Should Marion have even been brought back?

Crack that whip said:

Indeed, he seems to cherish it still and wear it regularly all the way into his 90s, as we know.

But I do think there's room for one more without stretching credibility too much.

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One more will only leave the door wide open for a successor. As it is, Indy's just ridden off into the sunset for a second time. Albeit with the kid and the ball and chain in tow.

Bringing Marion back for KOTCS brought closure to the 'improper' affair he had when she was 15. Something that should have been expected of the now socially conscious Lucas. The fourth movie was conceivably the last in which could make amends.

If they were thinking of a fifth at that time, it would have come about much sooner. It's only the fan desire to see Indy one more time that makes #5 a possible event. What's the point of bringing Indy back just to have him play second fiddle to his son? I don't think Lucas ever intended that, so KOTCS was the last. Talk of #5, and of keeping the door open was part of the euphoria that accompanied Indy's return to the big screen after almost two decades. It's not a serious prospect, unless fans really do want to see an Austin Powers version of Indy.

It's not as though Indy's the only adventuring rogue to have lived (or still yet to live), so why humiliate this single character further out of a selfish desire to see more of him?

Montana Smith said:

If they were thinking of a fifth at that time, it would have come about much sooner.

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I'm not saying that they specific plans in mind for another follow-up, only that by design Indy4 was not as committed to being a closing chapter as Last Crusade was.

So if Marion hadn't been brought back, then you would have Indy at his age continue being a womaniser/playboy..... So Hugh Heffner essentially in Indy 5 then following up from 4?

In all seriousness, I wanted Marion back and stated as much often even before there was the announcement for making Indy 4. And it was the announcement of Marion's return that restored my want to see this film as the tidbits of film info that came through prior, actually disappointed me.

And as I've stated before, I think it fell apart in it's execution. And that, is not completely Karen's fault. It's a script problem, and to an extent, a directorial problem as well. I wanted to see Marion go in and kick some Ruskie ass. She was too soft and not given much to do. If there had been one character less in the final party perhaps the characters would have been better off in sharing screen time and if Marion had some kind of key knowledge that Ox might have given her prior to him losing it, maybe her position in the plot would have been better improved.

And Sophia Hapgood is a great character and should have screen time. However I think this would be advantageous in a reboot film, being Fate of Atlantis. Or even in a new tv series be it animation or live action.

Violet said:

I wanted to see Marion go in and kick some Ruskie ass. She was too soft and not given much to do.

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Marion vs Irina for the attentions of Indy. (The way the characters played out there was only one genuine contender worthy of the prize: she of the wubbleyous).

Raiders112390 said:

Her return was nothing more than shallow fanservice. She had no real arc. No real purpose in the film. Hell, she didn't even punch Spalko. I kind of wanted to see her and Spalko fight rather than Spalko and Mutt.

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Yeah I wanted to see Marion get some licks in aswell but she ultimately would have been outclassed by Spalko. I disagree that she served no purpose though. Her role is to give Indy more beyond his life of adventure which isn't enough for him anymore.

When the film first came out I couldn't fathom why she'd go back to a guy who burned her twice but I was ignoring that it was there in the film when she was claiming she had had a damn good life. She may have had that, but she settled for Colin Williams when she'd always wanted Indy.

I don't think I would have been convinced that Indy would have settled down if a new woman had been introduced. What we get with Marion is the only woman (as far as we know) that Indy has gone back to. Going by the adaptations, Indy left her the second time because he didn't want to give her a lonely life (thanks a bunch Anna Jones ) but did exactly that by running away.

Both Marion and Indy need each to be truly be happy. For that story, as flawed as the execution was, yes she should have been brought back.

Crack that whip said:

While she's not an archaeologist herself, that's not necessarily a prerequisite for anything. It's not as though the majority of real-life couples are made of pairs of people with the same profession. More importantly, she does share other attributes of Indy, namely her toughness and spirit. Those are qualities Indy would genuinely be attracted to.

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You're right that it's Marion's toughness and spirt that's an attraction to Indy, and you're definitely right that lovers aren't necessarily in the same profession, but I always felt that whole Indy's "true love" shouldn't necessarily be an archaeologist, she should at least have a passion and fascination for history and artifacts that could rival his. Marion does wear the medallion for the Staff of Ra, but that seems more as a way for her to connect to her father than her actual interest in it. Otherwise we never see any signs of Marion's interest in history. I could easily see Indy finding her to be bit of a bore after settling down.

I always liked the idea of Indy finding a girl, like Sophia Hapgood, who started off as a bit of a competitor and then they grow an attraction to each other and someone who he could share his adventures with. It would be a truly interesting relationship that we never really got to see from any of the previous Indy girls, that would feel completely genuine and would be compelling to watch on screen, so much so potentially, that I would've embraced the sentimentality of an ending similar to KOTCS's ending. I guess that's a great movie that will forever be unfilmed(unless of course they eventually reboot the franchise).

Violet said:

So if Marion hadn't been brought back, then you would have Indy at his age continue being a womaniser/playboy..... So Hugh Heffner essentially in Indy 5 then following up from 4?

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Just another reason why Indy 4 should've been filmed in the 90s.

Karen Allen also looked better in the '90s ;p.

Montana Smith said:

One more will only leave the door wide open for a successor. As it is, Indy's just ridden off into the sunset for a second time. Albeit with the kid and the ball and chain in tow.

Bringing Marion back for KOTCS brought closure to the 'improper' affair he had when she was 15. Something that should have been expected of the now socially conscious Lucas. The fourth movie was conceivably the last in which could make amends.

If they were thinking of a fifth at that time, it would have come about much sooner. It's only the fan desire to see Indy one more time that makes #5 a possible event. What's the point of bringing Indy back just to have him play second fiddle to his son? I don't think Lucas ever intended that, so KOTCS was the last. Talk of #5, and of keeping the door open was part of the euphoria that accompanied Indy's return to the big screen after almost two decades. It's not a serious prospect, unless fans really do want to see an Austin Powers version of Indy.

It's not as though Indy's the only adventuring rogue to have lived (or still yet to live), so why humiliate this single character further out of a selfish desire to see more of him?

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"Humiliate"? I don't think that's warranted.

I don't think they were thinking of a fifth before making the fourth - at least, not in anything beyond the vague edict to do five movies (suggested by the original Raiders deal with Paramount). They appear to have begun talking about a fifth simply because they had a good time doing a fourth and thought "yeah, maybe we can do one more." Perhaps wanting to top the last one enters into it as well; perhaps Harrison wants to get in as many more films of this type while he still can, perhaps George wants to further fill in the character's biography, whatever.

There seems to be this assumption that just because Indy is now married and has a son he knows about means the fifth movie would have to be heavily focused on them. While I may differ in not objecting to this as strenuously as others here, I have to point out it's not necessarily the case at all - there's no reason to think they'd even be in the movie, or be in it beyond cameos at the adventure's beginning and/or conclusion, anyway. Just because Indy has a family doesn't mean he's going to take them on every quest, especially when both Marion and Mutt are both adults (the ongoing debate about Mutt's exact age notwithstanding, I think we can safely say he'd definitely be in his early twenties if Indy V is set a few years after Crystal Skull, as would almost certainly be the case).

Don't like Marion in Crystal Skull? Ok, but what about Raiders? Assuming she even accompanies Indy on the adventure at all, I don't see why she has to be a "ball and chain" (unless you're using that in a general sense to refer to the concept of marriage generally, and not specifically the tough, self-reliant Marion as some sort of impediment - and if so, shame on you for that, too! ).

Raiders112390 said:

Karen Allen also looked better in the '90s ;p.

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So did Harrison Ford. So did lots of people. But looks aren't everything.

Crack that whip said:

"Humiliate"? I don't think that's warranted.

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It would be a humiliation if his last outing was as the virtual sidekick, because age prevented him from remaining a dominant force.

Crack that whip said:

There seems to be this assumption that just because Indy is now married and has a son he knows about means the fifth movie would have to be heavily focused on them. While I may differ in not objecting to this as strenuously as others here, I have to point out it's not necessarily the case at all - there's no reason to think they'd even be in the movie, or be in it beyond cameos at the adventure's beginning and/or conclusion, anyway. Just because Indy has a family doesn't mean he's going to take them on every quest, especially when both Marion and Mutt are both adults...

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They'll still be there in the background, if not shown. Until TLC Indy was alone but for friends and acquaintances. As soon as his father is introduced family becomes a bargaining factor. He's forced to rescue dad. In KOTCS it's also family, though he didn't know it, that sent him off to rescue Oxley.

Crack that whip said:

Assuming she even accompanies Indy on the adventure at all, I don't see why she has to be a "ball and chain" (unless you're using that in a general sense to refer to the concept of marriage generally, and not specifically the tough, self-reliant Marion as some sort of impediment - and if so, shame on you for that, too! ).

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Both meanings!

Marriage creates a permanency (as it would be unlikely in the chronology that he'd divorce Marion). Up until then women came and went, and they were generally a nuisance - as with Willie and Elsa. Even Marion wasn't very helpful at first, which was understandable. Burning down The Raven got her on board, though.

And it's not just the marriage, but his college promotion as well. Another ball and chain, on top of age, that will cramp Indy's freedom. While the character was only his late fifties, it was as though Lucas was writing Indy into a corner because Harrison was mid-sixties.

Crack that whip said:

Don't like Marion in Crystal Skull? Ok, but what about Raiders?

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She was a wonderful character in ROTLA. Tough, independent, yet also trapped. Abandoned for her own good by Indy, forced into prostitution through bad luck.

There's a chance that marriage would have worked if it had occurred in 1936. They could have been a formidable pair, complete with a sparkling dialogue. Think William Powell and Myrna Loy, but with a good right hook.

A combination of age and poorer dialogue in KOTCS doesn't make for such an appealing prospect. Instead, Marion's return looks much more like a convenient way of tying up loose ends. An instant family so Indy won't be lonely after the deaths of his father and Marcus; and also a way for Indy to make amends for wrecking Marion's earlier life.

Montana Smith said:

It would be a humiliation if his last outing was as the virtual sidekick, because age prevented him from remaining a dominant force.

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Agreed, but that's not what I think would happen.

Montana Smith said:

They'll still be there in the background, if not shown. Until TLC Indy was alone but for friends and acquaintances. As soon as his father is introduced family becomes a bargaining factor. He's forced to rescue dad. In KOTCS it's also family, though he didn't know it, that sent him off to rescue Oxley.

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It is, but what's the matter there?

Montana Smith said:

Marriage creates a permanency (as it would be unlikely in the chronology that he'd divorce Marion). Up until then women came and went, and they were generally a nuisance - as with Willie and Elsa. Even Marion wasn't very helpful at first, which was understandable. Burning down The Raven got her on board, though.

And it's not just the marriage, but his college promotion as well. Another ball and chain, on top of age, that will cramp Indy's freedom. While the character was only his late fifties, it was as though Lucas was writing Indy into a corner because Harrison was mid-sixties.

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I don't see it as a "corner," necessarily. It's just a different avenue the character's been taken down (and one that itself lends some interest and development).

Montana Smith said:

She was a wonderful character in ROTLA. Tough, independent, yet also trapped. Abandoned for her own good by Indy, forced into prostitution through bad luck.

There's a chance that marriage would have worked if it had occurred in 1936. They could have been a formidable pair, complete with a sparkling dialogue. Think William Powell and Myrna Loy, but with a good right hook.

A combination of age and poorer dialogue in KOTCS doesn't make for such an appealing prospect. Instead, Marion's return looks much more like a convenient way of tying up loose ends. An instant family so Indy won't be lonely after the deaths of his father and Marcus; and also a way for Indy to make amends for wrecking Marion's earlier life.

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I'm not sure there's much wrong with that, either (save perhaps for the choice of words used to describe it).

I do agree about Powell and Loy, and indeed don't see that they can't evoke a little of that even now, in the hypothetical fifth movie. I think it all comes down to the quality of the script, though. Hopefully, if they reuse a previous writer, it'll be Kasdan rather than Koepp...

But back to KotCS (since this is the Indy IV forum and not the Indy V one), I just can't share in the displeasure with Marion in the movie, even if I wanted to. To me, her return was and still is quite welcome, and in particular the wedding is a real high point in the movie - in the series, even. I accept that I may simply have different tastes and desires from some other fans, but there it is.