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Old 07-26-2005, 01:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indifan101
Michael Crichton, Arthur C. Clarke and Tom Clancy! I love to read Jules Verne also!

Jules Verne kicks A$$!!

Tom clancy puts me to sleep.

Michael Crichton is awesome!!

Haven't read any Arthur C. Clarke

Monkey wrote quite a good Indiana Jones novel : )

Agatha Christie rules!!!
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Old 07-26-2005, 02:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Canyon
I have to agree. McCoy captured the spirit of Indy the best.

Be sure to read them in order.
http://raven.theraider.net/showthread.php?threadid=5871

I liked all of the books but I also felt that McCoy did the best job of capturing the Indy universe. I'm currently in the process of re-reading the books but I remember The Philosopher's Stone being one of my favorites.
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:06 PM   #28
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Monkey, great to see you back again!

Hope to get an e-mail from you soon.
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Old 07-27-2005, 08:36 PM   #29
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Thanks Canyon,

Yes, just back for a bit, then off to the wilderness again. I'll zap you a message soon.
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Old 07-28-2005, 06:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey
Jules Verne kicks A$$!!

Tom clancy puts me to sleep.

Michael Crichton is awesome!!

Haven't read any Arthur C. Clarke

Monkey wrote quite a good Indiana Jones novel : )

Agatha Christie rules!!!

The first book you need to read by Arthur C. Clarke is 2001: A Space Odessey
My favorite novel by Jules Verne is From the Earth to the Moon!
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Old 08-05-2005, 10:16 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey
Jules Verne kicks A$$!!

Tom clancy puts me to sleep.

Michael Crichton is awesome!!

Haven't read any Arthur C. Clarke

Monkey wrote quite a good Indiana Jones novel : )

Agatha Christie rules!!!

I like Clancy, and MC a lot. with Clancy you have to read the right one. I'm reading them in order but I suggest that you start with Patriot Games (First Jack Ryan novel). That was pretty good. If you like it read Without Remorse and then continue with the storyline. But be prepared for Red Rabbit...that was reallyy slow and the ending wasn't that great. Foley's cool though/
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Old 08-06-2005, 12:44 AM   #32
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Michael Crichton is one of my favorites and Tom Clancy has some good books (The Hunt For Red October, Red Storm Rising and Rainbow Six are great.) If you're looking for more great action books I'd recommend Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond. His Bond novels are great thrillers and and still hold up 50 years later.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:30 AM   #33
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Bantam Series: Canon?

What say you?

Are the Bantam series of novels canon, as in, do they fit into the timeline of Indiana Jone's life?
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:51 AM   #34
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In relation to the movies and YIJC tv series, the novels fit in very well. There are a few discrepancies with his college years, for example Oxley and Ravenwood never show up in the novels or YIJC, and Jack Shannon never shows up in YIJC. But most of that can be glossed over with simple explanations. The way I see it, the films and YIJC are canon while the novels are selectively canon. If one likes a conflicting comic book or video game plot more, then they can pick and choose. The final Bantam novels sold me on the novels being canon, as the buildup to Temple of Doom was too good too ignore.
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:07 PM   #35
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Contradictions in the Bantam series

Outside of the college timeline, are there any other contradictions either within the series of Bantam novels themselves, or between the novels and the 4 movies, or between the novels and the YIJC?
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Old 05-24-2010, 04:13 PM   #36
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Good question. The college problem is the biggest and most problematic, but there are a few other minor contradictions that are easily explained or ignored.

None of the three authors took especial care to be consistent with each other, though there aren't any glaring problems. I can't think of any contradictions with the movie trilogy, but since Young Indy was being produced concurrently with the novels, neither seemed to be aware of what the other was doing.

For example, I'm re-reading Genesis Deluge right now, and Indy's friend Jack Shannon is part of a small-time gangster family. They get beat up in a prison cell by Al Capone and his thugs, with no mention of Indy's contact with him back in Mystery of the Blues. Earlier Jack had to explain to Indy how Capone and Torrio had come to power in Chicago, even though Indy was there when it happened.

Phil
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:13 PM   #37
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Raiders112390,

Firstly, you have to be the KING at asking questions you've ALREADY asked & starting threads on topics which already exist. Bantam Series: Canon?

Secondly, can't you read the novels yourself?

Third, as JuniorJones/Phil wrote above + a couple of other contradictions:
- the crystal skull
- the summer of 1916
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Old 05-24-2010, 05:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Raiders112390,

Firstly, you have to be the KING at asking questions you've ALREADY asked & starting threads on topics which already exist. Bantam Series: Canon?

Secondly, can't you read the novels yourself?

Third, as JuniorJones/Phil wrote above + a couple of other contradictions:
- the crystal skull
- the summer of 1916

Firstly, I don't cycle through my posts to see what I've written in the past and not. I also don't have a good memory.

Second, would if I had the money to buy them. Used to have them when I was around 13-14 and my dad threw them away. Would buy them again but I'm broke at the moment.

Third: Why does the Crystal Skull present a contradiction? Indy mentions searching for the Skull previously, nearly dying of typhus trying to.
And why does the Summer of 1916 present a problem? From what I've read and recall I don't think any of the adult novels go any farther back than 1920.
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Old 05-24-2010, 06:29 PM   #39
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1) Well, you've been encouraged to use the Search feature many times before but, for some reason, you don't. Is it because you keep forgetting that there is such a feature due to your poor memory?

3) Indy almost died of typhus looking for Akator, not the skull.
-In Indy 4 he says he saw a crystal skull "once in the British Museum". This contradicts the novels (and an unproduced Young Indy episode).
-The summer of 1916 is part of a flashback which has Indy in the southwest U.S. (according to Rob MacGregor). In the TV show, he's in Europe.
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Old 05-24-2010, 07:54 PM   #40
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Firstly, I don't cycle through my posts to see what I've written in the past and not. I also don't have a good memory.

Then, please, please, compensate for your memory and at the very least, cycle through the threads you've started before you start a new one. Because Stoo is right - you've got a bad habit of starting redundant threads. You're well-behaved otherwise, and they're occasionally interesting topics, but it's careless and disrespectful to those who have already said meaningful things on those topics. It's not that they shouldn't be discussed again...it's that they should be discussed again as a continuation of the prior topic. That's the upside of a place like this having been around for ten years.

And this isn't just for Raiders112390...there's a number of you that do this. It'll make everyone's experience much more pleasant and rewarding if you would make that extra effort.

Threads merged.

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Old 05-26-2010, 06:20 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
1) Well, you've been encouraged to use the Search feature many times before but, for some reason, you don't. Is it because you keep forgetting that there is such a feature due to your poor memory?

3) Indy almost died of typhus looking for Akator, not the skull.
-In Indy 4 he says he saw a crystal skull "once in the British Museum". This contradicts the novels (and an unproduced Young Indy episode).
-The summer of 1916 is part of a flashback which has Indy in the southwest U.S. (according to Rob MacGregor). In the TV show, he's in Europe.

Seeing a crystal skull once in the British Museum ain't a contradiction. Although neglecting to mention all the ones he knows about may contradict his 90s self. He doesn't mention Deirdre Campbell in KotCS either but it still happened (despite denying he ever had a wife in one of McCoy's book).

The summer of '16 is when he's going on his vision quest with Aguila/Changing Man, yeah? The Ultimate Guide retconned that 1919. AND IT FITS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Outside of the college timeline, are there any other contradictions either within the series of Bantam novels themselves, or between the novels and the 4 movies, or between the novels and the YIJC?

All the stories fit quite well together until some reference book comes along and starts messing with the dates but LFL managed to drop every story (novels - including the French/German ones - comics, games, gamebooks) neatly into a space where nothing else is happening, the problem's in the details.

Most of Indy expanded universe just contradicts itself rather than the films and TV series. Although technical limitations kindly avoided having Abner Ravenwood wandering around with Indy in 1935 in the Emperor's Tomb game. Although Temple of the Forbidden Eye has him sending letters to Indy when they're not speaking. (In my personal canon it's Belloq using Abner's name not knowing Indy/Abner have fallen out and Indy's playing along to use Belloq's mind.)

Not really a contradiction but Peril of Delphi says Indy has a preference for horse riding and skiing(?!) over baseball and football when he's shown to be a big baseball fan in the TV series.
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Old 05-26-2010, 06:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Lao_Che
Seeing a crystal skull once in the British Museum ain't a contradiction. Although neglecting to mention all the ones he knows about may contradict his 90s self. He doesn't mention Deirdre Campbell in KotCS either but it still happened (despite denying he ever had a wife in one of McCoy's book).

The summer of '16 is when he's going on his vision quest with Aguila/Changing Man, yeah? The Ultimate Guide retconned that 1919. AND IT FITS!



All the stories fit quite well together until some reference book comes along and starts messing with the dates but LFL managed to drop every story (novels - including the French/German ones - comics, games, gamebooks) neatly into a space where nothing else is happening, the problem's in the details.

Most of Indy expanded universe just contradicts itself rather than the films and TV series. Although technical limitations kindly avoided having Abner Ravenwood wandering around with Indy in 1935 in the Emperor's Tomb game. Although Temple of the Forbidden Eye has him sending letters to Indy when they're not speaking. (In my personal canon it's Belloq using Abner's name not knowing Indy/Abner have fallen out and Indy's playing along to use Belloq's mind.)

Not really a contradiction but Peril of Delphi says Indy has a preference for horse riding and skiing(?!) over baseball and football when he's shown to be a big baseball fan in the TV series.

Well in the Summer of 1916 wasn't he in New Mexico and Mexico, before going to Europe? Perhaps his vision quest happened during that period right before Europe.

And yeah, not mentioning his numerous adventures with the different crystal skulls isn't really a contradiction because he's not going to spill his life story to some kid he just met and say he had a skull which had the power to kill those the bearer loves--Mutt would think he's nuts. It's similar how to even after seeing the events of TOD, he's still a skeptic to the supernatural in ROTLA, and is even still slightly skeptical in LC after discovering the Ark of the Covenant. I think Indy, throughout most of his life, was very skeptical toward the supernatural--similar to Scully in the X-Files, he probably always tried to rationalize it with a more logical, scientific answer to the things he witnessed, or in some cases might've felt "it was just a coincidence." It's not until LC I'd say that he becomes a true believer in the supernatural.

And it's quite clear the Crystal Skull he found in the '30s is different than the Akator Skull--And seeing as Mutt mentioned Akator specifically, there was no reason to really mention the other skulls as they had no importance to the discussion--two different kinds of skulls. Though he does mention that there are a number of crystal skulls in the world.

As far as not mentioning Deidre in KOTCS, there was no reason to, and in Secret of the Sphinx, he might've lied and said he was never married because maybe the memories of it were too painful to recall. I mean he doesn't mention being engaged to Molly, either, in the novels or films, probably for the same reason--two women he dearly loved died (indirectly) because of him. That wouldn't be an easy thing to bear for anyone, and they're probably two things he prefers to forget. Look at the way he reacted when he thought Marion was killed--he takes to drinking and has no fear of being killed--He's very emotional with regard to the women he loves, I'd say, even though by the '30s he has a very tough, seemingly uncaring exterior.

As far as the EU contradicting itself, are you referring to the EU as a whole or just the Bantam novels? I've never read any of the comics and have only played the Infernal Machine.

Whats the LFL by the way?

Last edited by Raiders112390 : 05-26-2010 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:25 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Well in the Summer of 1916 wasn't he in New Mexico and Mexico, before going to Europe? Perhaps his vision quest happened during that period right before Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peril at Delphi
His thoughts drifted back to when he was fourteen and had met an old Navajo named Changing Man while on a desert hike with his father. The Indian had taken a liking to young Indy, and said he would see him again. It hardly seemed likely, because a few months later Indy had moved to Chicago. The summer after he graduated from high school he returned to the Southwest to work on his uncle's ranch, but by then his encounter with the old Indian was only a distant memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
As far as not mentioning Deidre in KOTCS, there was no reason to, and in Secret of the Sphinx, he might've lied and said he was never married because maybe the memories of it were too painful to recall. I mean he doesn't mention being engaged to Molly, either, in the novels or films, probably for the same reason--two women he dearly loved died (indirectly) because of him. That wouldn't be an easy thing to bear for anyone, and they're probably two things he prefers to forget.

That's how I like to see it. Vicky > Molly > Deirdre is also the way I want to see why Indy ran away from Marion twice despite dates being moved to make it appear like he's with Deirdre and Marion at the same time in 1925. I can't like the character if it's the latter.

But most problems are fairly flexible, it's just there probably won't ever be an official answer unless there's something like a Complete Indiana Jones Encyclopedia released. Indy's met Wu Han three times (1914, 1933, 1935) but I like to think that they didn't know they'd met in 1914 (Temple of Doom Sourcebook) and realised after 1933 (Dinosaur Eggs) so whenever they meet up they pretend they don't know each other as a private joke like in 1935 (Emperor's Tomb).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
As far as the EU contradicting itself, are you referring to the EU as a whole or just the Bantam novels? I've never read any of the comics and have only played the Infernal Machine.

Whats the LFL by the way?

Lucasfilm Ltd, and the EU as a whole. MacGregor contradicts himself with the birth of Jack Shannon's son. Unless Shannon has time traveling sperm, his wife is pregnant with a baby named after Noah before she even meets Shannon OR Noah.
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Old 05-29-2010, 03:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Lao_Che
That's how I like to see it. Vicky > Molly > Deirdre is also the way I want to see why Indy ran away from Marion twice despite dates being moved to make it appear like he's with Deirdre and Marion at the same time in 1925. I can't like the character if it's the latter.

But most problems are fairly flexible, it's just there probably won't ever be an official answer unless there's something like a Complete Indiana Jones Encyclopedia released. Indy's met Wu Han three times (1914, 1933, 1935) but I like to think that they didn't know they'd met in 1914 (Temple of Doom Sourcebook) and realised after 1933 (Dinosaur Eggs) so whenever they meet up they pretend they don't know each other as a private joke like in 1935 (Emperor's Tomb).



Lucasfilm Ltd, and the EU as a whole. MacGregor contradicts himself with the birth of Jack Shannon's son. Unless Shannon has time traveling sperm, his wife is pregnant with a baby named after Noah before she even meets Shannon OR Noah.

True..and then you have the films contradicting themselves--
For example Indy talking about his mother as if she was still alive in Raiders; LC shows us she's deceased by 1912. Indy's attitude toward the supernatural in Raiders even though we see what he saw just a year earlier in TOD; etc. Marcus kind of acting like the events of Raiders didn't happen in LC.
There's a lot of little contradictions in the Indyverse that just need to be explained away.
And as far as the novels I think if new editions came out all that would be needed are date edits to make it fit. It's said in Seven Veils that the events with Deidire happened in March & April 1926 and thus Marion could've happened anytime in the next 8 months of 1926. I mean Marion clearly says ten years ago in 1936 and since it's made clear when exactly in 1926 the events of Seven Veils are happening, we know there's over half a year left for the Marion affair to occur.
And him running away from Marion in mid or late 1926 would make sense as he saw that his adventuring cost him the life of his beloved wife, and in 1937 he again probably remembered what his adventuring cost him back in 1926 and he probably felt he wasn't ready to settle down anyway. So actually the existence of Deidre in his life makes him leaving Marion twice make even more sense and I'd say is a big moment in his life, which would explain why he doesn't become truly emotionally close to any woman until 1957.

Last edited by Raiders112390 : 05-29-2010 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 06-04-2010, 01:25 AM   #45
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Does anyone know if his marriage with Deidre is considered canon by LFL/Lucas?
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Old 06-09-2010, 03:22 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Raiders112390
Does anyone know if his marriage with Deidre is considered canon by LFL/Lucas?

LFL: Yes
Lucas: Probably not...
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lao_Che
LFL: Yes
Lucas: Probably not...

But then according to Lucas, Greedo shot first.
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:03 AM   #48
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Bump.

This issue needs to be clarified in some way. Personally, I wish Lucas would just let the novels be canon. As it is in his vision it seems Indy did nothing between 1920 and 1935 outside of seducing Marion. Which makes ToD his first adventure.
I find the novels more realistic.
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Old 09-27-2010, 12:25 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiders112390
As it is in his vision it seems Indy did nothing between 1920 and 1935 outside of seducing Marion. Which makes ToD his first adventure.
Plenty of things in the films tell us that 1935 is not his 1st adventure. In "Raiders", Marcus says, "It's like nothing you've ever gone after before." and Indy is called "an obtainer of rare antiquities". One year would seem too short to have that sort of reputation. From "Doom":

1) Indy's weathered clothes
2) Indy's skill & resourcefulness with a whip
3) Indy's knowledge, experience & wariness of booby-traps, finding secret passages, etc.
4) Indy 'found Nurhachi' before the film begins
5) Wu Han says he has followed Indy on 'many adventure'
6) Chatter Lal has heard Dr. Jones' name from studying at Oxford and directly refers to pre-1935 events in Honduras and Madagascar

Even though the "Chronicles" ends in 1920, Lucas had a 'vision' of 2 episodes set in 1921 which were planned to have adventurous themes with Indy on expedition in both stories. (The "Brazil" episode would've contradicted the "Seven Veils" novel.) Excluding the unproduced shows, there's still the hunt for the Eye of the Peacock, the Jackal's head (and the Cross of Coronado).

Without the novels, Lucas' vision was more more like 1921-19?? but, years ago, I remember reading where he talked about the untold gap between the TV series and the movies. He said something like (paraphrasing), "I'll leave it to someone else to tell those stories." (Wish I could find the quote!)

Not quite sure what you mean about 'first adventure'. Do you mean 1st mystical one?
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:08 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Plenty of things in the films tell us that 1935 is not his 1st adventure. In "Raiders", Marcus says, "It's like nothing you've ever gone after before." and Indy is called "an obtainer of rare antiquities". One year would seem too short to have that sort of reputation. From "Doom":

1) Indy's weathered clothes
2) Indy's skill & resourcefulness with a whip
3) Indy's knowledge, experience & wariness of booby-traps, finding secret passages, etc.
4) Indy 'found Nurhachi' before the film begins
5) Wu Han says he has followed Indy on 'many adventure'
6) Chatter Lal has heard Dr. Jones' name from studying at Oxford and directly refers to pre-1935 events in Honduras and Madagascar

Even though the "Chronicles" ends in 1920, Lucas had a 'vision' of 2 episodes set in 1921 which were planned to have adventurous themes with Indy on expedition in both stories. (The "Brazil" episode would've contradicted the "Seven Veils" novel.) Excluding the unproduced shows, there's still the hunt for the Eye of the Peacock, the Jackal's head (and the Cross of Coronado).

Without the novels, Lucas' vision was more more like 1921-19?? but, years ago, I remember reading where he talked about the untold gap between the TV series and the movies. He said something like (paraphrasing), "I'll leave it to someone else to tell those stories." (Wish I could find the quote!)

Not quite sure what you mean about 'first adventure'. Do you mean 1st mystical one?

Nicely put, Stoo.

Raiders began in medias res (in the middle of things). We see the experienced adventurer, who knows to expect the unexpected.

TOD takes us back further in his life, and we're still in the middle of things. Nurhachi's urn seems only like the tip of the iceberg. His experience and expectation really shows when he's hanging on the rope bridge fighting off Mola Ram. It doesn't appear that this is the first time he's dabbled in occult practices, as he speaks the invocation of Shiva with the conviction of a man who expects something to happen.

I haven't read any of the non-filmed novels, but I would have no trouble in putting as many of them into Indy's canonical chronology as would feasibly fit. It is more likely that he had those adventures, than not had them, if you see what I mean!
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