Noahs Ark soon to be discovered?

indyt

Active member
"Religion is faith-based. There are probably some facts, but the majority of religion is that you need to believe in something that cannot be seen or proven. If you are bad you will be punished and if you are good you will be rewarded. Just like Santa Claus. Show me the facts that prove God exists and I will be His biggest worshipper. "

Hello Rick5150. I appreciate your post and that you are serious in your beliefs. I also like your quote above. You are correct, in Christianity you have to believe in something you cannot see. This,as you know because you seem to be a knowledgable person, is faith. We must have faith in order to please God. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then Christ said BLESSED are those who believe and do not see. There is a spirit world that you cannot see. It makes you stronger to believe in something you cannot see.
I love your last quote about being His biggest worshipper if He is proved real; and that is why I am responding. I can give proof for His existence and may in future posts. I do not want you to think I am one who throws a bunch of info at you and expect you to accept it. I want you to believe, but that is something that must be reached on your own. The biggest proof that there is a God is that the universe exists. Even if there was a big bang, it had to come from somewhere. Biology teaches that life comes from life. There had to be something to create the big bang or the gases that caused it. Matter cannot come from non-existence. The only explanation is that it had to come from something that has existed forever, God. I say this not to get into anarugmentative debate, I believe we should discuss things on this board in a friendly matter;I do it for discussion and in hopes that you will believe. If you do or dont, I still would have concern for you regardless. Again, thank you for your post and hope we can discuss the matter in the future.:)
 

Rick5150

New member
?Indyt? said:
Hello Rick5150. I appreciate your post and that you are serious in your beliefs. I also like your quote above. You are correct, in Christianity you have to believe in something you cannot see. This,as you know because you seem to be a knowledgable person, is faith. We must have faith in order to please God. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he saw, then Christ said BLESSED are those who believe and do not see. There is a spirit world that you cannot see. It makes you stronger to believe in something you cannot see.

Thank you for your post. Remember, I mentioned I am an agnostic, not an athiest. I believe that there is something better than us, and I am open to anyone who can prove that to me. Faith comes in many forms. What makes your faith the correct faith? There are religions that worship multiple Gods. Are they wrong? Have you ever seen this quote?

?I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.?

It makes a good deal of sense on some level. I am just not an atheist. ;)

?Indyt? said:
I love your last quote about being His biggest worshipper if He is proved real; and that is why I am responding. I can give proof for His existence and may in future posts. I do not want you to think I am one who throws a bunch of info at you and expect you to accept it. I want you to believe, but that is something that must be reached on your own. The biggest proof that there is a God is that the universe exists.

With all due respect, how can you possibly offer proof of God where millions of truly great minds have failed? The only thing equally as difficult as you proving that God exists is me proving He does not.

?Indyt? said:
Even if there was a big bang, it had to come from somewhere. Biology teaches that life comes from life. There had to be something to create the big bang or the gases that caused it. Matter cannot come from non-existence. The only explanation is that it had to come from something that has existed forever, God. I say this not to get into anarugmentative debate, I believe we should discuss things on this board in a friendly matter;I do it for discussion and in hopes that you will believe. If you do or dont, I still would have concern for you regardless. Again, thank you for your post and hope we can discuss the matter in the future.

Throughout the years, science has proven how many things were created. Many of these things that were thought to be miracles and evil spirits in the past, now have distinct causes, such as viruses and bacteria. We continue to learn and as we do, the Bible slowly holds less merit. It is all interpretation. Jesus walked on water. Yeah right. But if Jesus walked on ice ? which is also water ? no problem. It is nowhere near as dramatic though.

It is still THE book to beat as the original book of values. The Ten Commandments are a great start. Without them, nothing would stop the human race from killing itself as we raped and pillaged and killed each other until we cease to be. The problem is your own God cannot follow the rules. How many deaths is HE responsible for? He created us, yet every single one of us dies. That is not counting the ones where He really went out of his way for, such as drowning of everything that was not on the Ark, drownings in the Red Sea (although Moses had a hand in it, I suppose) and even turning folks into a pillar of salt.

I always find these arguments akin to the three-year old child who keeps asking ?why?? each time you tell him something, until you finally reach a point where you have no answer (or refuse to continue answering). I am in no way trying to compare you to a three-year old, it is just the same thing to me when science shows up how something happens. The religious ask, well where did it come from? Science finds an answer. Religion asks ?yeah, but where did that come from?? and it continues until finally there is no answer.

The difference is that science is moving ahead in leaps and bounds. We continue to learn more about virtually everything each day where religion is often satisfied by the notion that all was created by a supreme being. Imagine what a world it would be if we just allowed things to happen and called it God?s will. Your baby is very sick. Science has medication that can cure it? Who will you trust? Most people tend to go for the medication and cure their child. Then the religious step in and say that God allowed the scientist to find a cure. People tend to believe in what they need to believe.

It is a battle that we all fight every day. Wars are waged over religions where people are killing each other based on their faiths. Thou shalt not kill, but that goes right out the window as needed. Weird world, huh?

Indyt, it has been a pleasure discussing this with you. Thanks for that opportunity.
 

indyt

Active member
ClintonHammond said:
"I can give proof for His existence"

Oh no you can't....

Cause there IS no such 'proof'

CH, I have a question. And this is not to try to be nosy or disrespectful. Usually your posts (that I have read), seem hostile when God is mentioned. I was just curious to know if you have ever had a bad experience in your past in regards to religion or something. Again, this is not a post to strike at you, and you certainly are not obligated to respond.
 
I'm VERY anti-religion... I see it as, at best a tool of though control, and at worst it's a very dangerous WMD...

If I had my way, all religion would be forever banned for the good of the human race...

Bearing in mind that I make the distinction between Religion and faith... The latter I happen to think is very cool... Very personal, but very cool...

"bad experience in your past"
In my book, all experiences concerning organized religion are bad...
 

indyt

Active member
I admit I agree with you as far as organized religion is concerned, to a point. I dont like it either. I cant stand hyprocrites, churches that turn into businesses, politics in the church, etc. In fact, I dont afficliate myself with "religion". I am not one to say that my "religion" is Christianity. I dont like the word. Yes, I am a Christian, a concervative, evangelical one at that. The difference is RELATIONSHIP. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. That is all that it is about. Not a set of dos and donts, but being part of a family; having the opportunity to KNOW, love and be loved by the Creator of the universe. Christianity is not something to control someone. We all have our own will. God does not make anyone accept Him and never will. It is up to the individual. I do not attempt to spread the gospel because I am going to get a reward or something. I do it so that everyone else can live a joyful and abundant life, and eventually receive eternal life. I get nothing out of this; accept the fact that others are saved.

But getting back to organized religion, I believe America, as well as other nations have strayed from what "religion" or this "relationship" was intended to be.
 

Rick5150

New member
What is the difference between doing the best you can in life for yourself and your personal values, or doing it because a religion expects you to? What if you did everything by the word of the Lord, but you didn't do it on purpose. You were just really nice.:) Compare that to the avid churchgoer who knows the Bible inside and out and has moments of weakness. Is one better than the other?

Many people I speak to claim they go to church each week for a number of reasons. Some of them valid, but others are completely silly. One is the fear of going to hell. Another is it is a good insurance policy. Why risk your soul when you could be a good churchgoer? They make sure that they give during the collection, because we all know they are better people in God's eyes if they donate more money.

When fear and insurance are your reasons, you should start to rethink what you are doing, take a step back and think whether or not it makes sense to you. If so, go with it.

And be careful. There are many people who claim they can talk to God or that God has spoken to them. Usually they are sitting in towers taking shots at innocent people or in straight jackets.

I believe in faith, but also reality, fact and proof. If your belief in God makes you a better person, than I am happy you have found what you are looking for. But take charge of your life and take responsibility for your actions. Also take credit when you do something right. You do not need to thank God, unless you blame him when things go wrong as well. ;)
 
"We cannot afford to take mythology at face value...."

Or... to paraphrase a very good 'debunking The Da Vinci Code' kinda show last night...

"There is history and there is imagination... One cannot pretend that one is ever the other..."

It's just as applicable a rule here...
 
Or that the "Holy Grail' is more than just the product of early medieval romantic fiction....

Or that pyramids will keep razor-blades sharp (Mythbusted!)

Or that sucking a penny will help you beat the breathalizer....

Good fiction, all... but fiction is all they are...
 

roundshort

Active member
Really, I like Arizona, and i always thought it lacked water, but if you have ocean front . . . well maybe we should talk.
As I have not read the bible, was the Noah Story before or after Jack went up the beanstock?
 

roundshort

Active member
Oh yes the evil Dragon of Herpes . . . At least he only showed up a few times a year and now with new medical treatment . . .
 
They HAVE to believe... cause if they don't believe that ONE story, it calls into question all the other stories in their book.... and if they have to question the stories in their book, they might have to start thinking for themselves...
 

roundshort

Active member
That bible book seems to be full of all kind of crazy stories, do you think it actauly started as like the tabloid of the day and some just collected all the best stories, like todays bile would be a bunch of junk like Michael Jackson is an alien, Madonna is a man type stories? Anyone?
 

Rick5150

New member
temple of john said:
I think more likely they were used as stories to show morality and the consequences of disobeying God. I also believe the Catholic church has had a heavy hand in many of these stories.

Exactly! If there was not fear of consequences, where would the human race be? And people are falling for it because the Catholics were very good at making up stories. What is happening to the Catholic churches now that the priests are getting caught with their pants down everywhere? I have heard radio ads to "please come back and give the Catholic church another chance."

Many people are moving away from the Catholic religion due to this. The funny thing is that they have been so brainwashed throughout their lives that they move into another religion. Nobody seems to ask themselves why the very people who are supposed to be spreading the word of God do not seem to have a fear of that God. Is diddling young boys worth Eternal Damnation?

I can tell you why. He doesn't exist and they know it. Not in the sense that the Bible depicts Him as anyways.

It is, and always has been, about the money. I am stunned that people fall for the "rewards in heaven" line as well. Nobody can prove it, since you have to die to find out if it is true. The greatest deception ever and we are falling for it. If anyone has any money to lend me, I promise I will pay it back tenfold once we get to heaven. Any takers?
 

Pale Horse

Moderator
Staff member
Are there any theologians here who are dismissing the Bible? I know that Clinton and Rick probably fall into the category of those who have actually read the book, and are therefore qualified to question any or all of it.

The rest of you dismiss it and it's content because you have no capacity to actually discipline yourselves to better who you are by reading someone elses writings (whether you agree with it or not) and actually forming an intelligent thought about what you read.

To prove my point, what is the book of Ruth about? Can anyone tell me the historical significance of the minor prophets as it realtes to the timeline of the Jews and the land of Isreal? How are the book of Daniel and Ezekiel related? These are far simplier things to discuss and actually have a real-world application for what is happening today in the middle east, (especially when you consider that there is an entire nation whose history is summed up in the context of the Bible) and yet, none of our Bible dismissing scholars here would be able to take that knowledge and use it in a global business setting because they think it (the Bible) as a farse.

"It can't be legit because I can't wrap my finite mind around it." This is such a powerful arguement. Wow, so martial art's don't work because you can't tell me the sound of one hand clapping? Just because something is incomprehendable, doesn't mean it isn't true. Just as many have said there are "stories" in the Bible that can't be proved, no one can prove them fasle, either. Hence the arguement of faith that was touched on earlier. Now I know I will take flak for this, for I am being too fundamental, but there are some here that think nothing of p***ing on another mans faith. To me that's an outright insult. You want to discuss differences in opinion about sensitive issues, then take a page from the example of Rick. Form a well thought out response and challenge your audience with an actual statement. I'll even take the cynicism of a Clinton Hammond because he doesn't insult people. But if you are going to continue to participate in this thread, take the above to heed.

As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

EDIT: Spelling
 

Rick5150

New member
Pale Horse said:
As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

Point taken.

I was trying to make an argument that if the people who are supposed to be passing the word of God to others cannot follow the basic principles and values of the Bible, how can they seriously expect us to? The "Do as I say, not as I do" attitude may work in a parent/child relationship, but holds little value in a peer-to-peer setting.

If your stockbroker told you to invest your money in a specific stock and then put his own cash elsewhere, it would raise your eyebrows, right? What does he know that he is not telling you?

There are people who are taking stories that our Bible borrowed from other cultures and treating them as fact. Some of us ask "why" or "how" when the rest just accept what they are told.

Someone of the caliber of a Catholic priest should know the consequences of his actions and especially his sins. Almost as literal a translation of "practice what you preach" as you can get. Yet more and more priests are becoming involved in this scandal. There has to be a reason for this. And why only Catholics?

Pale Horse said:
...and yet, none of our Bible dismissing scholars here would be able to take that knowledge and use it in a global business setting because they think it (the Bible) as a farse.

While I do not fall into the category of "Bible-dismissing" there has to be a measure of common sense that one should practice. The Good Book has a lot to offer if you do not take the impossible stories and situations as literal. It very well be the most important book ever written. That does not make it fact though.

My problem is that I cannot understand how people can stick by some of the happenings in the Bible as being fact, even presented with evidence to the contrary. I think the article on Noah's Ark I linked above has some compelling arguments against the literal Bible story. Not to mention that with all the insects, how do you separate them into one male and one female? But you cannot take it literally.

Maybe there was a local flood. Maybe Noah built an ark and put two of each animal he could find on it. What is believed to be true may be a matter of perception. It may have seemed like the world flooded. At least Noah's world did.
 

Deadlock

New member
With the arrival of Pale Horse on the scene, I guess it's time for me to join the fray...

Pale Horse said:
As for the Church (and by that I mean the Catholic Chruch), we have to be careful we don't lump the sins of the church into the teaching of the Bible. The abuse of alter boys is a horrid scar that hides the true ethics and moral found inside it's covers. That is one reason that Freemasonry has facinated me so. As part of it's foundation, there is a contempt of the church as a religious institution, for all of it's money and misused power. I know there are Catholic's here so I will wait for some comments from them before continuing.

A quote comes to mind: “You who are without sin, cast the first stone.”

I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church doesn't have the corner on the market for abuses perpetrated by religions (not to mention governments or nations). I shall not enumerate, but I’m sure all of us can think of examples. If you look at the world from a Christian (Protestant or Catholic) standpoint, the fundamental starting point is the premise that man is a fallen creature. Whether you put any stock in the particulars of the account of the Garden of Eden or not, I think that we can agree (even those outside of Christian beliefs) that man has inclinations towards some pretty bad stuff.

So, if we start with the biblical starting point that nobody’s perfect, or, to put it in biblical terms: “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”... I don’t see why anybody should be truly shocked when an institution populated by human beings fails (and sometimes quite dramatically). I’m not saying that that makes it okay, or that we should tolerate depravity and hypocrisy from those who claim to be servants of God. What I am saying is that as long as human beings are involved, nothing will be perfect. Nothing. No religion, no philosophy, no government, no relationship, no enlightenment.

If you are steering clear of religion because you refuse to be part of something that isn’t perfect... you’ll never be a part of anything. Hell... you can’t even be by yourself.

I believe in the need for redemption. If we were capable of being perfect by our own power, we wouldn’t need saving. (Which is, last time I checked... a major theme in Christianity. ;))
 
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roundshort

Active member
A funny story, we were contacted by a group of catholics to do a charity dinner, they wanted to pay full ticket, which was about $200 a person less then we would charge, so they wanted us to donate $200 per person times 40 people. So we asked, what is the Chairty for, and they answered with a straight face, abused boys . . .

So we all tried to keep a straight face, that the Catholic Church, one of if not the richest religion in the world was asking a small family owned business to donate over $10,000 (this is the dinner plus some auction items) for abused boys that they probably abused int he first place . . .

yes I agree all the qualified people who read the bibles them abuse boys I think they are called priests, I recommend the episode of South Park called Red Hot Catholic Love for reference.


Pale, a preachy today I see. I will take my masters and disagree what I want to and i do not need to be told what i am qualified to disagree with, thank you
 

roundshort

Active member
So How about Evolution, I mean really the whole 7 days thing, I have issue with that, I like to think we are all from Apes, it is very comforting!
 
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