How do we know anything is true?

gabbagabbahey

New member
I'm not asking anything. My original comment was simply a response to the CS thread were I said space aliens are no more far fetched than the god of the bible. From there it sort of took off on it's own.: )

"I can't find a reference in my Bible that says if you pray (and right diligently) for a child to be healed, thus it will be done. Maybe that's in one of the Gnostic gospels."

Christians pray to their god because they be;live that he hears them and (sometimes) answers their prayers. My contention is there is no proof that praying to god is any more effective than praying to Danny Devito (thanks George Carlin!).
 

kongisking

Active member
Exhibit A for why I don't worship God:

The ten plagues of Egypt.

Why?

I don't approve of worshipping a deity that slaughters innocent children just to arm-twist a pharaoh into freeing slaves. You can tell me as much as you like that God is loving, all compassionate, all wise, and so on...and I won't believe it, because of that event. Maybe if God at some point apologized for such sickening cruelty, but if I'm not mistaken, the Bible doesn't have God ever expressing any sort of remorse. Because, hey, he's perfect. You can't mess up if you're perfect. Right?








Right?

And as insurance to keep me from being accused of ranting without relating to Indy, the Ark's portrayal in Raiders is quite accurate to God's attitude. No matter who opens it, they'll get killed for daring to, um, look in it. Wow, this dude's really fond of overreacting.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
kongisking said:
Exhibit A for why I don't worship God:

The ten plagues of Egypt.

Why?

I don't approve of worshipping a deity that slaughters innocent children just to arm-twist a pharaoh into freeing slaves. You can tell me as much as you like that God is loving, all compassionate, all wise, and so on...and I won't believe it, because of that event. Maybe if God at some point apologized for such sickening cruelty, but if I'm not mistaken, the Bible doesn't have God ever expressing any sort of remorse. Because, hey, he's perfect. You can't mess up if you're perfect. Right?








Right?

And as insurance to keep me from being accused of ranting without relating to Indy, the Ark's portrayal in Raiders is quite accurate to God's attitude. No matter who opens it, they'll get killed for daring to, um, look in it. Wow, this dude's really fond of overreacting.


It was a double page spread of animals drowning in the flood in an illustrated Bible I had as a child that started me questioning. That, along with the thought that just because I was being brought up as a Christian didn't mean it was right, since in other families children were being brought up as Hindus, Muslims, Jews etc.

God is an autocrat no different from Hitler, except for maybe the flatulence and bad breath. Hitler demanded people support him, and when they deserted him in 1945 he ordered that the remains of Germany be destroyed.

"God is a thought which makes crooked all that is straight."

Friedrich Nietzsche, "Upon the Blessed Isles", Thus Spoke Zarathustra.


Jesus undoubtedly existed. But he was just a man leading a rebellion. The myths surrounding him can be traced back to earlier times, so he becomes a composite of former belief systems.

It's a mystery how Christianity overcame a multitude of older gods and came to such dominance. But it's been sustained through fear for centuries since.

'God fearing folk'.

The threat of hell to keep you on a certain path. (Suicide was a sin or else the poorest and most abused serfs might simply kill themselves instead of continuing to work for their masters).

The promise of heaven for those who consented.

Organized religion existed to organize and control people. The divine right of monarchs to rule.

Even if it was all true, I'd want no part of it.
 
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gabbagabbahey

New member
Montana Smith said:
God is an autocrat no different from Hitler, except for maybe the flatulence and bad breath. Hitler demanded people support him, and when they deserted him in 1945 he ordered that the remains of Germany be destroyed.

At least if you live in a country ruled by a dictator (like North Korea) you can die to escape. No such luck with an eternal god. He never, ever, ever leaves you alone.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
gabbagabbahey said:
At least if you live in a country ruled by a dictator (like North Korea) you can die to escape. No such luck with an eternal god. He never, ever, ever leaves you alone.

And so it is how man becomes shackled by superstition and fear, and compelled to perpetuate the cycle for the next generation...
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Montana Smith said:
And so it is how man becomes shackled by superstition and fear, and compelled to perpetuate the cycle for the next generation...

In my family the cycle ended with me. My children, ages 12 & 19, are free thinkers. All I have ever asked of them is to think, and explore things for themselves and to reach their own conclusions. Don't automatically believe what anyone else says to you (including me) on face value.

In these discussions of proof of god because believers can never actually provide any concrete proof it always comes back to, "Well, you gotta have faith." Well, sorry, we don't.

They will say "You have faith that the plane you're riding on won't crash, right?"

Actually, no, we don't. We have a reasonable expectation based on actual provable facts that it won't happen. Planes have been tested and retested. Pilots need to have the proper training. Statistically 99+% of flights go as planned and land safely. And you know what we do if they don't? We investigate the crash and try to make changes so that it does not happen again.

On a side note, it is never to late to stop believing. My 67 year old mother, a former lifelong Catholic, has become an atheist in the last few years. She, like many people, had not really thought very deeply about such things. She just believed because her parents did and her parents did because their parents did and so on etc. One day though, she started to actually think about it. And bit by bit, the curtain was pulled back, not revealing a god, but just a funny looking con man just pulling on levers.
 

Montana Smith

Active member
gabbagabbahey said:
In my family the cycle ended with me. My children, ages 12 & 19, are free thinkers. All I have ever asked of them is to think, and explore things for themselves and to reach their own conclusions. Don't automatically believe what anyone else says to you (including me) on face value.

That's the perfect way to approach it.

I question everything, but then I'm naturally cynical as to the motives that lie behind things that are often taken for granted.


gabbagabbahey said:
In these discussions of proof of god because believers can never actually provide any concrete proof it always comes back to, "Well, you gotta have faith." Well, sorry, we don't.

They will say "You have faith that the plane you're riding on won't crash, right?"

Actually, no, we don't. We have a reasonable expectation based on actual provable facts that it won't happen. Planes have been tested and retested. Pilots need to have the proper training. Statistically 99+% of flights go as planned and land safely. And you know what we do if they don't? We investigate the crash and try to make changes so that it does not happen again.

And faith is a thing cannot be argued with. You either have it, or you don't.

I never had it.

gabbagabbahey said:
On a side note, it is never to late to stop believing. My 67 year old mother, a former lifelong Catholic, has become an atheist in the last few years. She, like many people, had not really thought very deeply about such things. She just believed because her parents did and her parents did because their parents did and so on etc. One day though, she started to actually think about it. And bit by bit, the curtain was pulled back, not revealing a god, but just a funny looking con man just pulling on levers.

I'm happy to report that both my parents are now atheists! Very much the same manner of coming to a realization of being duped, albeit through ignorance and good intentions.

My grandmother had been brought up to believe the world was only 6,000 years old! It wasn't until my dad managed to get some sense into her that she began to see how silly that belief was.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Montana Smith said:
And faith is a thing cannot be argued with. You either have it, or you don't.

I never had it.

And what they try to do is switch it back on you and tell you that you are not trying hard enough. Your heart is too hard. You don't have enough faith. That you are selfish and egotistical and denying god because you think you are better than him. They try & put this whole guilt trip on you about being a bad person who hates god.

No. I tried. I was raised Catholic & went to church every Sunday for 18 years. But when I really started to think about it I realized that there was no more actual evidence for a god than there was for mermaids. The funny thing is even the most devote, Christian person you know is also an atheist. They don't believe in Zeus. Or Poseidon. Or that Joseph Smith or Mohammed were actual prophets. They completely understand what it's like to not believe in all of the other gods and prophets. They just can't understand why you don't believe in theirs, even though there is no more evidence for theirs than any of the others.

"Oh, but you don't understand! My god is special! My god is different!"

That's what they all think. What makes you so sure that you are right, and that they are wrong? ;)
 

Finn

Moderator
Staff member
Time to reintroduce this classic gem:

Arguing with a believer is like playing chess with a pigeon. It upturns your pieces and leaves droppings all over the board. Then it flies back to its roost and brags how it won a game of chess.
 

IAdventurer01

Well-known member
gabbagabbahey said:
The funny thing is even the most devote, Christian person you know is also an atheist. They don't believe in Zeus. Or Poseidon. Or that Joseph Smith or Mohammed were actual prophets. They completely understand what it's like to not believe in all of the other gods and prophets. They just can't understand why you don't believe in theirs, even though there is no more evidence for theirs than any of the others.

Well, not really. Everyone one is a heretic, sure, but not an atheist. By definition, an atheist is one who denies the existence of all deities. In my experience, I've met many theists who find it easier to understand someone believing in different deities than none at all. There's definitely a line between not believing in specific gods and not believing in any.
 

The Drifter

New member
Finn said:
Time to reintroduce this classic gem:

Arguing with a believer is like playing chess with a pigeon. It upturns your pieces and leaves droppings all over the board. Then it flies back to its roost and brags how it won a game of chess.

I've met plenty of non-believers that fall into into that analogy.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
IAdventurer01 said:
Well, not really. Everyone one is a heretic, sure, but not an atheist. By definition, an atheist is one who denies the existence of all deities. In my experience, I've met many theists who find it easier to understand someone believing in different deities than none at all. There's definitely a line between not believing in specific gods and not believing in any.


IMO the very word "atheist' is problematic because of the different things it means to different people. It is a loaded word that was only created to label people as immoral or different than the norm. It presupposes that, there is, in fact, a god, and that anyone who does not simply accept this is outside the norm. It shifts the burden of responsibility to the non-believer to "prove" that there is not a god or gods.

People often think atheist means someone who says they know that there is nota god. IMO all the word means is it is someone who has not seen any (strong or verifiable) evidence for it. And no, that does not mean they are agnostic, because that's implying that you feel that it is a 50/50 proposition. Are you agnostic about leprechauns? I mean, you can't prove they don't exist...

What is the word we use for someone who does not believe in magical fairies? How about unicorns? Bigfoot? See what I mean?
 

kongisking

Active member
Lemme share a little story here...

Not long ago, I was taking the light-rail train to the Mall of America to meet up with my girlfriend. While on there, there was this young man who was clearly either drunk out of his mind or severely drugged up, as he could barely stand, talked sluggishly, and was hardly conscious. All throughout the ride, everyone else in the train refused to look at him or speak to him.

Not me.

I saw how crappy the guy looked, and repeatedly offered him my seat to sit and rest, since all other seats were taken and thus forcing him to somehow stand on that rickety, shaking train. He refused my offer, though showed gratitude for my concern, and when we got off the train, I sincerely wished him well and made sure he could get on his bike and ride properly before I went on my way.

I am not religious. I am not in any way a person of faith. I don't believe in the supernatural or paranormal. And yet, I was the only person kind enough to give a damn about this pathetic guy who, for all I know, probably has been really having it rough in life right now. Was he kicked out of his house? Did he lose his job? Does he have a bunch of kids he can't possibly care for? The list can go on endlessly. I have no idea what his situation is. It's entirely likely that he is dead now, probably having overdosed or taken his own life.

But I feel a little better with the knowledge that the poor guy had at least one person show him a bit of compassion. If the reaction of the others on the train was any indication, he probably rarely got that sort of treatment from people. I was putting myself in his situation, and realized that if I was like that, I personally would be hugely desperate for a speck of kindness. Those pretentious, pompous jerks on that train wouldn't even glance at him, or if they did, they probably were staring rudely.

I don't need religion to be a kind and thoughtful person. That's one big mistake of religion: they think if you don't have it, you are automatically somehow 'incomplete' or 'flawed' and cannot truly be a virtuous person. How much you wanna bet those people on that train have some kind of God, and yet couldn't bother to offer a seat to that miserable fellow?

In conclusion: I don't need religion to be a good person. And get very offended when people of faith try to convince me it will do me good.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Head note: Some links in this post will be a link to Bible Gateway. It is an accurate authoritive resource for Biblical citation. That is to say, I'm not paraphrasing, nor including or excluding anything that could be relevant. I say that so as not to mislead anyone.

gabagabahey said:
We have a reasonable expectation based on actual provable facts that it won't happen. Planes have been tested and retested. Pilots need to have the proper training. Statistically 99+% of flights go as planned and land safely. And you know what we do if they don't? We investigate the crash and try to make changes so that it does not happen again.

If you look at the world through a lens of a Biblical world view, this is precisely how it can be known that the Bible and God are as they present Themselves.

Not surprising to me, some of the skeptics who are posting here are also demonstrating a classical Cartesian Doubt. That doubt, for those versed in philosophy, is also uniform to the same Biblical world view. What I usually see happen is that when the Biblical world view comes into focus with an individuals world view, a choice presents itself. The dissonance that that choice reveals becomes the motivation for everything after. In every individual. Self included.

He never, ever, ever leaves you alone.

This is however, slightly askew from what the Bible claims. Hell as it were, is the total separation from God. But I can understand where that dissonance comes from. Unfortunately, many organized religions would have you think otherwise, but as has been pointed out above, that is soley for 'their' control and it is not accurate to the Gospel. In a spot of irony that control is warned about too within the Bible itself. No one usually likes to talk about that, though.

I do.

Finn said:
Arguing with a believer is like playing chess with a pigeon. It upturns your pieces and leaves droppings all over the board. Then it flies back to its roost and brags how it won a game of chess.

Arguing is. I would hope this discussion and discourse, at least to this point is different. No one here is claiming any victory as it were, which I quess is a win for all, up to this post? Or maybe I should say, no one's being moronic yet? which is good?

gabagabahey said:
What is the word we use for someone who does not believe in magical fairies? How about unicorns? Bigfoot?
In philosophy, I believe it's skeptic or a form thereof.
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Separate thoughts for discussion?

Incomprehensibility, Holiness, Sovereignty, Justice, Immutablity, Veracity, Aceity, Righteous...
 

Montana Smith

Active member
Pale Horse said:
Not surprising to me, some of the skeptics who are posting here are also demonstrating a classical Cartesian Doubt.

I doubt, therefore I think. I think, therefore I am.

Descartes came to his own conclusions!

I read a bit of
Blaise Pacal
while composing essays on various subjects. He said some interesting things, but came to his own conclusions as a believer.

Pascal said:
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction.

There's a lot of that going on in the world today, and I suppose it was never any different. Whether He exists or not, men will use whatever leverage they can to get done what they think must be done. For whatever reason is hidden deepest beneath the act itself.


Pale Horse said:
Arguing is. I would hope this discussion and discourse, at least to this point is different. No one here is claiming any victory as it were, which I quess is a win for all, up to this post? Or maybe I should say, no one's being moronic yet? which is good?

History has shown that argument and war has a tendency to increase conviction, rather than erode it. And moronic acts on any side do little for their cause.

But don't go too far away, just in case! ;)
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
I'm of the mindset that these things can be discussed, even in written form, to the betterment of all. I think of the PBS series between Freud and C.S. Lewis. Both men engaging in reasoned discourse t'ween a topic frought with potential minefields.

Will this evolution of TheRaven prove the same as that, or will it go predictably south. We, each of us, will only have ourselves to blame if it does.
 

gabbagabbahey

New member
Pale Horse said:
This is however, slightly askew from what the Bible claims. Hell as it were, is the total separation from God. But I can understand where that dissonance comes from. Unfortunately, many organized religions would have you think otherwise, but as has been pointed out above, that is soley for 'their' control and it is not accurate to the Gospel. In a spot of irony that control is warned about too within the Bible itself. No one usually likes to talk about that, though.

Well, you can't get more bothersome to someone than to damn them to an eternity of torture, whether you are actually present for the festivities or not. : )
 
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