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Old 10-17-2007, 03:27 AM   #51
Finn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Violet Indy
There was a thread about this in the archives here... Not bothered to link it now.
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345

It's coincidentally fittingly named, if you ask me.
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Old 10-17-2007, 04:59 AM   #52
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I doubt that it was Abner. Abner probably would have been the same as Indy "It belongs in a museum!" were as that guy was doing it for money.
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?t=8345

It's coincidentally fittingly named, if you ask me.

Lol. I thought the name of this thread was familiar.
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Old 10-17-2007, 02:50 PM   #54
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Uhm... I really don't know... all I can say is that I remember quite clearly one thing that happens when Indy and his friend are hidden on the top of the cavern, spying the four treasure hunters. The young blonde guy who works for Fedora finds the Cross of Coronado and he brings it to him, screaming "I've found something Kurt (?) look what I've found!!" etc...

I've never understood what name exactly he says, but I remember something like "Kurt", or "Karth" maybe... does any other of you remember this thing?
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Old 10-17-2007, 03:50 PM   #55
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The name he calls out is "Garth". And it's most likely directed to Fedora.

It still doesn't mean however that it wouldn't possibly be Abner. Perhaps he was sort of working undercover, pretending to be one of Panama Hat's men and ready to let the Cross slide out of his hands because he had a bigger prize in his sights? It's a little far-fetched, I know, but would perfectly fit the mystery Fedora is. He appears to be nothing more than a mercenary, but seems to act very honorably towards Indy at the same time.

There's not much in the moral angle either. After all, Indy pulled off a pretty similar stunt when he was willing to let Nurhachi go for the diamond in ToD.

NOTE: There's no canonical evidence whatsoever to back up this little plotline I just came up with. Simply playing around with the idea.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:15 PM   #56
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The idea of it being Ravenwood would have been cool, had they fully intended it to be that way and thus developed the character to be indeed just that. However, I like it being some random explorer that obviously influenced Indiana.

However, the trick of it being an unknown explorer rather than Indy never worked on me. Even at the age of five in theaters, I knew Phoenix was Indiana. It's weird.

That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:45 AM   #57
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Funny you mention that. At the time, I remember knowing River Phoenix was an actor who would be appearing as Indiana Jones in the new film. But I hadn't seen him before and had no idea what he looked like. So I thought it was Indiana in the cave until Fedora revealed his face. And I remember in the car afterwards on the way home saying, "Where was River Phoenix?" and my parents laughing and saying, "He played Indy in the whole opening."

Duh! LOL!!!!
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:45 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueseattle
That was intentional, right? To make us believe that was Indiana, until he pulls his hat up and the other boyscout says, "Indiana."
Yes, it was intentional. That's also why don't tell you the year until then. If they told us the year, we would know that that man is too old to be Indy at that time, and thus we would expect a young Indy. That's also the reason why we don't see his face.
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Old 12-09-2007, 07:55 PM   #59
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Seems like too much of a stretch that he would be his mentor later on. I always liked the idea that this chance encounter with a stranger who was a "bad guy" made Indy kind of want to be like him.

Still, was a cool idea, although I seriously doubt it's supposed to be Abner in LC.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:17 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundshort
Hmm, I like this, maybe a very dark, almost religous zealot Ravenwood, that has lost all sense of relaity, since he heard about the ark being discoverd etc. . .
Now, all we have to do is figure out how Jar-Jar is involved, George?

I know I'm entering into this reeaally late, but I couldn't resist: that's funny, roundshort. And I just want you guys to know I have a great amount of respect for you delving into the story like this... it's really impressive. And I'm sure Marion would really appreciate your caring enough about her dad to do a 5-page thread on his history. I like all your theories, but let me throw mine out there just for kicks:

I like the idea of "Fedora" being Abner; I hadn't thought of that before (although I had heard the script bit about Fedora's real name being Abner Ravenwood). I don't remember who it was (it may have been Paden), but one of you guys volunteered a theory that it was Abner and he recognized Indy years later by the hat. I really like that, although I don't know if I believe it. I don't think Abner was a real fanatic, although I believe his "obsession" with Tanis and the Ark was similar to Henry Jones Sr.'s Grail obsession. I think he taught Indy part of his "dark side of archaeology" thing, but I also think part of it was just Indy's inate proclivity for adventure.
I think the "falling-out" had more to do with Marion than archaeology, actually...

Someone once asked me what happened between Marion and Indy, and I pretty much said that they probably quarrelled about something stupid and ended up bitter and separate. But now, I don't know. I think they may have quarrelled, but it wasn't over something stupid. Something very big happened between them, and I don't know what it was. Lucas may not even know. But something happened; this is apparent just by their dialogue in the Raven Bar scene:

I learned to hate you in the last ten years!
I never meant to hurt you.
I was a child; I was in love. It was wrong and you knew it!
You knew what you were doing.
Now I do!


And in the Cairo marketplace, more proof of the fact that Marion was the reason for the "falling out":

Dad had you figured out a long time ago. He said you were a bum.
Oh, he's bein' generous.
The most gifted bum he ever trained. He loved you like a son, you know. Took a hell of a lot for you to alienate him.
Not much, just you.

I like the idea of reclaiming the Ark... you know, I watched the trailer today for Indy 4 and there was a scene in a warehouse...

Yeah, well. That's my two cent's worth. Keep up the awesome thread, guys... Marion would be proud!
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:33 AM   #61
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If you start connecting stuff like Fedora actually being Abner in LC... you start going down the ridiculous route of connecting everyone to everything like what the prequels did for Star Wars.

Darth Vader built C-3PO?!?! Hahaha.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:41 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Ticket
If you start connecting stuff like Fedora actually being Abner in LC... you start going down the ridiculous route of connecting everyone to everything like what the prequels did for Star Wars.

Darth Vader built C-3PO?!?! Hahaha.
That brings back memories of Darth Vader rolling around on the ground in a flowery meadow.
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Old 02-16-2008, 01:18 PM   #63
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I prefer to suspect Dr. Fantasy (of the magic caboose) is Willie's magician grandfather, but then things get a little too Dickensian. (Though there's no such thing when it comes to the YIJC.)
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Old 02-16-2008, 03:46 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moedred
I prefer to suspect Dr. Fantasy (of the magic caboose) is Willie's magician grandfather, but then things get a little too Dickensian. (Though there's no such thing when it comes to the YIJC.)
Well played, sir.
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:47 AM   #65
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Abner Ravenwood as Fedora?

I received issue #4 of the Indiana Jones magazine yesterday, and on page 42, under the heading "The Man in the Hat", it stated that an early draft of the Last Crusade script had the character "Fedora" as being Abner Ravenwood, Marion's father. That's the first I have ever heard of that concept. Very intriguing, though I wonder how that would play out as Abner was subsequently Indy's Archaeology professor at the University of Chicago. Anyone else heard of this before?
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:58 PM   #66
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Yep. Here's one of the threads talking about it:
Abner Ravenwood in The Last Crusade
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:02 PM   #67
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I always thought he was Abner up until a couple of years ago. I really can't remember where I got that idea, it was just something I always took as fact for years until I discovered there is in fact no basis for it.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:14 PM   #68
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I choose to believe it is Abner, he's kind of the Ben Kenobi figure to Indy and was a heavy influence on him.

He's so different from his father that Abner becomes his father figure and where Indy learns all his tricks. Stuff like the gear and so forth could have come from Abner too. It's a cool little story element if you think about it.

It's like Mutt, i thought Mutt should have been more like Connery, leaving Indy to be the outcast lol.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:35 PM   #69
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In another Spielberg movie from the 80s "Young Sherlock Holmes", Holmes get his hat from his old mentor Professor Waxflatter. Maybe Spielberg remembered that idea for the opening of LC, so it's possible that Fedora was Abner.
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Old 11-04-2008, 05:58 PM   #70
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One of the henchmen, Roscoe (the red-headed kid) calls him Garth so it's not Abner. Check out the subtitles
and click to this good, little thread below to find out where Indy does meet "Fedora" again!

Anybody wish Indy would have met "Fedora" again?
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:23 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlock
As another student of all things Ravenwood, I'm also familiar with the Fedora/Ravenwood connection. Unfortunately, I don't know of any additional details revealed about Ravenwood by earlier drafts. Frankly, I'm glad Fedora isn't Ravenwood. While I agree with the depiction of Abner as a grave robber, there are a few things I take exception to regarding Fedora being Ravenwood:

1. Indy dressing like his mentor: I know that Fedora's outfit was meant to be a teaser, to build suspense until we find that River Phoenix is Indy. Even without Fedora being Abner, it is bad enough that Indy's eventual outfit was derivative. But Indy and Abner dressing alike? That makes it SO much worse.

2. All important events in Indy's life happening in 20 minutes at Arches: Once again, it's bad enough that this fluke adventure gives Indy his whip, scar, hat, and lifelong pursuit. But to throw his mentor in as well... That's just TOO much. Indy must have been REALLY impressionable that day.

Paden, I like all your thoughts on Ravenwood. I think you make a good case of why Fedora COULD be Ravenwood. (I guess I just don't want him to be.) I'd just like to point out that there's nothing about your theories that necessitate Fedora being Ravenwood. Fedora could just have easily been Forrestal.

Well technically, all he got was the KNOWLEDGE of how to use a whip and his hat. Besides that, he's always been interested in archeology (see The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, Chapter 1 - 5). In the very first Chapter he mentioned he'd like to be an archeologist, THAT is where it started in terms of lifelong pursuit (of a career)... if you're talking about his lifelong pursuit after the Cross of Coronado, then that's different... but even then, so what? It's not entirely out of the question that someone might use a weapon, gain a hat, and start his life long search for a Cross all in the same day... Knowledge, Material and a Crusade all in one day... wow, not very hard to do. I've done so myself.
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:18 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oki9Sedo
I always thought he was Abner up until a couple of years ago. I really can't remember where I got that idea, it was just something I always took as fact for years until I discovered there is in fact no basis for it.

Me too. It's not a recent thing as it was widely circulated and discussed prior to the release of TLC - in the 1980's. And because the movie never actually mentioned his name, I'd just assumed that he was indeed Abner... and it was a little nod from Lucas/Spielberg to Raiders.

I think I actually prefer him being Abner, even if nothing is made of it...
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Darth Vile
And because the movie never actually mentioned his name, I'd just assumed that he was indeed Abner...
Actually, it does and his name is Garth. (Granted, the mention is not that easy to make out but it's there.)
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Old 11-13-2008, 03:05 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
One of the henchmen, Roscoe (the red-headed kid) calls him Garth so it's not Abner. Check out the subtitles
and click to this good, little thread below to find out where Indy does meet "Fedora" again!

Anybody wish Indy would have met "Fedora" again?

Both the subtitles in the 2003 and 2008 DVDs say Fedora for me but the Last Crusade junior novel has Garth. At least it confirms who Roscoe is directing the line at. Now... which one's Alfred?
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Old 11-13-2008, 04:02 PM   #75
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There was a German novel where Indy meets up with Fedora again in the 1940s and he had the name Roscoe I believe....
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