"For the last 1/3rd of the movie, Indy just stands around looking at ***"

Benraianajones

New member
Udvarnoky said:
All of the movies have a generally light tone, but this one embraces it without ever looking back. Indy4 brought the series to a point where holding characters at gunpoint was beyond the joke it usually is in this sort of movie. No one was worried about Marion in the campfire scene, and the quicksand was never going to swallow up anybody.

Yeah, seeing any gun held to anyone in the new one didn't cause much tension. People claim Donovan wasn't very good, but when he held up the gun and waved it around near Indy and his father, I felt some tension. We knew nothing of Donovan, other than he was cold, distant and the fact we knew not much helped to make you think "will he use it?" and of course he does. In the camp I think Marion has a gun to her back or something and you don't tend to notice it.

Also, at the end of TOD we had the 3 trials, the ripsaw one being the most ominous and then of course the false grails. Spalko entered the throne chamber and I felt goosebumps a bit, because it reminded me of Donovan, claiming it was beautiful and all and we knew something would happen. Shame her actual demise was too quick and not graphic enough. I lked the scene where the camera rotated around the room in a jerky fasion though as knowledge flowed in to her, that was quite spooky.
 

Udvarnoky

Well-known member
Benraianajones said:
In the camp I think Marion has a gun to her back or something and you don't tend to notice it.

Actually, it's played for laughs. The gun cocks behind Marion's back and Spalko says, "A simple yes will do." And Indy says with mild frustration, "Oh Marion, you had to go and get yourself kidnapped." The fact that it's an utter joke isn't the problem, because the other movies had plenty of things like that, but Indy4 has no strategy. The other movies provided comic relief because we needed it, Indy4 is all comic relief, all the time.
 

Darth Vile

New member
Udvarnoky said:
Well, to me that's hardly the bottom line if one scene place significantly better than another. Even if the inspiration was along the same lines, the fact that from my perspective one works and the other doesn't is surely the main point? Or is something automatically good for what it was influenced by, rather than for what it actually is?

Of course being similar too or inspired by, doesn’t make it automatically sound… but conversely, stating that it doesn’t work, doesn’t make it inherently bad.

Udvarnoky said:
The problem with this line of thinking is that it seems to render the actual quality irrelevant. Your point seems to be that, if a scene in Indy4 has similar motivations than one in the previous movie, it stands to reason that it will be just as good. And that's simply not the case. It's not even an issue of drop-off interest or repetition. You're refusing to even consider what makes those scenes tick, and why they work on an execution level. You're just saying, "Since they're both scenes where Indy and a sidekick are in a cavern looking for something, they're both equally good!" A generic template is the start of the creation of a scene, not the end of it.
Well it’s an impasse isn’t it? Automatically refuting my position neither proves you correct or me wrong… Also, I never qualified that particular scene in KOTCS by simply stating that it was the same as another… I was simply comparing and contrasting what I believe to be similar cinematic devices/mechanics within the same franchize.

Udvarnoky said:
It's an interesting point about age. Certainly I consider Raiders to be the most successful in this regard, but I'd also put Temple of Doom and Last Crusade way higher than Indy4 on the danger level. It's true that all of the sequels are significantly more comical than Raiders, but the first two of them seemed to play up the threat of life a lot more (for the bad guys and the good guys - recall Indy's three in one kill with the Nazi gun atop the tank). More importantly though, I think Indy4 just in general really lacked situations where we're like, "How is Indy going to get out of this?! (with the fridge scene actually being an exception). The situations in Indy4 that had the potential to be like that sort of resolved themselves before the audience even had time to get involved. I thought, for example, the moment where Indy has Mac's gun pointed at him and he's totally on his own was a great setup for some creative escape that never happened. Having him just drop his gun to the floor and run didn't seem very Indy like (especially since it wasn't played for laughs). The water gears at the end could have been staged as a close call, but it was opted to go for two loose shots of the characters literally walking casually through them with such indifference that I did a double take.
Well I neither agree nor disagree. I think some of the scenes could have been easily enhanced by an edit/additional dialogue or additional plot point… but I can only comment on how I feel and my interpretation of a movie. Personally speaking, I always felt TOD and TLC lacked tension, a sense of peril and drama (which is not to say I don’t enjoy them).

Udvarnoky said:
All of the movies have a generally light tone, but this one embraces it without ever looking back. Indy4 brought the series to a point where holding characters at gunpoint was beyond the joke it usually is in this sort of movie. No one was worried about Marion in the campfire scene, and the quicksand was never going to swallow up anybody. With the exception of the ant scene and the climax, the worst threat that ever faced a character was falling out of a jeep. The movie was unable to achieve a balance between lighthearted fun and actual thrills, and so it ended up being entirely about the former. Which, you know, is fine on its own, but it can certainly disappoint those with the expectation of the movie being more like the others
Again – similar to the above… I think KOTCS was broadly in keeping with the previous 3 movies. I agree that the action in KOTCS lacked the tension/peril of, for example, Casino Royale and Bourne movies. However, I believe the action in TOD and particularly TLC was/is passé. And even circa 20 years ago the action in TLC seemed dated when compared to the dark and brooding Batman (as it was seen at the time).
 

Benraianajones

New member
Udvarnoky said:
Actually, it's played for laughs. The gun cocks behind Marion's back and Spalko says, "A simple yes will do." And Indy says with mild frustration, "Oh Marion, you had to go and get yourself kidnapped." The fact that it's an utter joke isn't the problem, because the other movies had plenty of things like that, but Indy4 has no strategy. The other movies provided comic relief because we needed it, Indy4 is all comic relief, all the time.

Yes I know it is, but the point is, there aren't really any scenes that aren't. Irina points a sword at Mutt's throat - he combs his hair. There just isn't much seriousness, the villans always seem undermimed. And it is true occurance like this occur in the others, but I think a bit too much on KOTCS concerning enemy interactions.

Even if someone thinks TLC has no peril in it, they can't deny the moment Indy walks towards those big stairs that lead to the ripsaw corridor with webs over them do not cause tension and some form of fear to make up for it. In fact I think the fact TLC doesn't have much fear or tension until towards the end of the movie with the 3 trials, the grail selection and fissure makes up for it, and is the real intension. There just wasn't anything like it on KOTCS, and I wish there was. The staircase scene had potential...it was too short.
 
Last edited:

Darth Vile

New member
Benraianajones said:
Even if someone thinks TLC has no peril in it, they can't deny the moment Indy walks towards those big stairs that lead to the ripsaw corridor with webs over them do not cause tension and some form of fear to make up for it. In fact I think the fact TLC doesn't have much fear or tension until towards the end of the movie with the 3 trials, the grail selection and fissure makes up for it, and is the real intension. There just wasn't anything like it on KOTCS, and I wish there was. The staircase scene had potential...it was too short.

I think the scene you describe in TLC is definitely going for the drama angle... but it doesn?t necessarily mean that it achieves it or is any better for it... Similar to KOTCS, I actually think the scenes inside the Grail temple are not the movies strongest moments... but I do see what you are getting at.

However, I think you do KOTCS a slight injustice. KOTCS does attempt something other than all out comedy... and strives for some moments of more a serious nature e.g. Indy's interrogation by the Feds, Indy/Stanforth conversation, Oxley?s cell, Orellan's tomb, Indy looking into the skull and inside Akator. Again, whether it achieves what it strives for is open to debate.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Darth Vile said:
However, I think you do KOTCS a slight injustice. KOTCS does attempt something other than all out comedy... and strives for some moments of more a serious nature e.g. Indy's interrogation by the Feds, Indy/Stanforth conversation, Oxley’s cell, Orellan's tomb, Indy looking into the skull and inside Akator. Again, whether it achieves what it strives for is open to debate.

I often say here my fave scene is the interrogation with the skull. I know KOTCS does more than comedy, but it doesn't really give us anything as dramatic as someone laying there dying with a gun wound to the chest, friends stood around in worry, enemies stood around in charge and watching as an upset Indy has to decide what he "believes" as Donovan says - as he is forced to walk to a corridor with rip saw blades that we have recently been seen cutting off a head. Also Donovan "another volunteer" - we see people being forced in to the deathtrap. There is nothing as cold or callus like this in KOTCS. Despite TLC humour beforehand, we get a serious dramatic and tense set of scenes. I do like KOTCS final chamber scenes..but they aren't as emotional or dramatic or as tense as any of this.

Then of course, evil is overthrown - a shocking death - at the time, as Donovan ages, Elsa falls to her death, the Knight goes down with his temple, bittersweet probably, as the grail has gone, but out of the reach of evil, and Indy and his dad finally connect. It is all very emotionally charged. I just don't feel much emotion occurs at the end of KOTCS towards the end, even though there is a wedding.

KOTCS is sort of like TOD "emotions" wise, the only time in TOD I really feel emotion is when Willie says "let's get out of here" - taking in to consideration the inclusion of all the slave kids there as well shes refering to. But KOTCS I think should have been given more emotion/character development. I mean, revealing Mutt was his son in the pit - a laugh, the wedding as Marion snogs him - a laugh, Indy and Marions reuinion and near kiss- a laugh. I understand why the movie wasn't serious on these notes (though one at least could have been) ...they wanted a fun Indina Jones movie for the summer after all these years and not too deep...but I wish they could have done a bit more with it, because it has/had so much potential to really get in there and flesh out this stuff . Unlike TOD, KOTCS deals with peoples emotions more - in the sense it has the doorway to and should - but it sort of doesn't do it. I'm not denying though the humour KOTCS does give - I do enjoy.

Still, KOTCS, like the other movies in the series is different, yet still true to what Indy is about, and I am looking forward to having a marathon and watching all 4 movies some night, and ejoying the differences along the way. The grit and sandy feeling of Raiders, the cartoony colourful and dark yet humorous TOD, the sentimental and eerie quest for eternal life and the sci-fi tinted comicbook like race to return the crystal skull.
 
Last edited:

oki9Sedo

New member
Its interesting, in Frank Darabont's script, when faced with being offered everything he could have ever wanted by the aliens, he realizes what it is he really wants and chooses Marion instead.

So they had the option of going the route of Last Crusade and had an emotional climax to the story where Indy really has to search inside himself.
 

Darth Vile

New member
oki9Sedo said:
Its interesting, in Frank Darabont's script, when faced with being offered everything he could have ever wanted by the aliens, he realizes what it is he really wants and chooses Marion instead.

So they had the option of going the route of Last Crusade and had an emotional climax to the story where Indy really has to search inside himself.

That's actually the one element of the Darabont script I liked. Not sure why they decided not to play that up in KOTCS? Possibly because they thought it would feel too similar to TLC??? Not sure.
 

caats

New member
it's funny you think it's your doing that's changed his opinion. i still think it's weird for people who don't like something to continuously talk about it. but i guess its just me who gets apathetic if i don't like something
 

No Ticket

New member
Crusade>Raiders said:
You can write the last section of Kingdom as boring, but I have the DVD and I can actually watch it. The last 30 mins is DULL. Akator is suppose to be this lost city with amazing technology and ****, and yet all we see are a couple of cool pyramids and natives that inexplicably pop out of statues and chase Indy/Mutt/superfluous characters for all of 30 seconds.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself, but I still stand by my point. Indiana Jones, the greatest character in cinema history, is reduced to an old travel guide with Mutt and Friends. There's no suspense and wonderment of the last 30 mins like Raiders/Last Crusade. There's no well-paced action thrills of the last 30 mins of Temple.

Its just the most generic looking aliens ever and Indy starring @ the big CGI UFO flies away into space.

Oh, I mean the space between space.

Yes, I have jumped on the Kingdom hate-train. I watched it again last night, and so many flaws jump at @ me :(


You know. I never thought of that but you are right! Akator was supposed to have all this futuristic technology but you really don't get to see any of it. There could have been a "booby trap" scene ala the famous spike room or something utilizing such "futuristic technology" and that would have been ten times more interesting then some random natives chasing Indy and gang for 30 seconds only to be shot minutes later. lol. That really did seem pointless.

Wow. What a missed opportunity to put in a cool trap (screw the stupid staircase) utilizing the alien's futuristic technology they brought to Akator that would bring something new to the IJ series. This almost seems obvious now. I just forgot it was supposed to be a city of futuristic technology because Indy only mentions that once I think.
 

Darth Vile

New member
No Ticket said:
You know. I never thought of that but you are right! Akator was supposed to have all this futuristic technology but you really don't get to see any of it. There could have been a "booby trap" scene ala the famous spike room or something utilizing such "futuristic technology" and that would have been ten times more interesting then some random natives chasing Indy and gang for 30 seconds only to be shot minutes later. lol. That really did seem pointless.

Wow. What a missed opportunity to put in a cool trap (screw the stupid staircase) utilizing the alien's futuristic technology they brought to Akator that would bring something new to the IJ series. This almost seems obvious now. I just forgot it was supposed to be a city of futuristic technology because Indy only mentions that once I think.

I think that's primarily because they wanted to keep the alien thing as subtle as possible until the actual alien/UFO reveal... As already mentioned in another thread, the conquistadors were supposed to be wrapped in alien material (but that was scraped by Spielberg during filming), and there was alien lighting on display in the set design of Akator... which never got into the final cut.
 

nitzsche

New member
The "technology" referred to was paved roads, farming, and aqueducts for irrigation. We did get to see part of a massive water-powered generator at the end.
 

James

Well-known member
Darth Vile said:
I think that's primarily because they wanted to keep the alien thing as subtle as possible until the actual alien/UFO reveal... As already mentioned in another thread, the conquistadors were supposed to be wrapped in alien material (but that was scraped by Spielberg during filming), and there was alien lighting on display in the set design of Akator... which never got into the final cut.

The lights can be glimpsed illuminating the Ugha cave's hallway, although they aren't given any special attention. I think you're right that Spielberg didn't want to telegraph the ship's 'reveal', though. In the book/comic, Indy remarks that the entire place is like one giant power plant.

However, this is one area I would've liked for Spielberg to have elaborated on. The concept art shows Indy and crew walking through a corridor before arriving in the Akator treasure room. But in the film, Indy appears to reach the room almost immediately. The corridor walk could've provided a better sense of the temple's geography, and added to the overall sense of mystery.

nitzsche said:
The "technology" referred to was paved roads, farming, and aqueducts for irrigation. We did get to see part of a massive water-powered generator at the end.

We also see the aqueducts as Indy watches the valley's destruction.
 

Benraianajones

New member
IndyJess said:
That's because he finds the damn Skull so early in the movie.

I don't really mind that, because the concept is, that it is a race to return it before the Soviets do. The real "artifact" here is the chamber in which it belongs to.

I just wish they'd took advantage of the spiral staircase part. On the trailer it seemed so exciting, it even looked as if the room was closing in on them as they ran down the stairs. But in relaity, of course, the scene over within 30 seconds, and it was also one not played for laughs!
 

Dewy9

New member
Benraianajones said:
I don't really mind that, because the concept is, that it is a race to return it before the Soviets do. The real "artifact" here is the chamber in which it belongs to.

I just wish they'd took advantage of the spiral staircase part. On the trailer it seemed so exciting, it even looked as if the room was closing in on them as they ran down the stairs. But in relaity, of course, the scene over within 30 seconds, and it was also one not played for laughs!

Yeah, I like the idea of the staircase, but I don't think it was executed well. The whole fear is that they'll be too slow and fall on the spikes, but when they do fall, they don't fall on the spikes.
 

Benraianajones

New member
Dewy9 said:
Yeah, I like the idea of the staircase, but I don't think it was executed well. The whole fear is that they'll be too slow and fall on the spikes, but when they do fall, they don't fall on the spikes.

Some Ugha warriors should have continued to chase them down the stairs, as they wouldn't have been able to flash the skull at them to scare them. Some of the warriors should have slipped and fallen on to the spikes.
 
Top