I actually liked Mac...

Niteshade007

Niteshade007

New member
jazzycmk said:
Mac isn't a bad character, but he's difficult for fans to embrace.

Mac was a new character, so there's no fond familiarity for the fans. We only got a very limited backstory in the opening scene that indicates that Mac & Indy have had a long friendship dating back to WWII. Then he immediately betrays Indy. Right there, I think most people dismissed him for the remainder of the movie. You don't really feel have any emotional reaction since fans didn't have any previous connection to Mac. You just figure he's another bad guy.
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Maybe, but after that opening, Mac really doesn't have a purpose, except to explain to Indy (and the audience) how greedy he is...over...and over...and over again. It's like "we get it, you're going to die at the end, enough with the heavy foreshadowing!"

That's probably the main reason people didn't find Mac interesting: he didn't have anything interesting to say.
 
J

jazzycmk

New member
Niteshade007 said:
Maybe, but after that opening, Mac really doesn't have a purpose, except to explain to Indy (and the audience) how greedy he is...over...and over...and over again. It's like "we get it, you're going to die at the end, enough with the heavy foreshadowing!"

That's probably the main reason people didn't find Mac interesting: he didn't have anything interesting to say.
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Agreed. There were a couple too many characters to juggle in this adventure (Indy, Mutt, Marion, Mac, Ox, Spalko). Inevitably, some end up being thin and Mac was one of those (and Ox, in my opinion).
 
S

starlings_id

New member
Agent Spalko said:
Why couldn't Sallah be in this film? :confused: :confused: :confused:
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Damn geography... :(

Although I'm sure that was just an excuse. If they had really wanted to, they could have worked around it.

I disagree with some of the arguement that he was less likeable because he was an unestablished character... established characters have to start somewhere, after all. The only issue, for me, is that he just didn't feel NECESSARY beyond a certain point.

Plus, I kind of feel like there should be a limit to the number of characters Indy is hauling around with him at a time. Three's about it for me... anything more, and you just can't give any one character quite enough time, which I think is one of the biggest flaws of this movie.

EDIT: jazzycmk kind of beat me to that last part...

Samantha
 
Uki

Uki

Member
I liked Mac. I think he fit well, and drove the idea that there were those who would sell out their friends, their country to the Commies. You have to remember, this is Indiana Jones, pure popcorn fun action inspired by the matinee serials and the B-fare flicks from yesteryear. Those old films abound with barely developed characters, because they fit an archetype. They don't need to be, as the action and story drives the plot; these are not character pieces. Also, Indy 4 is brand spanking new, and we have had years to read into every performers nuances and subtleties from the prior three adventures. In time, I'm sure these boards will be filled with the ponderings of Mac's layered portrayal and his inner turmoil. Trust me.:)
 
Attila the Professor

Attila the Professor

Moderator
Staff member
Niteshade007 said:
That's probably the main reason people didn't find Mac interesting: he didn't have anything interesting to say.
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But he said it so interestingly - the lines as they were written was some of the best stuff Koepp gave us and Winstone's performance was spot-on, finding what was worth having fun with and doing so ("just like Berlin" to Spalko being a perfect example).
 
Niteshade007

Niteshade007

New member
Attila the Professor said:
But he said it so interestingly - the lines as they were written was some of the best stuff Koepp gave us and Winstone's performance was spot-on, finding what was worth having fun with and doing so ("just like Berlin" to Spalko being a perfect example).
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I'm not saying his performance was lousy. In fact, it was one of the better ones in the film (if not the best), but his lines just seemed to go in circles. It was just the same stuff over and over, making him less and less interesting. I thought he was a dud of a character, and definitely could have been written better. But, as so many others have said, all the characters could have been written better.
 
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Deckard

New member
Like I said, its a wierd cycle for me. I begin the movie knowing full well by the end, I will hate Mac but I still like his character right up until about the Jungle Chase, then he just becomes a burden.

After seeing it about 7 times now, I will also say, I really have a feeling Ox was originally written to be Henry Sr. but they changed it when Connery said no. I dunno, I can't really explain it but its my opinion. Does anyone know if John Hurt was already signed on before Connery rejected the script?
 
Niteshade007

Niteshade007

New member
I believe Connery was supposed to be the Dean character, but I could be wrong. I remember Lucas saying something about him "not going along for the adventure" and in Darabont's script, apparently he is only in the beginning and end (haven't read it myself, though).
 
NLogan

NLogan

Member
I personally didn't like Mac who was supposed to be Indy's buddy who flip flops loyalty ever half hour. It didn't seem like there was enough depth to him to make his betrayals or his loss dramatic enough. Maybe if the film started with a prologue showing part of a mission with Indy, building his relationship a little could have made the character stronger.
 
No Ticket

No Ticket

New member
I liked him up until the moment where he dies "heroic" and we're supposed to feel sorry for him or something after he double-crossed Indy. At this point the character made little sense to me and left me wondering about him. His motives aren't very clear. His part isn't prominent enough to make the double-crossing thing pertinent.

He had lots of potential that I felt went to waste but it wasn't Winstone's fault. I think he did a good job and the character, for what we saw of him, was pretty cool. Just not fleshed out well enough.
 
Agent Z

Agent Z

Active member
Deckard said:
...then the way he dies is shown and its completely stupid and Im like...yea.... I mean he could have been in the air being pulled a little longer, hes just laying on the floor, like "I'll be ok." It's really awful more so then the monkeys or nuke, it looks like a shot form an amatuer middle school video someone rushed for their AV class. At no time do you get the gist hes really being sucked into a portal about to die, it looks more like he had a big dinner and is just having trouble getting off the floor..
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I just can't fathom them shooting that scene and thinking that it would make any lick of sense to the audience. And yet....

The sad thing is, it's an easy fix. Just wait until Mac is in the air being pulled away...then have him deliver the line.
 
Mothy

Mothy

Guest
Indy should have shot a cap between his eyes at the nearest oppurtunity for his betrayal in the first scene of the film alone. Indy looks like a fool to keep allowing him to re-enter the circle, only to be betrayed each time. I'm not a fan of Mac or Indy's behaviour regarding Mac.
 
Niteshade007

Niteshade007

New member
Mothy said:
Indy should have shot a cap between his eyes at the nearest oppurtunity for his betrayal in the first scene of the film alone. Indy looks like a fool to keep allowing him to re-enter the circle, only to be betrayed each time. I'm not a fan of Mac or Indy's behaviour regarding Mac.
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But that's what Indy does. He's a helpful guy. To me, Mac's death seemed like a rehash of Elsa's, only they couldn't have him dying because of his greed like Elsa did, so they gave him, as No Ticket put it, a "heroic" death.
 
Katarn07

Katarn07

New member
He was not only underdeveloped, he was too much like Benny from the Mummy. The way he died was nearly the same. Both Indy and Rick try to save the guy who was once their friend but had stabbed them in the back for profit. Good idea, lousy exection.

This is no fault to Ray Winstone. He's a funny guy and worked with what was given to him. With some polish, I think he and Spalko would have made more memorable characters.
 
H

Henry_Jones_Jr

New member
I personally felt he had no relevance to the story whatsoever. What he did add to the plot could have been easily done without him. Imagine he wasn't in the film at all.

Indy gets pulled out the trunk alone, we have some blah blah with the Russians and when it gets to Indy getting a gun we just have the Commies raise their guns anyway as Indy realises he is out numbered (or even a russian approach him from behind that he didn't spot), then the escape and the chase scene and so on.

We just avoid showing Mac puff a cigar.

Cut the tent nonsence out.

Instead of having Mac leave tracking devices, just show the Russians find the remains of the car at the bottom of the river then notice the skull in the waterfall.

Avoid the death scene.

This then leaves a lot of time for more development with the other characters. I felt we needed to see more Marion, or at least have one, maybe more, scenes between her and Indy to reestablish their relationship. It's like they just fell in love again because it said so in the script, the chemistry from Raider's wasn't there.
 
L

lancetoris

New member
Snakes said:
I liked Mac too, all the way through the movie. I don't know why so many people hate him. I don't think he was any less developed or important a character than any other supporting role in the films.
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You're right, he wasn't less developed or important....that's because they were ALL EQUALLY less developed and un-important. :(
 
S

SterankoII

New member
I do like him but agree that's underdeveloped and his death stunk. I like the backstory of him working with Indy during WWII and that Indy is able to just punch him without reprisal! Reading Darabont's script I much prefer him to "Yuri"! I couldn't have taken all the cheerful crap with a Russian accent.
 
nezobiwan

nezobiwan

New member
Here's my soliloquoy on this subject. Previously stated in another thread:

Mac pretty much was the only character I absolutely loathed. And I don't mean loathed in the way we're supposed to loath him. I mean to say he's a terribly constructed character. He's so cardboard cutout, stereotypic. He reminded me of a poor excuse for Benny from The Mummy... except Benny was actually funny and his relationship to O'Connell made sense.

And Mac's relationship with Indy is... for lack of a better descriptor... stupid. I've seen the movie twice and I wanted to yell in Indy's face at the end: "The dude screwed you over twice; leave his @ss to die!"

I mean seriously... the love of his life and newfound son are in danger and he's worrying about some jerk. There just wasn't enough "history" between them to make Indy's sympathetic feelings for him believeable... now if it was someone established, like Sallah or maybe even a grown up Short Round, I could totally, unquestionably understand Indy's hesitation in letting that betrayer die.

starlings_id said:
He had many entertaining moments, but in the end he felt to me like a weak version of the Benny character from "The Mummy".
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Next time you're going to share my brain, could you kindly ask permission first? ;)
 
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