The Gospel of Judas Iscariot

HovitosKing

Well-known member
indyt said:
I understand you guys points. Like I said earlier, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, a very real relationship with a real Being. This relationship does not include rules and regulations and legalism. Sadly that is what Christianity has become. There are many things I do not agree that the church is doing, especially the Western gentile Christianity of America. Nonetheless I still go to church to worship God, not for the people but for Him. I hate to say it, but modern Christianity and the modern day church have come a long way from what Chirst truly taught and is. I wish I could go back to the church in the book of Acts, now that was real worship.

Well said. Very well said, in fact.
 

Johan

Active member
ClintonHammond said:
So called "faith healing" is one of the OLDEST scams in the book....

If yer duped by THAT, you need more than meds I'd wager......
How is it a scam when it is working? Time after time...myself included.
Of course there have been some horrible instances with the tv evangelists doing scams. But this is real. My friend was in a cast for a broken leg, 2 days after the broken leg we prayed, and he tore off the cast.
I can't give I witness account for this one but I have a friend that prayed for his aunt who was dead for 2 days...in the morg. They prayed over her and she walked from under the sheet.
But I can give eyewitness to dozens of instances of healing. Nevermind the audible voice and angelic visitation. Your being scammed in thinking these are all scams. It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.
I haven't been to one big tv evangelsit conference so I know nothing about the fake healing. I can only speak about my group of friends and our own experiences. Healings that I encounter are no rare occasion, and there is nothing false about them.
 

Johan

Active member
Aaron H said:
You can attack the post, but not the poster.

Just because someone attacked you personally...which from my point of view doesn't look that way (ie "you started it")...doesn't give you a right to lash back with personal attacks.

Show more restraint; if you can't, you've been warned.

No worries Aaron. I don't have to defend my broken ankle that is apparenlty NOT healed...because these things don't happen.
 

Aaron H

Moderator Emeritus
ClintonHammond said:
Just more of your personal 'vendetta' against me, so W....

1), Isn't this exactly the subject matter for a Private message?!?! So as to, at the very least, not drag the thread off topic?!?! Shouldn't a Mod also lead by example of behaviour?

2) Funny how you're the only one who EVER seems to have an issue with it, while turning a blind eye to the behaviour of others....

*shrug*

Need to see good evidence of how easily Faith Healing is debunked? Read some of the works of James Randi.... www.randi.org just for starters....
You just seem to stand out of the crowd. You draw such great attention to yourself.
 

Paden

Member
Aaron H said:
You just seem to stand out of the crowd. You draw such great attention to yourself.
I have to admit, that's one of the most elegantly phrased slaps in the face I've read in quite some time. :p
 

indyt

Active member
IndyJohan said:
It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.

Thats what I have been trying to say.
And as far as the tv faith healers, yes, most of them I do not trust. It is God that heals, according to His will.
 
"You just seem to stand out of the crowd"
Nothing stands out from the crowd better than the truth

"It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God."
Not at all... all one has to do is look at the overwhelming LACK of evidence...

"aunt who was dead for 2 days"
Bull.... show me the news-paper article... News that big would NOT have gone uncovered.... show me ONE shred of evidence..... Show me the coroners report...

I could MAKE UP fanciful stories about how I can fly, melt steel in my hands, run across water and other fantastic tales.... anyone who thought they were real would need to have their head examined
 
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HovitosKing

Well-known member
IndyJohan said:
It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is no God.

Actually, faith is the antithesis of knowledge and is not a factor in one's refusal to believe at all. Richard Dawkins said it best:

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."

Faith is an excuse to remain ignorant. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Deadlock

New member
Faith is one possible human response to the "no-see-ums" in human existence. Skepticism is another. Disbelief is another. Denial is another. Knowledge and reason may have an impact on any of those responses, or it may not.

"Knowledge" (in the common understanding) is a very subjective and indistinct. You and another person may experience precisely the same thing and derive two entirely different sets of "knowledge" based on that common experience.

Further analysis and consideration may solidify knowledge to the point where it can be widely accepted or even considered "universal", but outside of very small mathematical and scientific circles... most knowledge never gets that far. Despite the bluster from intellectuals, the inherant value of "knowledge" is very, very subjective.

(Unless you are proposing some objective and transcendant standard of truth...)
 
That's the 2nd time Richard Dawkins name has come up today on the various Message Boards I frequent...I'm gonna have to get my hands on some of his writing!
 

Johan

Active member
I'm sorry that I dont record the hundreds of healings that happen quite frequently. I have no need or desire to prove anything to you, I know the truth of what I've seen/heard/felt/done.
I see a lot of this yet MOST of it takes place in the underground church in Nepal and China.
You seem to find articles AGAINST every little thing I say. How bout looking for some articles of some genuine healings that have happened. Oh, wait...there is no article or anything I could say anyway that would change the way you think.
Mmm..off the top of my head look up men such as Smith Wigglesworth, his faith is well recorded. Here's a few: http://www.sendrevival.com/testimonies/categories/deadraised/index.htm
 
Quoted from more web sites than I can shake a stick at

"Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947) - faith healer who used violence to accomplish miracles (i.e., he hit people in order to heal them). He also claimed to raise the dead, although that claim was never confirmed."

emphasis mine.... again.... If I went around claiming I could fly, you'd want to see PROOF, right?!?! I sure hope you would....

Also if he was such a crap-hot healer, how come he couldn't heal his own daughter of her deafness?!?!?

Save your breath.... I'm sure you have some excuse about her 'faith' not being 'true' or some such that won't be much more than a load of hot air......

"there is no article or anything I could say anyway that would change the way you think."
Well, not so far.... I'm willing to see what you have to offer though..... But I'm going to continue to be VERY critical, yes.
 

Johan

Active member
ClintonHammond said:
Also if he was such a crap-hot healer, how come he couldn't heal his own daughter of her deafness?!?!?
Why? Because he's not God. Not even Jesus healed eveyone in sight. What you think everyone is Healed all the time? Absolutly not. I'm not going to bring Jesus down to a simple humanitarian! Heck, when he returns to earth he is literally going to kill people! But that's a whole other topic. Wigglesworth DID use violence. But it worked. And it must have been God telling him to do so.
And there are many of his healings that had MANY eye witnessess. And you know they were healings because if they were not they would have killed people.
For instance, he was preaching in a church and a baby had died. The baby was brought to him. He picked it up and threw it across the room as far as he could and the baby came alive when it landed.
He would also literally punch cancer out of people. He put a shoe on a mans "leg stump"...instantly a foot grew into the shoe.
(non healing story) It was reliably recorded that John Westly was preaching to a crowd well over 2000 people. God came and all 2000 people fell to the ground utterly uncontious.
All this being said, My ankle is healed...I had a speech empediment when I was a child and it was healed. My best friend broke his leg...I prayed for it and it was instantly healed. Anyway, I can see this conversation is getting no where and we are so far off topic its not even funny. So I will say, if your athiest lifestyle is working for you....why are you in SOO much need of hearing more of my experiences and beliefs...and why are you soo defensive and bringing up articles or whatever you can to proove me wrong. Either way you will one day bow and confess.
 
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HovitosKing

Well-known member
IndyJohan, I don't mean to beat up on your faith or to imply that what you've witnessed is inaccurate or untruthful. I am a scientist, a skeptic and an agnostic, so I believe only what can be proven. Nothing else. I can generate a counter-argument for any claim or assertion you might submit, and you're right in assuming that you could never convert me to your system of beliefs. I do not subscribe to the idea of faith, although I sometimes envy those who do. Finally, I'm not finding articles to counter your every argument, I'm simply giving rebuttals with information I already have at my disposal. I see it as nothing more than a healthy argument or debate, but certainly nothing personal.

The history of the christian church is an interesting one from a purely academic standpoint. Its history does not affect my opinion of the doctrine itself, nor should it yours. It does make for some good reading and discussion, however, so I would recommend the works of Bart Ehrman to you if you're so inclined. Otherwise, this thread has grown tiresome and I'm retiring myself from it. Cheers.
 
"you will one day bow and confess"
I bow to NOTHING.

"this thread has grown tiresome"
yes it has... I'm following HK out of here....

Bartender... get IJ here a pint, and a shot if he wants it... and put it on my tab.... I'll settle that up next time I'm in....

I'm gonna go look up more Richard Dawkins....
"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it. Accepting that a virus might be difficult to detect in your own mind, what tell-tale signs might you look out for? I shall answer by imaging how a medical textbook might describe the typical symptoms of a sufferer (arbitrarily assumed to be male)."

"1. The patient typically finds himself impelled by some deep, inner conviction that something is true, or right, or virtuous: a conviction that doesn't seem to owe anything to evidence or reason, but which, nevertheless, he feels as totally compelling and convincing. We doctors refer to such a belief as 'faith.'"

"If you have a faith, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it is the same faith as your parents and grandparents had. No doubt soaring cathedrals, stirring music, moving stories and parables, help a bit. But by far the most important variable determining your religion is the accident of birth. The convictions that you so passionately believe would have been a completely different, and largely contradictory, set of convictions, if only you had happened to be born in a different place. Epidemiology, not evidence."
 

Johan

Active member
HovitosKing said:
IndyJohan, I don't mean to beat up on your faith or to imply that what you've witnessed is inaccurate or untruthful. I am a scientist, a skeptic and an agnostic, so I believe only what can be proven. Nothing else. I can generate a counter-argument for any claim or assertion you might submit, and you're right in assuming that you could never convert me to your system of beliefs. I do not subscribe to the idea of faith, although I sometimes envy those who do. Finally, I'm not finding articles to counter your every argument, I'm simply giving rebuttals with information I already have at my disposal. I see it as nothing more than a healthy argument or debate, but certainly nothing personal.
.
No offence. But this was in response to CH. Anyway, Science has been trying to prove miricles for years...and some they have. But most they can't and when they come up with things it often makes Science just look stupid.
Like the recent scientist that said Jesus was really walking on ice. This makes no sense if you actually read the story. Same guy said a gust of wind parted the red sea...hmmm. Again if you read the story it makes no sense, nevermind the fact that God parting the sea seems more believeable than a gust of wind.
 

IndyBuff

Well-known member
After standing by and patiently reading this thread, I find that those of us to believe in Jesus and follow Him are actually more experienced than those who claim to not believe.

No one is born as a Christian or follower of Jesus. It's a choice that you and you alone can make; no one and no thing can do it for you. We have ALL been non-believers at one time or another until we chose to accept Christ and His teachings.

What are some of you non-believers so afraid of? What do you have to lose? We were in your shoes at some point in our lives....why are so you scared to step into ours?
 
Was just getting my coat out of the closet...

No fear from me "Indy".... To put it simply, I'd have to lose all of what other people might call 'self-respect' if I allowed myself to believe something as patiently absurd as 'religion' seems to me. The "Ooogy-Boogy" factor is just WAY too high for me to believe it, as it is presented. Like UFOs and Bigfoot, sure I'd LIKE to believe... It would be a way more interesting world if there were such things... But the lack of ANY evidence to support, and the preponderance of other explanations for such phenomenon forces me to relegate such to the realm of fantasy. While I sure enjoy good fantasy, I surely do not confuse it with reality.

Side note... it seems that this Dawkins fellow sort of suggests at one point that religion IS a scientific idea... just not a very good one....

Anyway... got my coat.... got my hat.... *pats pockets for lighter, wallet, smokes, car keys* Yup... that's all that....

You folks have a good night eh.
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Indy said:
After standing by and patiently reading this thread, I find that those of us to believe in Jesus and follow Him are actually more experienced than those who claim to not believe.

No one is born as a Christian or follower of Jesus. It's a choice that you and you alone can make; no one and no thing can do it for you. We have ALL been non-believers at one time or another until we chose to accept Christ and His teachings.

What are some of you non-believers so afraid of? What do you have to lose? We were in your shoes at some point in our lives....why are so you scared to step into ours?
Actually, I've noticed that most of the accepting comes from the social pressure. People tend to follow the viewing issues of those who're dear, close and around them, so it's hard to claim it's a completely unaffected choice of free will.

Another thing that shows from your post is that most believers tend to live in the world of black and white. Most of non-believers don't live in denial. There's simply too much contradicting evidence on both sides to make their mind of, and they're not comfortable with taking sides and knowingly turn down a point that may not be in agreement to what they've chosen to believe. I think that's just rational and can't really blame anyone.

In that one's technically right that we've all been the same once, but in that there's a long missing shot by claiming that only the believers are the ones who have changed somehow. As back then when we've all been young enough to be non-believers we've prolly not even known that there is such thing as religion. And I don't know about you, but I tend to think that infant me and current me are on little different stages of development. The difference comes when we've become aware of the fact that there is something to believe in. So not to believe is a matter of choosing just like believing is.

So, sorry to say this, but your analogy lacks a bit. Those who have faith are not any more seasoned than those who don't, and vice versa. I've noticed that the most rational and rewarding way to live for me is to shrug off the things that cannot be proved and live by that I know to be concrete.

Now, at this point especially the believing end of the scale come to me and ask how can I live without feeling the grace and confidence that faith lays on me. Well, believe it or not, it can be more rewarding than you believe. If you're happy with what you have, good for you, but I can't be the same.

It's odd that those who do have faith seem less willing to buy that those living without it can be just as happy with themselves as they are. There's no need for me to market my view of the world to those who are not that significant to my life, something that numerous people having faith in some kind of religious doctrine seem to be doing all the time.
 

roundshort

Active member
Indy said:
After standing by and patiently reading this thread, I find that those of us to believe in Jesus and follow Him are actually more experienced than those who claim to not believe.

No one is born as a Christian or follower of Jesus. It's a choice that you and you alone can make; no one and no thing can do it for you. We have ALL been non-believers at one time or another until we chose to accept Christ and His teachings.

What are some of you non-believers so afraid of? What do you have to lose? We were in your shoes at some point in our lives....why are so you scared to step into ours?


HUH?!?!?

I actually think Finn had a nice retort, Good job Finn!
I agree withthe Finnish on this, but i just picutre standing out side the pearly gates and letting out a lound Homer Simpsonesq "D'oh!" and people like Indy will walk by and say,
"Told you So!"
 
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