the dark side. We see him seduced by Palpatine, yet it seems to be all happening too fast. I hear the movie was supposed to be 3 hour long, yet had to be shortened because of the PG13 rating and Luca's fears that a movie too long would keep moviegoers away.

Yeah, so what of Lord of the Rings? Didn't the last movie last 3+ hours? Anyway. Let's talk about the actors.

Samuel L. Jackson in his role as Mace Windu. Could Mace Windu be less likable than he was in Episode III? Here comes Anakin telling him all about Palpatine's plan but Mace Windu turns around and addresses him in a cold manner to reward him? No wonder Anakin turns to the dark side! I would have wanted to kick his *** right then and right there myself.

Natalie Portman as Padme. Anakin strangles her and she loses the will to live, even though she's carrying not one but two babies? Was that selfish of her? Also, the scene when she gives birth to Luke and leia bothered me. It happened way too fast and here she's naming the babies and dies. Too fake.

Flashback to earlier in the movie, for the award of cheesiest line ever. Padme and Anaking are together. Anakin: "You are so beautiful" Padme: "That's because I'm so in love with you." Anakin: "No, that's because I'm so in love with *you*!"

Eyes roll, the whole scene's a joke.

However, Padme redeems herself with this line at the Senate "This is how democracy dies, with the sound of thundering applause." Now that was memorable.

Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi. Probably the best character along with -shudders- Yoda. He was quite convincing, especially at the end. Now, is it me or the Obi-wan/Anakin scene at the end reminds me of Frodo and Sam at Mordor, especially when Obi-wan cries out "I loved you! You were supposed to be the Chosen One!"?

The younglins, 3 to 10 year old padawans slayed by Anakin...I almost regret they didn't show the actual slaying, just Anakin brandishing his sword. A twisted part of me wanted to see the slaying. That would have certainly made cinema history. But then PG 13 would have turned into R...Order 66 was one of the greatest scenes ever, and I believe this is due in part by the extremely well done score of John Williams at the moment, it was dark and poignant.


I'm not a huge fan of Star Wars but I did grow up with it, overall, one of the best Star Wars ever. I actually cared for the main characters. One big flaw for me: the whole movie had a video game look to it, some of the space battles were way too confusing. You wonder how they could not smash into each other's fighters.

The best part of the movie, I think, was in Palpatine's role. How a republic can turn into the evil Empire on reasons of peace and stability. Hmm....reminds me of our current political situation. Of course, the Third Reich was the original influence, however it is plain to see this was updated to include references to what's happening right now with Iraq.

So, that's about it for now. I thought Star Wars was dead after the crap we were fed with The Phantom Menace, but seeing the third episode seems to put the previous two into perspective, like a slow decent to Hell.
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Old 05-22-2005, 01:44 AM   #59
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Not much that I can add. ROTS really made up for TPM and AOTC (which wasn't half bad).

Personally, I have always felt that the events of TPM could have been summed up in an opening crawl or a flashback scene. Instead Lucas should have started with AOTC (as Ep. I), done more with the Clone Wars and Anakin's slip to the Dark Side (as Ep. II), and ended with the Jedi Purgings & Anakin becoming the "more machine than man" version of Darth Vader.
Lucas spent so long setting up the political events of Ep. III that the story that he needed to tell more ended up needing to be rushed.

I wanted to see more of Bail Organa for crying out loud. Here he plays a vitial role in the survival of Leia, and all we see of him in Ep. I & II is reduced to a few glancing shots of him acting like scenery!

I also wanted an explanation of why the cave on Dagobah is "strong in the dark side, it is".

Those lingering details and questions could have been answered if Lucas had not bothered with Episode I (at least as he made it).

All that aside, however, I have to take what I have been given by the Flannled One and rank my movies in the order that I would view them (thus in the order of my favorites, even it is hard to compair it to the original trilogy)

1. ESB
2. RotS
3. RotJ
4. ANH
5. AotC
6. TMP (it barely makes it on my list)
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Old 05-22-2005, 04:42 AM   #60
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Great reviews, guys, but will you leave Padme alone!

She's heavily pregnant, for crying out loud. A lot of pregnant women are constantly riding an emotional rollercoaster and she not only has that to deal with, but the possibility that she might lose Anakin, or she may even die herself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFedora
Breaking loose of the chains was OK, though Vader shouting "NOOOO!" after realizing Padmés death and Palpatine grinning in irony was too much of a cliché line not to catch the drama. He should've shouted something less pathetic, like: "Why !!!" (falling to his knees, cracking up the floor through raying his dark force anger instead of balling his fists like a moron, (then turning to Palpatine "You promised me she would live!... (shouting): "You... (pointing at Palpatine, maybe even attempting a shortly aborted choke on Palpatine) lied to me!" ... (Palpatine giving the comment how it was his choice to make , Vader looking up to a zoomed-in camera): I will revive/avenge you, Padmé. I will find a way." (then again, I'm not George Lucas).

Dafedora, you're a genius! You should have written the script for that part.
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Old 05-22-2005, 11:34 AM   #61
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Saving Private Padme

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyon
Great reviews, guys, but will you leave Padme alone!

She's heavily pregnant, for crying out loud. A lot of pregnant women are constantly riding an emotional rollercoaster and she not only has that to deal with, but the possibility that she might lose Anakin, or she may even die herself.

Allow me to elaborate...

Just because she's pregnant doesn't mean she's totally worthless... She was still a senator was she not? I'm not expecting her to have more gun-toting adventures (in fact, it would have been cheesy if she had).

I would have liked to see her in action as a concerned and involved government official. Perhaps show her in her office coordinating medical and food aid for planets affected by the war, sending ships to help refugees, something like that. It also would have broken up the monotony of all the scenes she had with Anakin. (They could have scenes someplace besides her Mount Olympus apartment. Because that's where we always see her, it gives the impression that she never leaves.) He comes into her office and she's like, "Anakin I've been so busy dealing with the aftermath of the war... It's good to see you."

Here's my suggestion to revamp her death scene. After she gives birth to the kids, she's heartbroken that Anakin wasn't there, but FINE physically. After a short while, she's convinced that if she confronts Anakin, she can get him to come back. Obi Wan doesn't think it's a good idea, but she says "I'm a member of the Senate, what are they going to do?" Meanwhile, Anakin has been in healing up this whole time (seemed sort of odd that they just packed him into that suit and 5 minutes later he's fine), and is still out of it. Padme hops aboard her ship and returns to Coruscant. The Emperor finds out she's coming back and fears that Padme may be able to turn Vader. So he has her blown out of the sky. Just before Vader's helmet is put into place, his eyes snap open as he realizes that she's dead. His scream of agony and loss is muffled by the helmet snapping into place.

The next time we see Vader, he's storming down the hall to the Emperor. He says, "Padme's dead. What happened?" The Emperor replies, "Remnants of the Separatists killed her. A rebellion is breaking out among those who oppose our new Empire." Vader says, "Rebels?! I will hunt them down and kill them, down to the last woman and child." As Vader heads off to the fleet, the Emperor smiles to himself knowing that he's won.

Last edited by Deadlock : 05-22-2005 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-23-2005, 07:11 PM   #62
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SW III fixed the two great flaws of SW I: Jar Jar, and the virgin birth of Anakin. At the opera house, Palpatine told how some Sith lord (himself?) learned the dark power of midichlorian manipulation. So it suggests Palpatine conceived Anakin where he would grow up fatherless and needy, and at first sent Darth Maul to try to keep him there until he was ready. Later as Vader Anakin learned how to vanish (on the funeral pyre?) and reassemble his midichlorians for a spectral appearance, just as Yoda and Obi Wan learned from Qui Gon in the time between III and IV. I don't know how Qui Gon picked up this skill posthumously, but he could only manage a "noooo!" in SW II during the sand people slaughter.

I'm just a passive fan... am I understanding Lucas's metaphysics properly?

There was also a clever nod to the original sound FX guys: just before the lava falls, lava splashed the guy wires and made that tie-fighter laser noise.
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Old 05-23-2005, 09:03 PM   #63
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I liked Lucas' version just fine.

Jar Jar survived!
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Old 05-24-2005, 01:14 PM   #64
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Deadlock, I like your alterative ending, also.
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Old 05-24-2005, 01:51 PM   #65
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Now that i think of it, I prefer Deadlock's ending. That death scene is kinda too big, if you could die of a heartbreak, the human world population would be very low and there would be less suicides...and I wanted the movie to end on the imperial march.

Was still good though
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Old 05-24-2005, 03:28 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaxer
Now that i think of it, I prefer Deadlock's ending. That death scene is kinda too big, if you could die of a heartbreak, the human world population would be very low and there would be less suicides...

Even thought I REALLY like the idea of the births of the Skywalker twins and Darth Vader happening in two juxtaposed scenes... Each scene requires contradictory suspensions of disbelief.

In Vader's case, we're supposed to believe that medical science in the SW universe can get a person who lost three limbs and is 90-100% covered with 3rd degree burns up and around in a short amount of time (with zero rehab). Okay... I guess I'm willing to believe that. But then we are also asked to believe that in this world of medical marvels that they could do nothing for Padme...

That seems pretty ridiculous.

Last edited by Deadlock : 05-24-2005 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:29 AM   #67
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Overall, I enjoyed ROTS. It was a signficant improvement over Episodes One and Two. But I would have to agree that the ending that Deadlock proposes is much better than the one in the film. As a parent, I found that Padme's unwillingness to carry on living, in light of the birth of her children, lacked credibility. It seems more believable, based on the willpower she demonstrated in the previous two movies and her belief that good still exists in Vader, that she would try to reach him, only to be killed in the attempt by Sidious. The explanation that the rebels were responsible for Padme's death also better establishes Vader as the driven, Rebel hunting force that we encounter in the original trilogy. Although I could accept that self-hatred left Vader with nothing but the Empire to live for, it just didn't seem like a completely compelling motivation for his later behavior. His belief that the rebels had destroyed the love of his life would be.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:46 AM   #68
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It will be interesting to see how the next generation reacts to the movies, now that they'll be the first to see the entire thing in order. I'd be shocked that Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader - and it would hurt a lot more to watch this character who I once saw as a giggling, chubby faced child (spoilers) get all of his limbs chopped off and then burst into flames. They won't have that "I am your father" moment, so watching the films will be an entirely different experience for them.
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Old 05-25-2005, 01:28 PM   #69
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Maybe Lucas will add those things in a few years when he does the Revenge of the Sith Special Edition.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:46 PM   #70
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I still cant believe that padme died from a broken heart.
Ep1:3
Ep2:8
Ep3:10
Ep4:7
Ep5:9
Ep6:9
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Old 05-31-2005, 03:26 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INDYfatigable
Ep1:3
Ep2:8
Ep3:10
Ep4:7
Ep5:9
Ep6:9
ist this supposed to be your rating of the episodes?
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Old 05-31-2005, 03:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INDYfatigable
I still cant believe that padme died from a broken heart.

It's pretty typical, though. Trying to change the future only makes it happen. Man, that's depression for you
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:15 PM   #73
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"Episode 3"

3-3.5 outa 10, being as generous as I possibly can...

Which makes it better than 1&2 put together... But still pretty much cr@p....
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:50 PM   #74
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O fcourse it was my episode rating I was thouroughly dissapointed in Ep1 but loved all the rest. The new one is the best I think. Im still depressed over the fact that padme died tho. She was my fav character.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:56 PM   #75
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how dare you people bash padme! She is my favorite character. Okay so maybe its just because i think shes pretty. But anyway, you have no right to say she has character flaws. and the reamrk about the child abandonment was done in really bad taste.
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