He chose... poorly.

The Drifter

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Agent Spalko said:
This has been debated before hence the "cup of a carpenter" but when Indy grabs it and when it falls in the crevice it makes a hollow "ring" like the sound a clay cup makes. Then one wonders why it doesn't shatter when it is dropped into the crevice. Perhaps it is because it is "enchanted."

My bad. I did not know this was debated before.
The Ultimate Guide says that the Grail is unadorned metal.

<b>"Indy is not dazzled by the jewels and gold. Under the watchful gaze of Elsa and the Grail Knight, he chooses a blemished, unadorned, metal-lined goblet with a stout base. With his father's life at stake, he drinks from the font, deeply and wisely."</b>
 
Benraianajones said:
Deffo Spalko, when the Knight says "The truel grail will bring you life..." - that is ALL he heard. Also, I think the fact he goes against his own advice (not to trust anyone), and let's Elsa (who he has no reason not to trust, since she appears "clued up" on the grail) just goes to show his desperation for the grail. You could also say that to a degree, like Elsa (despite her seeing what the false grail did) he didn't believe in its power truly, or he may have took heed of the death warning more serious, same with Elsa passing the seal. Total greed!

That's just it. Henry says, "Elsa never really believed in the grail." So after seeing what it did to Donovan and witnessing its miraculous healing powers on Henry, she still foolishly believes that the Knight's warning is just hyperbole and crosses the seal. Obviously she is consumed by her own greed but she clearly heard the Knight say that was the price of immortality. The grail would have been completely worthless to her, the Nazis or anyone else beyond the temple. Her prize was a no-prize.
 

Benraianajones

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That is true - in her mind, despite having witnessed all that, according to her mind she has "eternal life" right there in her hands - she is obviously somewhat delusional when she is crossing the seal and declaring it is her and Indy's. I guess it is kind of an oxymoron, she does believe in the power, cause she witnessed it - but also, she doesn't - as she still thinks she can break the rules and leave and make use of the grail. She is totally consumed with having the grail with her, and she does somewhat lose her mind. We even see her die for it!

I'd also like to add, yes,for the Nazi's and anyone wanting the grail as a means of immortality - the prize is a no-prize. But for Henry and Indy (or anyone that just wished to be in the same room/holding it) got their "prize" of "illumination".
 
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Bat-Dude

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Benraianajones said:
just goes to show his desperation for the grail.

Yep. You can really see this in his eyes when he and Indy are recounting the stories of the knights. Specifically when Indy says, "It's an old man's dream" and Donovan replies with "It's every man's dream." You could also read a little into Indy's reaction that Indy sees Donovan's desperation too.

Edit: I'd also like to note that Donovan's desperation is a nice foil to Indy's character growth, since we know that Indy overcame his own obsession with greed in the form of "fortune and glory" in Temple of Doom.
 

Benraianajones

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Yeah, and another I seem to recall is when Elsa hands him the grail, Donovan states "This truly is the cup or christ" (or something to that effect) - as well as stating its beauty. He isn't even certain it is the correct grail, it is as if he just convinces himself it is the one he wants to drink from the Holy grail so bad. Elsa could have given him a pink cup with yellow spots and he'd probably have convinced himself it was "the one!".

Also, he doesn't even seem to flinch at the suggestion the false one could cause death. Donovans mind when in the chamber: IMMORTALITY.
 

Sam Falco

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Tasteless? Maybe.

HILARIOUS? Yes.

Donovan also kinda dooms himself earlier in the movie when she says "No, we may need them alive if we are unable to recover the pages from Brody" and he says "Always do what the doctor orders!" Even though she knew full well, having met Marcus and seen his lack of ability in the field, knew they would be able to find him. So even then she was giving advice to suit what SHE wanted.
 

Niteshade007

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Sam Falco said:
Donovan also kinda dooms himself earlier in the movie when she says "No, we may need them alive if we are unable to recover the pages from Brody" and he says "Always do what the doctor orders!" Even though she knew full well, having met Marcus and seen his lack of ability in the field, knew they would be able to find him. So even then she was giving advice to suit what SHE wanted.

Right, but wouldn't that strengthen her character a bit? She doesn't see the need to kill them as they don't deserve to die because of this man's greed. She shows remorse to Indy when he's in Germany, and she is upset when Donovan shoots Henry Sr. While it can interpreted as greed that lead her to take out Donovan, it may also be simply because she knew he was a bad man, and she decided to help Jones by getting rid of such an odious person.
 
Here's the problem I have with that. When she betrays Indy and he's tied up to the chair with his father she is toying with them both with a coy grin on her face even when she drives off from the castle there's not a hint of regret on her face. It was a job and her work was done.

Next we see Elsa wandering alone outside the rally sobbing when Indy finds her. Suddenly we are to believe she has a conscience and was depressed about feelings of guilt about what she had done and is now trying to "make up" for it? So she suddenly shows compassion for Henry when he gets shot and then takes out Donovan then attempts to make off with the grail and persuade Indy to follow "It's OURS Indy. Yours and MINE."
 

Niteshade007

New member
Agent Spalko said:
Here's the problem I have with that. When she betrays Indy and he's tied up to the chair with his father she is toying with them both with a coy grin on her face even when she drives off from the castle there's not a hint of regret on her face. It was a job and her work was done.

Next we see Elsa wandering alone outside the rally sobbing when Indy finds her. Suddenly we are to believe she has a conscience and was depressed about feelings of guilt about what she had done and is now trying to "make up" for it? So she suddenly shows compassion for Henry when he gets shot and then takes out Donovan then attempts to make off with the grail and persuade Indy to follow "It's OURS Indy. Yours and MINE."

I didn't say she was well written.

I see your point. When she's first revealed to be a "baddie," she's an out and out baddie. Total b*tch. But after that scene, she is never shown to be like that again. She is shown to be compassionate, perhaps even in a little bit over her head. The desert scene gives me that impression. When she sees Kazim dead, she seems to be upset and truly concerned.

Her character makes too many transitions for me to like her too much. She starts off as a smart, beautiful archaeologist, then smart, beautiful villain, then a smart, beautiful depressed woman, then a smart, beautiful cunning woman, then a moron who ignores a specific warning, walks slowly backwards out of a collapsing temple and ignores yet another warning from someone trying to save her.

Like I said, not very well written.
 

eroc

New member
Agent Spalko said:
Perhaps but the true grail amid a room full of exotic chalices would draw some sort of attention to itself. You have to wonder why such a plain looking old cup is doing beside all of these exotic gold and bronze chalices. Even if he is blinded by the glamour of choosing the most ideally luxurious looking one he would have to have noticed it and wondered what such a sorry old cup was doing there.

Reminds me of that old Sesame Street song:

"One of these things just doesn't belong here. Come on, can you tell which one before my song is done?"

When Donovan turns the cup up to his greedy lips, you can see that the base is screwed to the stem and cup. The screw and bolt look very modern.
 
The Grail Diary makes mention of the three booby traps. No mention at all of the "having to choose the right cup" test.

Wonder if the Knight just added that in the last year or two for shats and giggles...

Say this place really existed and was rebuilt after crumbling in the Last Crusade, you think the Knight has added IKEA cups, McDonalds cups and 7-11 Big Gulps?

~Knight finishes rearranging the cups~

KNIGHT: "You like what I've done to the place? Ehhh...nobody's here. Who cares? Who am I even talking to? Screw it...I'm just going to drink from the wrong cup. $10 says I don't die."
 
"Three books. Nobody said anything about three books."

Now that is an interesting idea. What if the Knight had attempted suicide by drinking from a false grail. He already drank from the true grail and attained immortality. Would drinking from a false grail afterwards cause him to age rapidly like Donovan or merely cancel out the effects of immortality and he would begin to age normally again? Hmmm...
 

Crack that whip

New member
phildominator said:
The Grail Diary makes mention of the three booby traps. No mention at all of the "having to choose the right cup" test.

Wonder if the Knight just added that in the last year or two for shats and giggles...

Say this place really existed and was rebuilt after crumbling in the Last Crusade, you think the Knight has added IKEA cups, McDonalds cups and 7-11 Big Gulps?

Or maybe even the 1984 Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom collectible glasses...
:eek:
 
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