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Old 12-20-2009, 12:00 AM   #101
Montana Smith
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Originally Posted by kongisking
A most touching post. Good work.

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Originally Posted by Morning Bell
You bring up some good points and I have some similar feelings. KOTCS feels like a natural and rational progression of Indy's life and it finally finds him coming to terms with things that he's been missing/avoiding for so long. If they do Indy V I would like to see these themes continue, although I would still like Indy to be the main focus. The series has always built on Indy's character and forced him to make difficult decisions, not just about himself but for others and bringing Marion and a son into the picture seemed like the next logical step, at least in my view.

Thank you for the positive comments. Sometimes it feels like I'm struggling upstream against a strong current to explain why KOTCS feels right to me.

The film has truly angered some for many reasons, not least the 'alien' nature of the Inter-Dimensionals, the extreme nature of the fridge scene, and for other story and technical reasons. But on the whole, what I posted earlier sums up my view of the four Indiana Jones films as an inter-connecting and developing series, rather than four unrelated stories.

I don't regard any of the films as 'perfect', as there are always things that, with hindsight, can be improved on. No writer or film-maker probably ever views their creations as perfect - which is one of the reasons Lucas made special editions of the original Star Wars trilogy, and why he edited out the glass reflection in the Raiders cobra scene.

However, in spite of their imperfections, the over-riding factor is the character of Indy, his adventures, and the world that he inhabits. This was brought to the screen so wonderfully by the combination of great acting, direction, scriptwork, set design, music, and everything else that went into their production.

To really enjoy all four films, even including aliens and fridges, you have to immerse yourself in Indy's world, cast aside your preconceptions of the real world. The world of Indy is one of high adventure and of opportunity. If it wasn't, then we might as well watch a soap opera (which would be my personal vision of hell!) It's not so much the need to suspend belief, but rather, to believe in the world of Indy, that his world operates by its own consistent logic. To that effect, surviving a blast in a fridge in our own world bears the remotest chance of success, but in the world of Indy it's entirely plausible.
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Old 12-27-2009, 06:30 PM   #102
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Darth, you asked before if Indiana Jones was ever really dark and gritty? It seems to me Raiders was definitely that and that, in comparison, KotCS was not as much. ToD also seems very dark to me. A huge subterranean cult that worships an evil god, forcibly drinks intoxicating blood, rips hearts out and lowers victims into lava?! Just look at the amount of carnage in the opening scenes of Raiders. The whole of Raiders had heart stopping moments of Indy jumping out of one trap to fall into the next. Real, threatening traps. The impaling of Satipo and Barranca with his back full of darts, each one weeping obviously due to a poison reaction. Very in your face. Now that's dark, even if there is a comical element accompanying the scenes.

I suppose the nuclear bomb was a type of trap that Indy had to get out of, but it wasn't intended to be a trap by the military testing the bomb. Indy just happened to stumble into the area. Look at Indy's intention to get through traps he knew were there in Raiders.

Scenes in KotCS were like feeble re dos of Raiders. When Mutt and Indy were in the graveyard catacombs, what was going on with that big moving disc? It didn't seem threatening or challenging. It just rocked a bit back and forth. It was such a waste. Whatever the significance was, it was lost on me. And those guys who protected the graveyard could do martial arts like Bruce Lee and only spat darts. They spent most of the time jumping around like rabbits, being mostly annoying. When Indy blows the dart back into the guys mouth, do we assume the dart is sharpened and tipped with poison on both ends or else it could not have worked? And then he just points the gun. Why didn't he let one shot off? It would have been more exciting and more threatening. He just stood there unscathed, unworried and nonchalant.

The thing is, I know why the makers did it this way, but it's just such a damned disappointment.
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
Darth, you asked before if Indiana Jones was ever really dark and gritty? It seems to me Raiders was definitely that and that, in comparison, KotCS was not as much. ToD also seems very dark to me. A huge subterranean cult that worships an evil god, forcibly drinks intoxicating blood, rips hearts out and lowers victims into lava?! Just look at the amount of carnage in the opening scenes of Raiders. The whole of Raiders had heart stopping moments of Indy jumping out of one trap to fall into the next. Real, threatening traps. The impaling of Satipo and Barranca with his back full of darts, each one weeping obviously due to a poison reaction. Very in your face. Now that's dark, even if there is a comical element accompanying the scenes.

I suppose the nuclear bomb was a type of trap that Indy had to get out of, but it wasn't intended to be a trap by the military testing the bomb. Indy just happened to stumble into the area. Look at Indy's intention to get through traps he knew were there in Raiders.

Scenes in KotCS were like feeble re dos of Raiders. When Mutt and Indy were in the graveyard catacombs, what was going on with that big moving disc? It didn't seem threatening or challenging. It just rocked a bit back and forth. It was such a waste. Whatever the significance was, it was lost on me. And those guys who protected the graveyard could do martial arts like Bruce Lee and only spat darts. They spent most of the time jumping around like rabbits, being mostly annoying. When Indy blows the dart back into the guys mouth, do we assume the dart is sharpened and tipped with poison on both ends or else it could not have worked? And then he just points the gun. Why didn't he let one shot off? It would have been more exciting and more threatening. He just stood there unscathed, unworried and nonchalant.

The thing is, I know why the makers did it this way, but it's just such a damned disappointment.

It was more a rhetorical question... as I don’t believe Raiders (or any Indy movie) was ever dark or gritty. I’ll always view them as lighthearted and entertaining romps.

I think if you were to ask 100 people to sum up Indiana Jones in a few words, 99 of them would more than likely say “fun”, “exciting” and “action-packed”… and not “dark”, “gritty” or “violent”. KOTCS, for all it’s faults, was (IMHO) trying to capture the “lighthearted”, “fun” and “action-packed” nature of the originals rather than the uber violent and serious/realistic tone some would have us think the originals were. Of course KOTCS has elements that are not effective as others. I agree that the cemetery/tomb scene could have been improved with a booby trap… but as a scene, I still think it's head and shoulders above the whole library/catacombs section of TLC… So for me KOTCS is a bit of a mixed bag, but ultimately it's for the things that it does better that make it worth watching e.g. the warehouse, doom town, Orellana's tomb, ants!. If one can't watch it for the things it does not so good, then that is of course ones choice too.
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:57 PM   #104
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It would be like you agreeing with me that you need all new glass on your automobile for a really cheap price and after it was over you said "wow! Thats awesome glass."


Wow! That's a stupid analogy.
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Old 03-13-2010, 01:04 PM   #105
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The words "dark" and "gritty" have been thrown around in this subject, and while I understand why, I think it's a little misplaced. Raiders wasn't really dark or gritty, but I think what we as fans miss about it's style of Indy was that it took the character a little more seriously
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Old 03-13-2010, 03:38 PM   #106
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OK, Raiders was gritty and ToD was dark. I don't see how someone could say Raiders wasn't gritty and ToD wasn't dark. I just looked up gritty and I reckon all three various meanings of gritty apply to Raiders: "Containing or covered with grit", "tough and uncompromising" and "showing courage and resolve". If only there was one word that meant "covered with grit, sand, dirt, spiderweb, scrapes and blood" then just the image of Indiana Jones in the midst of one of his adventures could be described with brevity and accuracy. "Tough and uncompromising" and "showing courage and resolve" are self evident too so I won't go into explaining them. So, Raiders was "gritty".

At the time ToD was released it was slammed by some critics for its images of human sacrifice and violence by the evil Thuggee cult worshipping the demonic Kali. I remember hearing Lucas, on a TV program at the time, defending the movie by saying,"It wasn't called Indiana Jones and Temple of Roses." He went on to explain how the movie virtually became darker and darker unwittingly, with more and more elements being added, so that almost as a surprise, they ended up with a very dark element. It seemed he was trying to say that it was almost unintentional. Regardless of causes, he's admitting it was a dark movie. The scene with the human sacrifice, heart ripping and lowering into lava, as well as the terrified anticipation of the victim, wasn't inspiring laughs at that point of the movie.

So, while the movies had elements also of lightheartedness and fun and escapist entertainment in differing doses, they also contained grit and darkness. I'm not saying what they should or should not have had, only what they did have. For Indy5, I hope they bring back more of the grit and some dark as well and not forgetting all of the other elements that made Indiana Jones what he is.
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Old 03-13-2010, 04:14 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
The scene with the human sacrifice, heart ripping and lowering into lava, as well as the terrified anticipation of the victim, wasn't inspiring laughs at that point of the movie.
That's _exactly_ one of the things I liked about this movie from very early on since I've seen it for the first time.

...And right after these dark, nail-biting scenes: 40 minutes of pure visual/musical/editorial roller-coaster!

ML
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Old 03-13-2010, 05:08 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Mickiana
OK, Raiders was gritty and ToD was dark. I don't see how someone could say Raiders wasn't gritty and ToD wasn't dark. I just looked up gritty and I reckon all three various meanings of gritty apply to Raiders: "Containing or covered with grit", "tough and uncompromising" and "showing courage and resolve". If only there was one word that meant "covered with grit, sand, dirt, spiderweb, scrapes and blood" then just the image of Indiana Jones in the midst of one of his adventures could be described with brevity and accuracy. "Tough and uncompromising" and "showing courage and resolve" are self evident too so I won't go into explaining them. So, Raiders was "gritty".

At the time ToD was released it was slammed by some critics for its images of human sacrifice and violence by the evil Thuggee cult worshipping the demonic Kali. I remember hearing Lucas, on a TV program at the time, defending the movie by saying,"It wasn't called Indiana Jones and Temple of Roses." He went on to explain how the movie virtually became darker and darker unwittingly, with more and more elements being added, so that almost as a surprise, they ended up with a very dark element. It seemed he was trying to say that it was almost unintentional. Regardless of causes, he's admitting it was a dark movie. The scene with the human sacrifice, heart ripping and lowering into lava, as well as the terrified anticipation of the victim, wasn't inspiring laughs at that point of the movie.

So, while the movies had elements also of lightheartedness and fun and escapist entertainment in differing doses, they also contained grit and darkness. I'm not saying what they should or should not have had, only what they did have. For Indy5, I hope they bring back more of the grit and some dark as well and not forgetting all of the other elements that made Indiana Jones what he is.

I can't say I agree Mickiana. IMHO, TOD is about as dark a movie as say, Return of the Jedi i.e. not at all (unless you are a child or a particularly sheltered and sensitive adult). I would consider The Dark Knight a 'dark' action/adventure movie. That's not to say one is particularly better than the other, as to each their own, but to describe TOD as 'dark', is to take the word too literally, when it's usually used figuratively to describe the overall tone of a movie.
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Old 03-13-2010, 05:47 PM   #109
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I had a premonition I'd hear from you, Darth. What time is it over there? I thought you guys might be asleep already and I'd have at least some window period to enjoy my opinion sitting up there unchallenged for a least a little while! Oscar Wilde wrote, "When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself." This is what's happening right now. Lucas et al are in accord with themselves, at least in this instance.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:35 AM   #110
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I had a premonition I'd hear from you, Darth. What time is it over there? I thought you guys might be asleep already and I'd have at least some window period to enjoy my opinion sitting up there unchallenged for a least a little while! Oscar Wilde wrote, "When critics disagree, the artist is in accord with himself." This is what's happening right now. Lucas et al are in accord with themselves, at least in this instance.

LOL.....
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:19 AM   #111
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It's all in the level of our desensitization. It's difficult to imagine there is a way to frame themes and outright on screen displays like child slavery/beatings, a starving population, (you may be able to separate yourselves but feeding on monkey brains, no matter, it wasn't humorous like the rest of the meal, it was f-ing creepy!), whipping children, (and graphically: Shorty), the whole Black Sleep and transformation...and of course the heart ripping/lava drop, without calling it "dark".

I can't say I agree at all, ToD is about as Light hearted ( ) as Psycho, (unless you are a serial killer or callous forsaken hermit). You would have to be an indifferent, hard, insensitive, detached, unemotional shell of a human being to slough off the manner of its presentation as NOT DARK!

Inserting Itchy and Scratchy type "humor" hardly "balances" the movie as they tried to present it...it just makes ToD schizophrenic, (and cause for much needed introspection).
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:49 AM   #112
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It's all in the level of our desensitization. It's difficult to imagine there is a way to frame themes and outright on screen displays like child slavery/beatings, a starving population, (you may be able to separate yourselves but feeding on monkey brains, no matter, it wasn't humorous like the rest of the meal, it was f-ing creepy!), whipping children, (and graphically: Shorty), the whole Black Sleep and transformation...and of course the heart ripping/lava drop, without calling it "dark".

I can't say I agree at all, ToD is about as Light hearted ( ) as Psycho, (unless you are a serial killer or callous forsaken hermit). You would have to be an indifferent, hard, insensitive, detached, unemotional shell of a human being to slough off the manner of its presentation as NOT DARK!

Inserting Itchy and Scratchy type "humor" hardly "balances" the movie as they tried to present it...it just makes ToD schizophrenic, (and cause for much needed introspection).

Schizophrenic is a good description of both Raiders and TOD. I've previously described both films as resembling black comedy. They are a mixture of cartoon violence, slapstick humour, gross out moments, and some more disturbing moments.

There is a level of unreality with all Indy films which allows them to get away with elements that wouldn't be out of place in a horror movie. TOD pushed the envelope further than the others, with the gross out meal, the insects, the heart ripping, and, of course, the flapping human skins. At the same time it revelled in childish comedy. Truly schizophrenic!
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:01 PM   #113
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Slavery, human sacrifice, adultery, disembowelment, mind control, resurrection from the dead… perhaps Brendan Fraser’s ‘The Mummy’, is truly a lot darker than I ever gave it credit for…
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:13 AM   #114
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Slavery, human sacrifice, adultery, disembowelment, mind control, resurrection from the dead… perhaps Brendan Fraser’s ‘The Mummy’, is truly a lot darker than I ever gave it credit for…

When it comes to films like the Mummy, (having never bothered with them), I'll HAVE to take your word on it! ( ). Up until know even your ramblings were better fodder than a Brendan Frasier Film. Please, don't tell us the credit you give Encino Man or George of the Jungle!
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:15 AM   #115
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When it comes to films like the Mummy, (having never bothered with them), I'll HAVE to take your word on it! ( ). Up until know even your ramblings were better fodder than a Brendan Frasier Film. Please, don't tell us the credit you give Encino Man or George of the Jungle!

The point being that perhaps one needs to watch more movies to give one a better frame of reference. TOD is as dark and disturbing as the other popcorn fodder that came before and after it. And if we are happy to label TOD as a themeatically dark and/or disturbing piece, then we fudge our baseline for defining/describing other movies (which may or may not do it more successfully).
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Old 03-17-2010, 02:20 PM   #116
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The point being that perhaps one needs to watch more movies to give one a better frame of reference. TOD is as dark and disturbing as the other popcorn fodder that came before and after it. And if we are happy to label TOD as a themeatically dark and/or disturbing piece, then we fudge our baseline for defining/describing other movies (which may or may not do it more successfully).

I think it's fair to say that TOD had it's darker moments, alongside some unreal cartoon comedy ones. Maybe these films just defy simple pigeon-holing - Raiders was innovative, as was it's uncharacteristic lead protagonist, and the prequel and sequels that followed are guided by elements of the original.

TOD is as disturbing as The Simpsons Movie - if not just for the scene of the noose bearing the dummy, indicating that Homer's friends and neighbours are getting ready to hang the Simpson family from Bart's treehouse, including little Maggie. In that regard this movie is more disturbing than The Mummy, given it's context and PG rating.
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Old 03-17-2010, 04:54 PM   #117
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I think it's fair to say that TOD had it's darker moments, alongside some unreal cartoon comedy ones. Maybe these films just defy simple pigeon-holing - Raiders was innovative, as was it's uncharacteristic lead protagonist, and the prequel and sequels that followed are guided by elements of the original.

TOD is as disturbing as The Simpsons Movie - if not just for the scene of the noose bearing the dummy, indicating that Homer's friends and neighbours are getting ready to hang the Simpson family from Bart's treehouse, including little Maggie. In that regard this movie is more disturbing than The Mummy, given it's context and PG rating.

TOD does have it's moments of darkness... and your example of The Simpsons is apt. I.e. TOD has more elements of dark humour than it does brooding drama. But ultimately it's designed to be a fairly lightweight, rollercoaster of an action movie, with a few scares thrown in along the way.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:28 AM   #118
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Getting back onto the topic of nuked fridges, I was just reading the 1981 Back to the Future original draft script, which Wilhelm referred to a while ago in this thread.

The KOTCS script is pretty close to the 1981 unused script.

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/...nal_draft.html

There's a Doom Town with The Howdy Doody Show playing on TV, the lead-lined fridge, the mannequins, and of course the test bomb.

In the 1981 BTTF script Doc Brown says:

"This is where they're gonna drop the bomb, right? Well, Philco wants to find out what it does to their refrigerator.

As the countdown is running, Brown tells Marty:

"Marty, it's over. Do you understand? It's over. Now I want you to get in the refrig---the time chamber, and we'll just pray that the lead lining--- "

Just like Indy, Marty climbs inside and closes the door just as the countdown runs out.

So, if it feels out of place in an Indiana Jones movie to some viewers, then it's probably because it was originally created for another purpose. The BTTF fridge was a time machine, so didn't need to go aerial as Indy's fridge had to, to escape the blast.

Last edited by Montana Smith : 03-19-2010 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 06:41 AM   #119
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Getting back onto the topic of nuked fridges, I was just reading the 1981 Back to the Future original draft script, which Stoo referred to a while ago in this thread.
Must have been someone else, Montana. I knew about that fact but have never referred to it here.

Edit: Too quick on the draw as I see you've already realized that.
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There's a Doom Town with The Howdy Doody Show playing on TV,
Woah! Now that I did not know.
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Old 03-19-2010, 07:01 AM   #120
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Must have been someone else, Montana. I knew about that fact but have never referred to it here.

Edit: Too quick on the draw as I see you've already realized that.

Sorry, Stoo. It was Wilhelm. It took me ages to edit the error in my post as my internet connection has become very unpredictable, with pages hanging and refusing to open. (I think it's something to do with Internet Explorer 8).

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Woah! Now that I did not know.

The 1981 BTTF draft begins with a quote from Carl Sagan, then this quote:

“Hey, kids, what time is it?”
--Buffalo Bob Smith
The Howdy Doody Show

Later, when Marty is in the fake town:

INT. TRACT HOUSE – MARTY

Amazingly enough, it looks like a model home---there is furniture, magazines on the tables, a TV, a radio.

In the dining room, more MANNEQUINS are seated at the table, which is set with full place settings. Marty wanders through the house, chuckling at the idiocy of it all.

MARTY

goes into the kitchen and has a look around. There is a Frigidaire refrigerator---Marty opens it and discovers it is well stocked with food, including meat, cheese, milk, eggs, Coke, fruit and vegetables. Marty takes an apple, has a bite, and returns to the living room.

INT. LIVING ROOM

Marty turns on the TV. Snow. He switches channels and finally tunes in a picture---the “Howdy Doody” Show. Marty watches Clarabell dancing around and shakes his head.

MARTY

The “fabulous fifties."
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Old 03-19-2010, 04:03 PM   #121
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But the genesis for both scenes (Bttf and Kotcs) is the movie "The Atomic Kid" (1954) with Mickey Rooney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWGsryWhxIA
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:00 AM   #122
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But the genesis for both scenes (Bttf and Kotcs) is the movie "The Atomic Kid" (1954) with Mickey Rooney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWGsryWhxIA

I understand that from the earlier posts, Wilhelm. I was making some searches to see if I could find Blake Edwards' script for The Atomic Kid, but couldn't find it.

The Rooney film gives the premise for the 1981 BTTF, which then seems to be the direct inspiration for KOTCS.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:43 PM   #123
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Bob Gale says in the special Empire magazine about Bttf that the idea of the Doomtown comes from the first draft of Back to the Future.

BOB GALE: "We were fascinated by all the nuclear tests. They would build these fake little town in the desert and blow them up. If you remember the opening of Indiana Jones IV, where do you think that idea came from? It came from Back to the Future"

It will be interesting to know if that idea comes from Spielberg for the SaucerMen script or from George Lucas "inspired" by Spielberg telling him about the refridgerator from Bttf and his memories watching "The Atomic Kid" in the 50s. And what thinks Zemeckis about "stealing" him the fridge idea, maybe Spielberg asked him for permission for using the concept or he forgot where that came from 20 years after.

But I don't think that Zemeckis liked Indy 4:

ZEMECKIS: "There's no Bttf IV and there shouldn't be a Bttf IV. I don't think there should ever be a fourth sequel to anything. Three is a dramatic number. It's a three act structure. Four is even. Four is boring."

EMPIRE MAGAZINE APRIL 2010.
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Old 03-20-2010, 05:53 PM   #124
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I have to say, and maybe it's nothing, but at 1:21 in that video when Rooney says "At least they've got a phone" while walking into a room full of mannequins, it was eerily similar to Indy's "Have you got a phone" or whatever it was he said in KOTCS's doomtown house.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:12 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Wilhelm
Bob Gale says in the special Empire magazine about Bttf that the idea of the Doomtown comes from the first draft of Back to the Future.

BOB GALE: "We were fascinated by all the nuclear tests. They would build these fake little town in the desert and blow them up. If you remember the opening of Indiana Jones IV, where do you think that idea came from? It came from Back to the Future"

It will be interesting to know if that idea comes from Spielberg for the SaucerMen script or from George Lucas "inspired" by Spielberg telling him about the refridgerator from Bttf and his memories watching "The Atomic Kid" in the 50s. And what thinks Zemeckis about "stealing" him the fridge idea, maybe Spielberg asked him for permission for using the concept or he forgot where that came from 20 years after.

But I don't think that Zemeckis liked Indy 4:

ZEMECKIS: "There's no Bttf IV and there shouldn't be a Bttf IV. I don't think there should ever be a fourth sequel to anything. Three is a dramatic number. It's a three act structure. Four is even. Four is boring."

EMPIRE MAGAZINE APRIL 2010.

The thing is, what can they do for BTTF IV? They can';t bring back Fox and I doubt that Thomas Wilson, Lea Thompson, Chris Lloyd and the rest of the cast are interestd in returning right now. Since last i recall, Lloyd has pretty much retired
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