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Old 05-17-2008, 05:15 PM   #51
Agent Spalko
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Originally Posted by Skipper
How noble that you'll continue to defend Lucas-hating posters when you yourself are a Lucas-hating poster! (But in all seriousness, I do share your misgivings about Lucas.)

For the record, I don't expect Indy 4 to be a great film. I expect it to be pretty much like the first 3, and since I love Indy, I'll love the movie.

I think critics of the movie are holding it up to an impossible standard. If TOD came out today, it would get ROASTED by the critics. I watched it the other day, and objectively, it's just a ridiculous movie. Pretty much all of Willie's lines are cringe-inducing (and it's not Kate Capshaw's fault).

I agree, TOD is my least favorite but I still don't hate it. KOTCS may disappoint on many levels and may end up being the worst of them all but I still won't hate it. Now that I know what will disappoint me I can just watch the film for what it is. Better to go in knowing what to expect. I read the script to Episode I 2 months before it came out and thought it was awful but I put my faith in Lucas because I knew writing wasn't his strength and that somehow he would work his magic. Now I know better.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:19 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Agent Spalko
I agree, TOD is my least favorite but I still don't hate it. KOTCS may disappoint on many levels and may end up being the worst of them all but I still won't hate it. Now that I know what will disappoint me I can just watch the film for what it is. Better to go in knowing what to expect. I read the script to Episode I 2 months before it came out and thought it was awful but I put my faith in Lucas because I knew writing wasn't his strength and that somehow he would work his magic. Now I know better.
I don't blame you for being disillusioned with Lucas. He really just needed someone to sit him down and say, "No, you are not going to cast an 8-year-old as Darth Vader, and Jar-Jar Binks will never exist outside your imagination." Hopefully Spielberg has provided the necessary restraint for this film. I hope you'll enjoy it, and I'm sorry if I was too hard on you.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:54 PM   #53
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Lucas doesn't need to sit down and be restrained by anyone (a thousand moviemakers would take his word in a second). The prequels were 3 of the biggest movies of all time and such is their reach that you still see kids buying the games or pretending to be Jedi 3 years after ROTS. You can take the weakest scenes from any of the prequels (IMHO) and they are still better than the best scenes in Hook or The Lost World (to name but two). Disillusionment is a state of mind not necessarily borne out of the reality...
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:00 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper
I don't blame you for being disillusioned with Lucas. He really just needed someone to sit him down and say, "No, you are not going to cast an 8-year-old as Darth Vader, and Jar-Jar Binks will never exist outside your imagination." Hopefully Spielberg has provided the necessary restraint for this film. I hope you'll enjoy it, and I'm sorry if I was too hard on you.

Why did he need someone to sit him down and correct HIS VISION? He allowed us to see the movies as HE SAW them! it is his right to do so and None of our D@mn business! that's the attitude that gets me...You take it sooo personal when in reality, You don't matter! I really hate to break it to a lot of you SW haters...They were a success!! I would rather him stay true to HIS vision and not what the Fanbabies want...The fans that write their own little stories ( which suck ) and then get mad when Lucas does not use them....Do ANY of you realize that this is what yo uare doing? That you think your OPINION matters?

That's what I want to know...How can "adults" be so blind to reality? Or litterally ignorant to their role? You are TICKER PURCHASERS, You do NOT have any other obligation than to see the film BEFORE you cast judgement...It is your priviledge then to be a fan or not..It's the reasons behind those thoughts which are so twisted.

for every old fan that HATED Jar-Jar, there were HUNDREDS of kids that liked him...guess what, Those kids are now keeping SW alive! No different when Adults didn't like or respect the original trilogy that everyone defends soooo much.

Hate to break itto you, but WE WERE ALL younger then and much less jaded...Were those movies released now, you would probably hate them too.

THAT is the reality!
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #55
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Agreed tnswman. You expanded on my previous post.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:06 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by tnswman
Why did he need someone to sit him down and correct HIS VISION? He allowed us to see the movies as HE SAW them! it is his right to do so and None of our D@mn business! that's the attitude that gets me...You take it sooo personal when in reality, You don't matter!
Sure, Lucas had the right to make whatever movie he wanted, but by your logic, every single movie ever made is immune from criticism because the filmmaker has the right to do whatever he wants.

I see I'm simultaneously being criticized for being a Lucas-hater and a knee-jerk Lucas defender. The truth is somewhere in between. I love Indy, and I'm grateful to Lucas for inventing him. I love the original Star Wars and I like the prequels, too, but I still think Jar-Jar sucks and that Anakin as an 8-year-old was ridiculous. Oh, and I also hated the CGI in the prequels. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:08 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skipper
Sure, Lucas had the right to make whatever movie he wanted, but by your logic, every single movie ever made is immune from criticism because the filmmaker has the right to do whatever he wants.

I see I'm simultaneously being criticized for being a Lucas-hater and a Lucas-lover. The truth is somewhere in between. I love Indy, and I'm grateful to Lucas for inventing him. I love the original Star Wars and I like the prequels, too, but I still think Jar-Jar sucks and that Anakin as an 8-year-old was ridiculous. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Crticism is fine, and is awesome, and is a good means of expression but it's when people cry that Lucas is ''evil'', that he is ''insane'' and that he ''raped my childhood'' or that somehow the prequels ruin the originals and make the originals crap that it borders on histrionic behavior and ridiculousness.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:13 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Crticism is fine, and is awesome, and is a good means of expression but it's when people cry that Lucas is ''evil'', that he is ''insane'' and that he ''raped my childhood'' or that somehow the prequels ruin the originals and make the originals crap that it borders on histrionic behavior and ridiculousness.
I agree with that. I'm glad Lucas made the prequels, because I'm a Star Wars fan. And I think it's stupid when people think that a sequel (or prequel) someone ruins the original. But that doesn't mean I'm a fan of every decision Lucas makes.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skipper
I agree with that. I'm glad Lucas made the prequels, because I'm a Star Wars fan. And I think it's stupid when people think that a sequel (or prequel) someone ruins the original. But that doesn't mean I'm a fan of every decision Lucas makes.

Of course not. Not everything Lucas does is good, but not evertyhing he does is bad or an evil act. I don't mind critics, but I hate histrionic psychos.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:35 PM   #60
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Thoughts

Keep in mind that most movies are made by committee today and it shows. Every exec is looking to make big bucks and discards story and vision in favor of what opinion polls reflect. Movie are recycled, sequels are greenlit, original stories are few and far between.

Lucas and Spielberg are two of the few people who have full autonomy to do what they wish and that's what they do. If they listened to the divergent opinions of this forum alone nothing would get made and if it did half of you would still be upset.

The world wanted another IJ movie as did 95% of those on this board but it didn't get made till Ford, Spielberg, and Lucas came up with a story they were all willing to tell. They didn't do it for the money, they did to tell a story and to please the fans. Not all fans will be pleased but they will all go to see it. If they don't see it they shouldn't complain or criticize. It's like *****ing out your elected officials when you chose not to vote.

At any rate, the movie will be better than most of the want-to-bees and knock-offs that try to emulate IJ but never come close.
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:06 PM   #61
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personity I think the only movie that was ever a really decent rip off from indiana jones was romancing the stone.

Jacob
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Old 05-17-2008, 07:08 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by indyfan105
personity I think the only movie that was ever a really decent rip off from indiana jones was romancing the stone.

Jacob
Romancing the Stone was OK, but nowhere near Indy's league. I think "The Mummy" was better, but again not anywhere close to as good as Indy.
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:43 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper
Sure, Lucas had the right to make whatever movie he wanted, but by your logic, every single movie ever made is immune from criticism because the filmmaker has the right to do whatever he wants.

I see I'm simultaneously being criticized for being a Lucas-hater and a knee-jerk Lucas defender. The truth is somewhere in between. I love Indy, and I'm grateful to Lucas for inventing him. I love the original Star Wars and I like the prequels, too, but I still think Jar-Jar sucks and that Anakin as an 8-year-old was ridiculous. Oh, and I also hated the CGI in the prequels. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

The point that needs to be taken from this is WHAT GOOD does criticizim do? NOTHING!! NOBODY takes a critic seriously..Look at AICN..Those folks are a VERY small group of NOBODY'S!! They give out Love Jobs to which ever theater plays to the few guys there that run the show.. The rest of the folks are the same NASTY grown men who BRAG about being losers and having no lives.

The movie theaters KNOW that groups of fans ( such as comic book fans ) are WORTH going after because they do not just BITC*, No, If they hate something, they will NOT spend their money on it..Nothing needs to be said, NOT ONE comic book movie fan will listen to what a critic says and take it for face value..They make up their own mind.

the same here... People could CARE less what Lucas did with SW..THIS IS INDY!!! People KNOW what to expect..and that is NOT a re-make of ANY of the previous films..which is what people like Spalko wanted both with SW and INDY!!

The common movie goers understand the reality of the situation and are THANKFUL that we are seeing something NEW that continues what Lucas and Co. started in 1981.

Now that the UFO has been debunked and people see that the "Aliens" are done in the SAME FLAVOR as the Ark spirits, The Alien cry babies are shut up. So, After the 22nd...I just really want to see what people Fuss about and how it compares to the outlandish things that have happened in the other Indy Movies.

If you go into ANY Indy movie expecting reality..That is your fault!
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:02 PM   #64
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They get married!? Why the **** did I click this thread!?!

Oh well, but this was rumored a while back so I guess it really doesn't matter
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:20 PM   #65
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That's really cool. I didn't even know amazon was shipping the books or comics yet. I'm off to amazon.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by tnswman
Why did he need someone to sit him down and correct HIS VISION?

Because Lucas, like many creatives, needs someone to focus and cultivate his great imagination. Before he was a giant, people weren't afraid to tell him "no George, that idea isn't working", people like his wife and Gary Kurtz. Because of that temperament and fine tuning, we were given some of the greatest stories of all time... but now he's a juggernaut and no one will say no to him, no one will tell him something can be done better. He fired a guy from ILM because he spoke up while working on TPM. He doesn't have anyone left to fine tune his ideas and his imagination, to sculpt it and raise it to the next level. All his has now are yes men who tell him he is great and magical and collect their fat paychecks. Personally, I blame Rick McCullam for George's creative state. If ever there was a "blow sunshine up your ass" kind of guy... it's him.

I still think Lucas has a great imagination, and lots of really good ideas, , but like everyone, he's got bad ideas too... no one is perfect. Even the prequels after some re-editing, some "focusing" of good ideas (re: Phantom Edited versions) were solid films IMO and exponentially more enjoyable. If he had said Jedi have to defecate into their hands and manually load their feces into their lightsabers to provide them power, would everyone still be declaring it brilliant and his vision that should not be questioned?

And excuse me, but he didn't "allow" anyone anything... we paid him for a product, as a consumer we have the right to demand a quality product. That's how business works. If he made his movie and let everyone in the world see it for free, to share his art for the better of society... then sure, we don't have much say... but this is the real world, and it's business. He's made a half a billion dollars from consumers, those consumers have the right to demand a quality product. And it's bad business to deuce on your consumer base after you've taken their money (re: all his I don't care about the fans talk)

The alien angle is very disappointing to me, I love Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, X-Files the list goes on and on... I'm not adverse to aliens in my fiction, in fact I rather enjoy them, but aliens don't feel right in Indiana Jones to me. I'll see the film eventually, and hopefully I'll get enjoyment out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnswman
The common movie goers understand the reality of the situation and are THANKFUL that we are seeing something NEW that continues what Lucas and Co. started in 1981.

Really, I think the "common movie goer" doesn't give a rats ass about Indiana Jones IV. They care about Iron Man and Batman. It's been 20 years since the last Indiana Jones... the people fueling any kind of excitement and hype for this film... are the Indiana Jones fans... not the "common movie goer"
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:55 AM   #67
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DrBeezer your "logic" is very flawed.

You assume that Lucas does not have people who work for him who disagree with him only because you don't like the end result. Through out the Prequels he took advice from his director friends like Coppola and Spielberg, etc. Giving suggestions on Editing, Spielberg even directed sequences in Revenge of the Sith.

You are certainly allowed to be disappointed in a product you paid for. But don't assume you represent everyone. Lucas's films have a HUGE audience. So lets assume that 50% of people hate his new movies....That still means that a s#1T load of people still like what he is doing. Thats the tricky thing of creating something that explodes instantly with popularity. Being that popular means that you somehow attracted a diverse group of people. That is what Lucas did with the first Star Wars film. But simple math dictates that you are going to lose some of the audience when you continue. Because the audience
was so varied in the frst place.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:21 AM   #68
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Haven't read this thread. Don't want to read this thread. All I know is that if Indy gets married I shall lose a 1000 bet. I'm keeping optimistic about my potential windfall.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:10 AM   #69
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Haven't read this thread. Don't want to read this thread. All I know is that if Indy gets married I shall lose a 1000 bet. I'm keeping optimistic about my potential windfall.

Note to self: Do not rely on herr gruber for financial advice.
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:28 AM   #70
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Odd, like Michael Crichton's "Sphere."

The end is like Sphere and The Mummy Returns put together. Couldn't George Lucas come up with something more original?
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:43 AM   #71
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Goonie,

Both The Mummy and The Mummy Returns are blatant rip-offs (or at least riffs) of Indiana Jones. I think the worst thing you could say about Lucas, in this respect, is that he's stealing his own idea back... There is only so many ways you can mix the same ingredients, and I'd doubt very much that Lucas would look to those contemporary Mummy movies for inspiration/ideas, as they are profoundly inferior (he may as well just watch his own three Indy flicks).
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:04 AM   #72
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Lucas having an original Idea, is as unlikely as Bin-laden converting to Christianity.
But to be fair hardly anything is new or original, just re-interpreted, for a new audience. I actually think the ending could be quite cool.
I dont see Lucas's hand in it that much.
He may have 'suggested' the 'McMuffin', but then there was the saucer men piece, then Darrabonts take, then Koepps final draft, then Guy Dyass the production designer, Spielbergs take.....etc, etc.
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:33 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herr gruber
Haven't read this thread. Don't want to read this thread. All I know is that if Indy gets married I shall lose a 1000 bet. I'm keeping optimistic about my potential windfall.
Poor, poor Gruber...
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBeezer
Because Lucas, like many creatives, needs someone to focus and cultivate his great imagination. Before he was a giant, people weren't afraid to tell him "no George, that idea isn't working", people like his wife and Gary Kurtz. Because of that temperament and fine tuning, we were given some of the greatest stories of all time... but now he's a juggernaut and no one will say no to him, no one will tell him something can be done better. He fired a guy from ILM because he spoke up while working on TPM. He doesn't have anyone left to fine tune his ideas and his imagination, to sculpt it and raise it to the next level. All his has now are yes men who tell him he is great and magical and collect their fat paychecks. Personally, I blame Rick McCullam for George's creative state. If ever there was a "blow sunshine up your ass" kind of guy... it's him.

I still think Lucas has a great imagination, and lots of really good ideas, , but like everyone, he's got bad ideas too... no one is perfect. Even the prequels after some re-editing, some "focusing" of good ideas (re: Phantom Edited versions) were solid films IMO and exponentially more enjoyable. If he had said Jedi have to defecate into their hands and manually load their feces into their lightsabers to provide them power, would everyone still be declaring it brilliant and his vision that should not be questioned?

And excuse me, but he didn't "allow" anyone anything... we paid him for a product, as a consumer we have the right to demand a quality product. That's how business works. If he made his movie and let everyone in the world see it for free, to share his art for the better of society... then sure, we don't have much say... but this is the real world, and it's business. He's made a half a billion dollars from consumers, those consumers have the right to demand a quality product. And it's bad business to deuce on your consumer base after you've taken their money (re: all his I don't care about the fans talk)

The alien angle is very disappointing to me, I love Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, X-Files the list goes on and on... I'm not adverse to aliens in my fiction, in fact I rather enjoy them, but aliens don't feel right in Indiana Jones to me. I'll see the film eventually, and hopefully I'll get enjoyment out of it.



Really, I think the "common movie goer" doesn't give a rats ass about Indiana Jones IV. They care about Iron Man and Batman. It's been 20 years since the last Indiana Jones... the people fueling any kind of excitement and hype for this film... are the Indiana Jones fans... not the "common movie goer"


Your ignorance to the whole subject is amazing....PLEASE educate yourself about the Incan life..They used to Press the heads of babies to make their SKULLS look JUST like the "alien" in KOTCS.. Nobody is saying it is an ALIEN outright... It's up to you to decide for yourself. Look on Youtube for the Lost civilization of the Incas to see the stuff in KOTCS touched on!
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:54 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBeezer
Because Lucas, like many creatives, needs someone to focus and cultivate his great imagination. Before he was a giant, people weren't afraid to tell him "no George, that idea isn't working", people like his wife and Gary Kurtz. Because of that temperament and fine tuning, we were given some of the greatest stories of all time... but now he's a juggernaut and no one will say no to him, no one will tell him something can be done better. He fired a guy from ILM because he spoke up while working on TPM. He doesn't have anyone left to fine tune his ideas and his imagination, to sculpt it and raise it to the next level. All his has now are yes men who tell him he is great and magical and collect their fat paychecks. Personally, I blame Rick McCullam for George's creative state. If ever there was a "blow sunshine up your ass" kind of guy... it's him.

I still think Lucas has a great imagination, and lots of really good ideas, , but like everyone, he's got bad ideas too... no one is perfect. Even the prequels after some re-editing, some "focusing" of good ideas (re: Phantom Edited versions) were solid films IMO and exponentially more enjoyable. If he had said Jedi have to defecate into their hands and manually load their feces into their lightsabers to provide them power, would everyone still be declaring it brilliant and his vision that should not be questioned?

And excuse me, but he didn't "allow" anyone anything... we paid him for a product, as a consumer we have the right to demand a quality product. That's how business works. If he made his movie and let everyone in the world see it for free, to share his art for the better of society... then sure, we don't have much say... but this is the real world, and it's business. He's made a half a billion dollars from consumers, those consumers have the right to demand a quality product. And it's bad business to deuce on your consumer base after you've taken their money (re: all his I don't care about the fans talk)

The alien angle is very disappointing to me, I love Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, X-Files the list goes on and on... I'm not adverse to aliens in my fiction, in fact I rather enjoy them, but aliens don't feel right in Indiana Jones to me. I'll see the film eventually, and hopefully I'll get enjoyment out of it.



Really, I think the "common movie goer" doesn't give a rats ass about Indiana Jones IV. They care about Iron Man and Batman. It's been 20 years since the last Indiana Jones... the people fueling any kind of excitement and hype for this film... are the Indiana Jones fans... not the "common movie goer"


Now, How in the WORLD do you get that "average" fans are not excited over Indy? You do realize that EVERY VHS, DVD, TV release of the movies has been a HUGE success FOR YEARS!!

I can't wait until you are just plain WRONG! You should see that in about 2 weeks.

If you hink that Lucas made the SW films for the 30+ crowds, your are FULL of it!! SW is and ALWAYS has been a kid to teen movie! It is NOT lucas's fault that grown men make it the center of their lives and expect him to make the universe tilt how they desire it to....HE HAD TO STAY TRUE TO HIS STORY!! Nobody else matters!! He would have made all 3 SW movies regardless of how Menace did...Thankfully, Menace was a HUGE success. It's not his fault that you GREW up in way's you did not even realize and could not feel the same amazement at the movies as you once did. However, There were MILLIONS of kids who DID get that amazement...They are the SW consumers now..People are age are just Geeks with nothing better to do.

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