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Old 06-28-2009, 09:29 PM   #26
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Off topic, but Glengarry Glen Ross (or "G.G.R." or "Grrr!" as I call it) is awesome! In any case, great post, 'Tilla.
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
No, not really. Art isn't supposed to be a some sort of wellness spa or therapy session.

And there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, no, but when there was already commentary about how it was such a good time to make it and how it was "for the fans," you can't help but get the impression that their aims weren't as high as they might have been, and there wasn't as much seriousness of purpose as there ought to have been.

I spend a lot of time directing plays. I also very much enjoy the people I work with. But that's not why I work with them, and while the bits of downtime there are are one thing, once a rehearsal starts, there's a real level of seriousness that's required. And I'm not doing avant-garde stuff either - Glengarry Glen Ross, 12 Angry Men - they're fun plays, including substantial comedy. But they're also deeply serious. And you are doing a discredit to the work and to your audience if you undertake carelessly, and if you ever make any decisions purely for your own enjoyment. You've got to create a coherent piece, and that can be your only goal.

I enjoyed the fourth film. It had a lot of good stuff in it, but there was a much better film struggling to get out. There were those moments that were dreck, that were careless, that should have had 15 minutes where they said, "do we really think this is the right moment? Does this feel real enough? Does this fit into the world we've created?"

No, having the director's daughter in there doesn't bother me, as a single thing. But it's indicative of an entire approach that bothers me.
Couldn't put it better myself
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Old 06-29-2009, 02:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
No, not really. Art isn't supposed to be a some sort of wellness spa or therapy session.

And there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, no, but when there was already commentary about how it was such a good time to make it and how it was "for the fans," you can't help but get the impression that their aims weren't as high as they might have been, and there wasn't as much seriousness of purpose as there ought to have been.

I spend a lot of time directing plays. I also very much enjoy the people I work with. But that's not why I work with them, and while the bits of downtime there are are one thing, once a rehearsal starts, there's a real level of seriousness that's required. And I'm not doing avant-garde stuff either - Glengarry Glen Ross, 12 Angry Men - they're fun plays, including substantial comedy. But they're also deeply serious. And you are doing a discredit to the work and to your audience if you undertake carelessly, and if you ever make any decisions purely for your own enjoyment. You've got to create a coherent piece, and that can be your only goal.

I enjoyed the fourth film. It had a lot of good stuff in it, but there was a much better film struggling to get out. There were those moments that were dreck, that were careless, that should have had 15 minutes where they said, "do we really think this is the right moment? Does this feel real enough? Does this fit into the world we've created?"

No, having the director's daughter in there doesn't bother me, as a single thing. But it's indicative of an entire approach that bothers me.

Actually I'd disagree.

If we agree that there is this thing called "art", then we must have some general consensus on how that "art" is both created and experienced. Personally, I feel that “art" (as a social construct) is a result of a creative process... and ultimately the more of one’s self that is put into the process, the greater the perceived artistic experience is. If one uses the production of art as "therapy", then so be it. As an aesthetic, I’d posit that the artists experience is more fundamental than the audiences (although clearly there is some level of mutual satisfaction that needs to take place when discussing art in commercial terms).

Of course movie making can be a much more collaborative process than other art forms such as fine art... but those same sensibilities still exist. If Spielberg gets an aesthetic/artistic experience out of making a more lightweight/fun movie, I don’t feel that makes it any less. We, the audience/consumer, may prefer a “deeper” more meaningful piece, but that doesn’t/shouldn’t detract from the artist’s personal aesthetic and objective.

Artists have been employing friends and family for hundreds of years… I don’t think it’s symptomatic of any degradation of art, but rather, it’s simply an additional control mechanism for the artist. I’d much rather employ people I know.

A movie director does owe something to the material, and I’d agree that there is a more substantial movie in KOTCS “struggling to come out”... but I think that applies equally to all three Indy sequels. What I would say is that KOTCS is more schizophrenic than any of the others. It appears to flit between the serious and the lightweight much more often… and as a result, never gets that balance quite right. I would imagine that this is borne out of Lucas/Spielberg simply wanting the best of both worlds, rather than a lack of “seriousness of purpose”.

I don’t for a second believe that we exist in a world where “art”, and the artistic experience, cannot be achieved as a result of “fun”… which for Lucas/Spielberg, was clearly a primary aim i.e. to enjoy the process of making another Indy movie. I see no evidence of cynicism on their part, other than returning to a franchise that was guaranteed some measure of success. I'm sure they even feel that they put the same amount of leg work in (even if we know there wasn't the same amount of overseas location shooting).
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:01 AM   #29
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Or Spielberg just gave his daughter a very small roll in Indiana Jones 4 because he can and or wanted to.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:53 AM   #30
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By the way, Sasha wasn't the get a 'role' in the movie because he was related to someone. The kid asking advice from Indy in the library was Tom Hanks' son, Chet Hanks. In case you wish for a chance for some extended disapproval of nepotism.


Also, there's this persistent rumor that The Raven's mods had bit parts as Ugha warriors, but take that one with a grain of salt.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:30 AM   #31
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Get off Sahsha's back! She earned that role. She's done a lot on her own! Look at her filmography!

The same way as her mother no doubt...

Look at what Capshaw did with the springboard of a summer blockbuster!

Oh and she has her fathers nose which makes it even more funny that she's all sock hopped out in a malt shop in waspy new england...THAT was more unbelieveable then aliens!
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
No, not really. Art isn't supposed to be a some sort of wellness spa or therapy session.

I disagree, even if you're just speaking narrowly about film and plays. Art is many things, and among those it is a medium for discharging your tensions and general energy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila the Professor
And you are doing a discredit to the work and to your audience ... if you ever make any decisions purely for your own enjoyment. You've got to create a coherent piece, and that can be your only goal.

Again, are you speaking only in regard to plays? I beg to differ. Art is supposed to be a product of yourself and what you are, it shouldn't be based on what others want. The creative process is varied from individual to individual.
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Old 07-01-2009, 05:03 AM   #33
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For some great ideas about art, read the preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde.

Oh, and Sasha is cute. And good luck to her for her connections. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Question is, will she appear in Indy 5?

Last edited by Mickiana : 07-01-2009 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 08:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
For some great ideas about art, read the preface to The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde.

Some, to be sure...not all.

"All art is quite useless."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiana
Oh, and Sasha is cute.

To each his own...God makes em God matches em.

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Originally Posted by Mickiana
And good luck to her for her connections. It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Really? After recommending Oscar Wilde you go cliché?



I
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Oh and she has her fathers nose which makes it even more funny that she's all sock hopped out in a malt shop in waspy new england...THAT was more unbelieveable then aliens!
Rocket...oh, nevermind...I'll just pretend I didn't read that...

Her character, "Slugger", actually has dialogue which can be heard quite well with a decent sound system or pair of headphones. Plus, I agree with Lance and others that Sasha is a fox.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Stoo
Rocket...oh, nevermind...I'll just pretend I didn't read that...

To quote Rodney..."No Offence".

Really, I'm just going for the joke...but have you been to New Haven!?!

To quote a recent post, my comment was just like Temple of Doom: there was no emotional investment. It was gratuitous, empty...simply fun to scoff at.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
To quote Rodney..."No Offence".

Hey, great! So all you have to do when you say something really offensive is to later tack on a wholly insincere "no offense" and all's forgiven, eh?

Wow, great strategy.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:14 PM   #38
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Yah, i heard that and Geogre lucas and his whole family is in revenge of the sith in the senate
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:18 PM   #39
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Hey, great! So all you have to do when you say something really offensive is to later tack on a wholly insincere "no offense" and all's forgiven, eh?Wow, great strategy.

If you KNEW the context of the quote, you might realize I wasn't ASKING for forgiveness.

Lancey Lancey Lancey, saying she has her fathers nose is only offensive because you think it's so. Don't force your racist ideas onto my post. If I said something was as odd as putting Malcom X into KKK Gear, I'm pointing out an inconsistant and unlikely juxtaposition,not endorsing a moral point of viewor argument.

Unfortunately it is YOU who is taking this on your own sordid tangent, (and Stoo who is alluding to it, giving it undue exposure without commenting). Way to take the bait!

Last edited by Rocket Surgeon : 07-01-2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:03 PM   #40
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[quote=Rocket Surgeon]If you KNEW the context of the quote, you might realize I wasn't ASKING for forgiveness.
Quote:

Um, duh. I thought it was fairly obvious from my comments that I knew you were being insincere. Hence my use of the word "insincere."

[quote
Way to take the bait!

"Take the bait"? I called you out on something offensive you said. I doing so I took your "bait"...so I guess you WERE trying to be offensive. Okay, thanks for the clarification!

Quote:
Don't force your racist ideas onto my post.

Ah, the classic "I know you are but what am I?" gambit. Brilliant! Once again, I have been wholly outmaneuvered.

p.s. the Jewish population of New Haven in the Fifties was 20,000.

The known population of aliens on planet earth from 1950 to present is still hovering at around zero.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
Um, duh
Ah, the smartest think you've said all day...AND worthwhile!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
I thought it was fairly obvious from my comments that I knew you were being insincere. Hence my use of the word "insincere."
And I thought I was being blunt about not asking for forgiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
"Take the bait"? I called you out on something offensive you said. I doing so I took your "bait"...so I guess you WERE trying to be offensive. Okay, thanks for the clarification!
Read, comprehend...if you can't ASK questions.
The bait was Stoo's...to bring attention to a fraction of a post WAY down the line and abandon a "line of thought" without clarification, leaving any lurking retard to twist it out of context. Yeah, way to take the bait!

Have I clarified it enough for you or must you be spoon fed EVERYTHING?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
Ah, the classic "I know you are but what am I?" gambit. Brilliant! Once again, I have been wholly outmaneuvered.

You bring to the conversation SO much baggage! Such much for you if you can't comprehend sentence structure and composition. It's plain to read, and your gross over simplification is par for the course. Outmanuvered! That's funny!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
p.s. the Jewish population of New Haven in the Fifties was 20,000.The known population of aliens on planet earth from 1950 to present is still hovering at around zero.

And the known population of retards with chips on their shoulders is Lance Quazar.

Now THAT was offensive, (to retards! )

Get grip and get back to class...review context v content.

Oh, and seething only leads to drooling...you should quit that now too.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
I didn't like the movie, but I liked the scene she was in. She was funny for all of her 4 seconds of screen time.

And, you know, hot.

Yeah, she is quite a cutie, isn't she?
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:25 PM   #43
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So having the director's daughter in the movie simply equals a lack of quality filmmaking? Your just talking pure nonsense now.

By this account, Rocky isn't a high-quality movie as Stallone had his brother and father appear in the movie. And Scorsese must be a lousy filmmaker as well, why couldn't he bother to cast older extras instead of casting his parents in "Goodfellas". The list goes on.

I don't see anything vastly wrong with casting family members, especially when they're basically small cameos. Isn't that what filmmaking about? Expressing your personal self and experiences onto film?

I couldn't agree more, Eye. You're right this time! But watch your back...
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:48 AM   #44
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Dear Rocket Surgeon,

"All art is quite useless." is a gem, don't you think? I do, as I do all his insights in that preface.

Not wanting to offend any religious sensibilities on anyones' part, but god didn't make anyone, nor match them, as there is no god. Full admission: I am atheist, but not agnostic. I find Sasha is cute to look at and I liked her spunky role she played at her father's behest.

I don't express myself very well. When I said "It's who you know, not what you know", I thought it might be taken as a touch of irony, whilst retaining the literal application it makes to the world we make to live in. A cliche is a phrase that is overused and indeed that phrase is overused. But it still contains some spark of truth, doesn't it?

"The only thing I can't resist is temptation." O.W.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
Dear Rocket Surgeon,

"All art is quite useless." is a gem, don't you think? I do, as I do all his insights in that preface.

Not wanting to offend any religious sensibilities on anyones' part, but god didn't make anyone, nor match them, as there is no god. Full admission: I am atheist, but not agnostic. I find Sasha is cute to look at and I liked her spunky role she played at her father's behest.

I don't express myself very well. When I said "It's who you know, not what you know", I thought it might be taken as a touch of irony, whilst retaining the literal application it makes to the world we make to live in. A cliche is a phrase that is overused and indeed that phrase is overused. But it still contains some spark of truth, doesn't it?

"The only thing I can't resist is temptation." O.W.
Hey Mick!
It's a bit too fatalistic for me! But shows you where his head is at! The best thing about the preface is it gives you great context to consider while reading his story. Right now I'm reading the "New"Annotated Dracula and it's full of contextual gems.

God is a tricky subject and I appreciate your disclaimer, as someone who appreciates Socrates direction all I can say is "I don't know", but I'm open to the possibility. To me,for now, the term "God" represents the unknown. God has inspired some of the greatest art and "humanitarian initiatives"(to quote another post) that it's difficult to be against such a possitive influence. (Not to be confused with those who will pervert the status of "God" for their own evil ends).

I've seen pictures where Sacha looks cute,and pictures where she looks heinous, (but that's true for us all I'd say)...as far as her contribution to Crystal Skull, she was serviceable. If I were a betting man I'd wager she lobbied for the role.

By it's definition there's truth because it's predictable behavior,(among other things).My tone was irony as well as you started with, well I'll SAY; obscure and puntuated with, well; cliché!

No offence!
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:20 AM   #46
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There was no offence taken, Rocket Surgeon. Like I said, I don't express myself very well. You said it better with saying "I don't know." I am prone to making bald statements due to rebellion in me since I shed my religious ways earlier in life, which I haven't gotten over I suppose.

Yes, Oscar's preface does give context to the story and he seems to keep offering similar insights throughout, sort of like little pearls of wisdom.

As for Sasha, well, the only pics of her I've seen are to do with her KotCS efforts. And you are right about all of us being capable of looking good or bad in a photo. All my ID photos look like prison mug shots. Even in my Indygear I will never be mistaken for Harrison. Oh well...
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Old 07-03-2009, 04:27 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Really, I'm just going for the joke...but have you been to New Haven!?!
Sort of. I once stopped for gas there driving from Boston en route to NYC. Does that count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
The bait was Stoo's...to bring attention to a fraction of a post WAY down the line and abandon a "line of thought" without clarification, leaving any lurking retard to twist it out of context. Yeah, way to take the bait!
4 posts back is "WAY down the line"? Plus, the other 2/3rds of your post weren't worth commenting on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Lancey Lancey Lancey, saying she has her fathers nose is only offensive because you think it's so. Don't force your racist ideas onto my post.
Indeed, she has her father's nose. That is obvious but...because I have a Phil Hartman-type of unfrozen, caveman brain, please tell me what Sasha's nose has to do with the absurdity of Slugger's presence in Connecticut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Quazar
p.s. the Jewish population of New Haven in the Fifties was 20,000.

The known population of aliens on planet earth from 1950 to present is still hovering at around zero.
Thanks for the good chuckle, Lance.
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Old 07-03-2009, 05:01 PM   #48
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Sort of. I once stopped for gas there driving from Boston en route to NYC. Does that count?
Well, no, an abacus counts.

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Originally Posted by Stoo
4 posts back is "WAY down the line"? Plus, the other 2/3rds of your post weren't worth commenting on.
In a manner of saying, yes and no. No, if you count on an abacus...yes if there's better posts to discuss.
As far as water under the bridge, we had begun reflecting on Oscar Wilde and the usefulness of art...
If indeed it's a matter of worthiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo
Indeed, she has her father's nose. That is obvious but...because I have a Phil Hartman-type of unfrozen, caveman brain, please tell me what Sasha's nose has to do with the absurdity of Slugger's presence in Connecticut.
In service of comparing and contrasting...because it's decidedly NOT waspy?
Love Caveman Lawyer!
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Old 07-03-2009, 05:45 PM   #49
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Does anyone know just how low the quota set the limit for number or percentage of Jewish students at Yale, incidentally? That would seem to be a relevant stat here. (The quotas were lifted in the 1960s, incidentally.)
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Old 07-03-2009, 06:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rocket Surgeon
Oh and she has her fathers nose which makes it even more funny that she's all sock hopped out in a malt shop in waspy new england...THAT was more unbelieveable then aliens!

Basically what you are saying is that Sasha looks stereotypically Jewish, and Jews are out of place in New England, right?

Assuming that is what you meant, then the second part is not racist in my view. If I say that a black man looks out of place in Montana, I'm not being racist, I'm stating a fact, since blacks make up less than 1% of the population there.

However, your implication that the size or shape of her nose dictates her ethnic heritage is a little racist, don't you think? I'm sure we've all been guilty of telling an off-color joke or two, but let's be honest about the jokes we make.

On the topic of her being hot, I think she looks a little too much like her dad, which creeps me out, much in the same way that I don't find Janet Jackson hot because every time I look at her face I see Michael, circa 1984.
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